Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

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Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Soundwave Guy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:26 pm UTC

A slain toddler tried to stop her mother and stepfather from beating her to death by reaching out to her mother and saying, "I love you," a prosecutor told jurors Tuesday.

The pleas from 2-year-old Riley Ann Sawyers didn't stop her mother, Kimberly Trenor, from continuing to brutalize her, assistant district attorney Kayla Allen said in her opening statement at Trenor's murder trial. But defense attorney Tommy Stickler Jr. told the jury that Trenor, 20, never intended to kill her daughter in 2007 and that things just "spun out of control."

Read The Full Story Here

So sad :(
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Brooklynxman » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:42 pm UTC

first reaction: Holy F**K

This is why people shouldn't have kids that young.
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby TaintedDeity » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

19 and 25 really isn;t that young for children.
I'm also curious as to how they knew the child was saying "i love you" without the parents telling them.
That's pretty emotionless if you can recount the fact your own child is saying that at the time of you beating them to death.
At any rate, it;s a sad chain of events.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby The Reaper » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:15 pm UTC

Oh east texas, you're so silly. :\

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Indon » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:42 pm UTC

The Article. Like seriously, WTF? wrote:During her opening statement, Allen detailed for jurors the day that she said Riley Ann died for forgetting to say "please" and "yes, sir."

Allen said that on July 25, 2007, Trenor and Zeigler disciplined Riley by whipping her with a belt, pushing her head against a pillow and holding her head under water. She said Zeigler grabbed Riley and tossed her across the room, fracturing her skull. An autopsy concluded the skull fractures caused her death.

I'm trying reeeeeeally hard not to take this as vindication that violent discipline is wrong, if only because these people are clearly ridiculously batshit insane and probably not indicative of a general case.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Bakemaster » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:54 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I'm also curious as to how they knew the child was saying "i love you" without the parents telling them.

It's a Fox affiliate; I smell bullshit.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby ATCG » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:56 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:It's a Fox affiliate; I smell bullshit.

Keep in mind this is just Fox passing along a report from the Associated Press. Any question of credibility should be made against Trenor's prosecution: they're the ones making the claim.

Heartbreaking in any event.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Bakemaster » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:00 pm UTC

It's still the responsibility of the newspaper to mention whether any evidence has been presented to support the claim which is featured in their headline—that goes for Fox and the AP both.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Jack Saladin » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:22 pm UTC

Indon wrote:
The Article. Like seriously, WTF? wrote:During her opening statement, Allen detailed for jurors the day that she said Riley Ann died for forgetting to say "please" and "yes, sir."

Allen said that on July 25, 2007, Trenor and Zeigler disciplined Riley by whipping her with a belt, pushing her head against a pillow and holding her head under water. She said Zeigler grabbed Riley and tossed her across the room, fracturing her skull. An autopsy concluded the skull fractures caused her death.

I'm trying reeeeeeally hard not to take this as vindication that violent discipline is wrong, if only because these people are clearly ridiculously batshit insane and probably not indicative of a general case.

Meh, it's all on the same continuum. There's no excuse for substituting discipline with violence of any degree.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Sero » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:32 pm UTC

I'd have to agree. I think there is a distinction between corporal punishment and violent punishment, and the former may be effective when used properly, but...Prior to making the distinction, I used google's 'define:' function on 'violent', and any time the punishment of a child could be characterized in such a way, something is terribly wrong. It's tragic.

I note the article saying she married him after meeting him through an unspecified online game. I'm going to go into a bloody rage if there's an attempt to pin this sort of depravity on video games.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Soundwave Guy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:52 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:It's still the responsibility of the newspaper to mention whether any evidence has been presented to support the claim which is featured in their headline—that goes for Fox and the AP both.


The Associated Press distributes content to many newspapers, radio stations and television stations -- including CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX affiliates and their networked counterparts. FOX is not a newspaper. FOX is a television network. Not all FOX affiliates are like FOX news; in this case, this FOX affiliate is owned and operated by Tribune Broadcasting, which operates many more newspapers than television stations.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:06 am UTC

I knew someone would get all pedantic about "newspaper" but couldn't be arsed to find a better word. It doesn't matter what the word is, or who owns the station. It still smells like bullshit media hijinks.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:28 am UTC

I swear to god, this is why there needs to be education about children's development. A 2 year old wouldn't be able to understand how her actions effected her future sufficiently to modify her behaviour. This is just so completely fucked up... Thanks OP, this is exactly what I needed...
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:33 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:It still smells like bullshit media hijinks.

Yes, this is what I thought as I read it in the article. And I even read it twice to find out how the hell they know that.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby ATCG » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:42 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:
Bakemaster wrote:It still smells like bullshit media hijinks.

Yes, this is what I thought as I read it in the article. And I even read it twice to find out how the hell they know that.

How "bullshit media hijinks" can be read into a report of matters of public record is baffling.

By "they", I have to assume you are referring to assistant district attorney Kayla Allen. The maligned AP reporter is simply doing his job by reporting the claims and counterclaims made by the prosecution and the defense in their opening statements. The trial now moves on to its evidentiary phase during which each side will try to back up the claims made in the opening. The testimony that emerges should tell us, along with the jury, how - or if - the prosecution knows what they claim to know.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Orca » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:05 am UTC

All I can say is this just justifies even more in my mind why violence against children as discipline is generally a *bad* idea. Especially for small children. Nonetheless, regardless of the source of the material if anyone beats a small child to death for any reason, it still is sad and should be considered murder or at least manslaughter.
don't think there is much doubt that the parents killed the child, which in the end is all that matters for the court case.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:15 am UTC

Orca wrote:All I can say is this just justifies even more in my mind why violence against children as discipline is generally a *bad* idea.

There is a large difference between a spanking and outright violence.

Children don't understand the reasons they're not supposed to do a lot of things. And they don't give a fuck. But if doing something means a smack on the ass, they're likely to listen when you tell them not to do it.

This isn't a case of a parent disciplining a child to death. It's a case of a parent LOSING THEIR FUCKING SHIT AND THROWING THEIR KID AT A WALL.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Lt Greatsocks » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:55 am UTC

That article is the first thing I've ever read that has actually made me feel sick. I can't even believe that. Throwing a toddler? Jesus christ, I hope those parents spend the rest of their natural lives in prison.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:42 am UTC

Well, I was under the impression that lawyers can say pretty much whatever they want in opening and closing statements, but after a little research it appears the opening statement has to be based on facts that will be proved by evidence presented later in the course of the trial. So the lack of a clear explanation of the headline is reasonable. The story's still a sensationalist pile.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Marbas » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:08 am UTC

The image. It makes me want to cry. But my skepticism makes me too vexed to empathize.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Clumpy » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:15 am UTC

Honestly, childrearing takes supreme patience and understanding, something that many people don't have regardless of age. A kid is going to be in your grill a good 16 hours a day, and you've gotta make some pretty severe mental adjustments for life with children or you're not gonna hold yourself together.

But even people who can't get over the stress have no excuse for taking it out on their kids. I feel like I read this exact story every couple of months, and it's pretty disheartening.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Pirate.Bondage » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:59 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:There is a large difference between a spanking and outright violence.


So many people don't understand this. I have nothing against spankin but when you start actually hitting and hurting a child, that's just not right.

And who the fuck throws their child at a wall?
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:52 pm UTC

Pirate.Bondage wrote:And who the fuck throws their child at a wall?

I think my mom might have.

She either did or only almost did.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:27 am UTC

At least it happened in Texas.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:39 am UTC

I live in Massachusetts... when I was growing up there was a notable case (for our town anyway) of a man who beat his 9-month old daughter to death. This happens everywhere. And it's one of those things I no longer really look at and get outraged by, because then I really would just be outraged all the time. But I do look at those parents and think of them like hamsters, and not humans. I had hamsters growing up. Sometimes they just ate their babies. Hamsters, after all, do not have birth control. I suppose if you are a human and do something like this, I then get to revoke your humanity.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Clumpy » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:48 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:At least it happened in Texas.


???

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby roc314 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:50 am UTC

Clumpy wrote:
BlackSails wrote:At least it happened in Texas.
???
The explanation is simple. By being in Texas, everyone in the better and more civilized parts of the nation/world can pretend that such problems don't exist in our sphere of existence, and thus ignore any such problems that might be outside of Texas.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Grop » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:59 am UTC

Frank zappa wrote:It can't happen here
[...]
Who could imagine that they would freak out somewhere in kansas...

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Soundwave Guy » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:11 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:At least it happened in Texas.


Because unlike babies from other parts of the world, Texas babies bounce.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:01 pm UTC

Not what I mean.

Im glad it happened in Texas because Texas still has the death penalty.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Woofsie » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Not what I mean.

Im glad it happened in Texas because Texas still has the death penalty.


Prosecutors aren't seeking the death penalty here, because they don't think they can prove the parents will re-offend.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby lesliesage » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby wst » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:31 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:
Orca wrote:All I can say is this just justifies even more in my mind why violence against children as discipline is generally a *bad* idea.

There is a large difference between a spanking and outright violence.

Children don't understand the reasons they're not supposed to do a lot of things. And they don't give a fuck. But if doing something means a smack on the ass, they're likely to listen when you tell them not to do it.
This. Small children only understand things that benefit themselves, until they're about 5, usually. It just is. If they get punished immediately with a smack, they think 'Doing x = pain'. If you just shout at them, they'll ignore you.

Losing it is nasty shit however you put it though. Bummer.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby lesliesage » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:22 pm UTC

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Rysto » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:38 pm UTC

"Mommy, don't!"

-- Last words of 12-year-old Karissa Boudreau, who was murdered by her mother after the mother's boyfriend threatened to leave her if she didn't get rid of her daughter.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Jack Saladin » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:47 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:I'm against all corporal punishment. There is ample evidence that it teaches kids that physical force is appropriate control. And when a kid is too young to be reasoned with, they're also too young to understand why they're being struck, and too young to modify their behavior in any way besides the way animals do, by cowering. (Parents who spank mistake a fearful child for an obedient one). Geoffrey Canada has put together a huge amount of data on child development in Harlem: when parents stop hitting kids or demanding obedience and instead speak volumes more words to them, these underprivileged urban black kids started outperforming the state average. Finally, there's this argument about whether children are more like adults or more like dogs. But... it's illegal for adults to hit other adults and dogs. Why on earth is it ok to smack a child's face or butt when it's illegal for my boss to smack me? I mean, I would be mostly capable of understanding it and removing myself from the situation. It's either ok to control people and communicate with force or it's not.

This. Exactly this on every single word and sentence. No, there's no difference between "corporal punishment" and "violence". No, there's no point where violence suddenly becomes OK because you think you're doing in light enough. Violence is never OK, not against anyone, and least of all against children.

We had a recent law change here in NZ that meant you could no longer plead "reasonable force" when accused of beating your child with an extension cord. Basically, up 'til then, the only living being in the country you were allowed to physically attack was your own children. Hit an adult? Assault. Hit a dog? Animal cruelty. Hit a defenceless child? Parenting!

Of course, mass RAGE ensued. People called it the "nanny state" interfering with their lives, and the voters still hold a grudge over it against the then government, Labour, who subsequently lost the '08 election. Seems like people will get worked up like nothing else to protect their right to beat children. It was horrifying to see just how much of my country really thought it was 100% totally reasonable to use violence to bring your kids up.

And this was before, after, and during a whole bunch of really high profile local child abuse cases where several children have been killed in ways, that I'm afraid to say, make the article in this thread seem humane in comparison. WTF, NZ. WTF.

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby lesliesage » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:06 pm UTC

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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:39 am UTC

Do these studies factor in whether or not the parents explain reasons to the kids at all? Obviously spankings aren't going to TEACH anything, but if you're, say, at a restaurant, and your kid is having a shit fit, he won't be in the mindset to understand "You please have to be quiet so other people can enjoy their meals." I would think a brisk whack and "Keep bloody quiet" would suffice for the dinner table, with an explanation later.

(I actually am honestly curious if you're referencing stuff that studies physical punishment as the preferred method, a temporary quick fix, or just plain any at all.)
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby scrovak » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:36 am UTC

Kimberly Trenor, 20, detailed the abuse in a videotaped statement played for jurors during the first day of her capital murder trial.


It would seem to me like the mother said that's what her daughter did. Whether baby Grace said it to avoid being flung at a wall or because she thought that's what her mother wanted remains to be seen, but I don't see how so many people can skip part of the article, claim media bullshit/sensationalist trickery without comprehending the horrificness of what the woman did. Or the fact that the woman remembered her daughter saying that.

Also remember, 2 y/o can be anywhere from 25-35 months.
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Re: Sad: Murdered Tot's Last Words Were "I Love You"

Postby lesliesage » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:40 am UTC

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