Obama Cuts the Bullshit

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Bakemaster » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:33 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:The only thing I had a problem with was this line of logic, and, incidentally, it was the only thing I argued against:

1. Europe is better than U.S. in certain areas.
2. Europe does their government differently.
3. Therefore, the U.S. would be better if they made their government like Europe's.

The above is fallacious because it's not an accurate reduction of the arguments presented by your opponents in the thread. You're focusing on the most broad and insubstantial generalizations that can be interpreted from their positions, and in doing so you're ignoring all the important parts. It's no wonder that the result is a non sequitur, when you've thrown out all the meat; it's like reading only the first and last paragraphs of a dissertation.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:21 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Belial » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:34 pm UTC

Ann Coulter: continuously proving to me that it's not possible to hate someone to death.

(Because I would have done it already)
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby william » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:36 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Ann Coulter: continuously proving to me that it's not possible to hate someone to death.

(Because I would have done it already)

You, and every thinking human being who gets interested in politics enough to read Ann Coulter quotes.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Marbas » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:03 pm UTC

Southerners are truly our warrior class.


What does this even mean?

Anne Coulter...how are you so terrible at logic?
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby william » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:14 pm UTC

Marbas wrote:
Southerners are truly our warrior class.


What does this even mean?

Anne Coulter...how are you so terrible at logic?

It means that the South has the largest concentration of stupid people, except that Ann Coulter, being someone who revels in stupidity, loves this.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby EsotericWombat » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:18 pm UTC

Interestingly enough, that was why the South thought that they were going to win the Civil War.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:27 pm UTC

So, no thread about Gregg yet. Reactions? Opinions?
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:35 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Lumpy » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:48 pm UTC

So, no thread about Gregg yet. Reactions? Opinions?


From what I understand, Sen. Gregg spent a week saying he supports the stimulus bill and would be glad to co-operate with Obama in a bipartisan fashion, after all the lovey dovey bipartisan feelings created by the Democratic governor promising to appoint a Republican in Gregg's place to not impede the President's ability to select who he considers best for the job.

He was the one that first approached the administration with the idea, promising he could support the administration's policies with regard to the stimulus bill whole-heartedly. Then a week later he withdraws, saying that he and the administration have "irresolvable differences," at a press conference happening at the exact same time Obama appeared at a Caterpillar construction company plant to promote the stimulus bill.

He didn't even tell Obama he was withdrawing before he went before the press to announce it. I think that he was just looking to bolster his political status, or someone blackmailed him with his staffer's Abramoff ties, but now despite everything mentioned in the first paragraph, and Obama having two Republicans in his Cabinet already, Republicans such as Karl Rove are saying this is an example of Obama saying it's "his way or the highway."

Rahm Emanuel, White House Chief of Staff, learned from this that the administration has focused way too much on bipartisanship and should have focused more on selling the finer points of the stimulus package. I agree, because Obama has built up expectations way too much. Despite the fact that three Republican cabinet members in a Democratic administration would have been unprecedented, I predict that if Obama doesn't pick another Republican to be Commerce Secretary, Republicans will act as if it's the fall of western civilization.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:09 pm UTC

My initial reaction was that it looked like either intentional sabotage on Gregg's part, and/or pressure on him from the GOP to that purpose.

But every time I start thinking about what the GOP is doing in terms of treason, I can't help but think about how during the past eight years the situation has been somewhat reversed, and wondering if this is just the other side of the same coin.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby slow2learn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

As for Gregg. I think the situation turned out for the best. President Obama deserves people who will back him up 100% on his staff.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:49 pm UTC

slow2learn wrote:As for Gregg. I think the situation turned out for the best. President Obama deserves people who will back him up 100% on his staff.

No, he deserves people who will tell him when he's wrong.

America does not need yes-men in the president's cabinet.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby EsotericWombat » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:58 pm UTC

From what I hear, he was pressured by Republican colleagues when Obama decided to remove the Census from the Department of Commerce, based partially on concerns that the Congressional Black Caucus had with Gregg's likely treatise of the Census. He's consistently opposed funding for the census, which troubled them (and rightly so) because minorities are historically undercounted, and cutting funding means that they're more likely to be undercounted.

The Republicans have cast this as "Politicizing the Census" as opposed to "Taking the necessary steps to not get fuckall of burnt by a bipartisan gesture."
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby slow2learn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:02 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:
slow2learn wrote:As for Gregg. I think the situation turned out for the best. President Obama deserves people who will back him up 100% on his staff.

No, he deserves people who will tell him when he's wrong.

America does not need yes-men in the president's cabinet.


Okay, yes. But they need to agree on certain things. President Obama has decided that the stimulus package is the way to go. Someone who directly disagrees with that isn't going to be much help to him.

Unless we consider that Obama has shit clue what to do and is doing the stimulus because he's following the popular trend with congress. Which is a bit of a reach.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:No, he deserves people who will tell him when he's wrong.

America does not need yes-men in the president's cabinet.

Hate Speech Alert! Hate Speech Alert! Questioning Obama Hurts America. Why do you hate America!?!

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:25 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:35 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:I definitely don't think it's sabotage on Gregg's part,

Do people actually think that? I thought the circumstances surrounding this were pretty clear.
1) White House nominates Gregg as a gambit for a Senate seat/to fulfill Obama's promise of a bipartisan cabinet.
2) Gregg maneuvers situation to keep his Senate seat Red.
3) White House makes it clear Gregg will have no power, including Census.
4) Gregg withdraws.

Seems like the only explanation to fit the facts. I'm curious to see if Rahm Emanuel will hang on to the census or give it to the new, likely blue, Commerce Secretary.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:46 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
lesliesage wrote:I definitely don't think it's sabotage on Gregg's part,
Do people actually think that? I thought the circumstances surrounding this were pretty clear.
1) White House nominates Gregg as a gambit for a Senate seat/to fulfill Obama's promise of a bipartisan cabinet.
2) Gregg maneuvers situation to keep his Senate seat Red.
3) White House makes it clear Gregg will have no power, including Census.
4) Gregg withdraws.

Seems like the only explanation to fit the facts. I'm curious to see if Rahm Emanuel will hang on to the census or give it to the new, likely blue, Commerce Secretary.
I agree; I was contemplating Bakemaster's post, but he was just analyzing his internal knee-jerk, not putting forth a theory. As for 2, though, I don't think there was ever actually a notion, a plan, a chance of getting a Democratic senator by appointing Gregg. I don't think there was maneuvering so much as Gregg and Obama both going, "ok everyone, obviously that wouldn't fly."

Edit: I'm also very curious as to whether the census would go to a D-Commerce Secretary.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:04 pm UTC

This article makes it seem as if Obama offered first, then everyone said "WTF!?!" After the offer Gregg and the governor worked out their deal. Can't say for sure, but it could've been a power play, and why else nominate a Republican from a Democratic state who you clearly disagree with?

Seems like an Emanuel gambit to me.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Lumpy » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:17 pm UTC

A third article claims that Gregg did not approach Obama, nor did Obama approach Gregg, but Harry Reid approached Obama about Gregg as Commerce Secretary.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... r-the-job/

Maybe the ambiguity of the way that Reid brought up the discussion with either party probably allows both to think they're entitled to say the other made the first move.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:22 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby william » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:23 pm UTC

Is it just me or is Harry Reid a jackass?
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby slow2learn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

william wrote:Is it just me or are polititians jackasses?


Corrected

Thats their job. I think Harry Reid has done a good job of being a democrat. He's been very sucessful. To consider him a saint would probably also negate his political power.

As a side note, i think it would be great to start some discusion about specific politians. Especially those that arnt in the news much. Looking at what they do with their power is rather informataive, and if you can keep it away from the news announcements and reelections you might be able to cut out the partisian bull shit.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Garm » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:03 pm UTC

slow2learn wrote:
william wrote:Is it just me or are polititians jackasses?


Corrected

Thats their job. I think Harry Reid has done a good job of being a democrat. He's been very sucessful. To consider him a saint would probably also negate his political power.

As a side note, i think it would be great to start some discusion about specific politians. Especially those that arnt in the news much. Looking at what they do with their power is rather informataive, and if you can keep it away from the news announcements and reelections you might be able to cut out the partisian bull shit.


I disagree with your correction and your assertion that Reid has done a good job.

First, there are principled politicians out there, few and far between as they may be. We've had a particularly bad batch the last few years. I'm a big fan of Russ Feingold of Wisconsin. That guy is a total stud.

Second, Reid only fits the definition of a good democrat if you consider democrats to be spineless fools who want to rubber stamp the legislation of the worst president in the history of the world. Reid is awful. He's a push over and spends more time trying to pander to the media by hushing up dissent in his own party than he is concerned with forwarding democratic programs.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:41 am UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:27 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Lumpy » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:23 am UTC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29208201/

Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., put it more bluntly: "If this is going to be bipartisanship, the country's screwed."


I don't think that sentence itself sounds very bipartisan.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby lesliesage » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:12 pm UTC

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:33 pm UTC

Shit, if that's the case, than I'm entitled to three quarters of a million dollars, a hot wife, and an unlimited supply of those chocolate mints they give you at Olive Garden.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:40 pm UTC

Dibs on the breadsticks.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:Dibs on the breadsticks.

They're already unlimited. Try again.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Nougatrocity wrote:Dibs on the breadsticks.

They're already unlimited. Try again.

No, you have to go there to get them, and there isn't one near me anymore.

I want a dispenser on the wall, next to my calendar.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:21 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Nougatrocity wrote:Dibs on the breadsticks.

They're already unlimited. Try again.

No, you have to go there to get them, and there isn't one near me anymore.

I want a dispenser on the wall, next to my calendar.

Well in that case. WHERE THE FUCK IS OUR OLIVE GARDEN BREADSTICK DISPENSER at in the stimulus package? Fuck my previous insistence on bullet trains, this is more important.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Chfan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

I'd then be entitled to supreme overlordship of the earth.
Just FYI, the guy isn't avatar isn't me. But he seems pretty cool.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Indon » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:09 pm UTC

I didn't notice anyone touching on this point back in the education tangent, so I might as well. My follow-up with the overall argument ties back to it anyway.

MoghLiechty2 wrote:You're darn right money's getting wasted. If there's on thing we should realize it's that pouring more money into the current system isn't helping. Something has got to be done with how it's getting spent. Privatization/vouchers anyone?


Not so fast.

Dumping money into a system nobody cares enough about to police is still a superior option than dumping money into a system nobody cares enough about to police and which exists to accumulate as much money as possible.

The current private school system is dominated by people who are spending 100% (theoretically) of their own (usually ample) money, and so would be expected to care far more than, well, most Americans about education - otherwise they'd just use the public school system.

That's what makes private schools have some degree of quality - because the customers actually care. A market in which the customers don't care about product quality (read: most of the people currently in public school, and probably some in private school too) can not be expected to produce quality product, because there would be no selection pressure in favor of quality product.

Privatization does not magically make product better. People caring about the product makes it better, private or otherwise (compare the quality of the US military compared to the military forces of other nations, in terms not only of capability but of discipline, morale, and other factors that money doesn't affect), and America lacks that for education.

Or, in short, American public education sucks because most of us don't give a shit - and frankly even if we did we wouldn't be able to recognize a good education if it slapped us in the face. So if you took all those people and put them in private education, then private education would end up sucking too, for the exact same reason.

That's a good example of why republican politics are thought of as senseless, partisan dogmatics. The thought there is that privatization makes things better. But there's no explanation - apparently people are to think this mechanism is some form of free-market magic. Actual analysis of the issue shows that there are actual reasons behind product quality or the lack thereof, rather than buzzwords, and that the republican platform isn't simply wrong - it's not even wrong, it's completely inapplicable as a useful decision-making process.

I think it's unfortunate what happened to the republican party. They've basically become the charicature of neoconservatism, a political party that exists solely as a joke. And people are very, very slowly starting to figure this out. Obama should abandon the party as they deserve to be abandoned, but he's a politician, and can do so no faster than the speed at which everyone realizes the Grand Old Party is just about literally incapable of useful contribution to the nation's government anymore.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Habz » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:41 pm UTC

Indon wrote:(compare the quality of the US military compared to the military forces of other nations, in terms not only of capability but of discipline, morale, and other factors that money doesn't affect)


Euhm... You know, statements like that tend to sound a bit stingy to some of us. And also, wrong.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:55 am UTC

I think the general theory with vouchers is more that it provides alternatives for people who do care but don't have enough money to personally pay for private school in lieu of the public one's they have to fund either way; in a sense the current system doesn't really reward caring as showing an interest in a child's education will not have a terribly large effect on a school as a whole, and any problems within the school cannot be solved quickly when only the government has a say. Private schools would still be policed, just not run by the state. There's no guarantee that it would really work, but I do not see any significant risk of a failure that leaves us worse off then we were.

Indon wrote:I think it's unfortunate what happened to the republican party. They've basically become the charicature of neoconservatism, a political party that exists solely as a joke. And people are very, very slowly starting to figure this out. Obama should abandon the party as they deserve to be abandoned, but he's a politician, and can do so no faster than the speed at which everyone realizes the Grand Old Party is just about literally incapable of useful contribution to the nation's government anymore.

I'm not sure if this is entirely the right approach to take. An effective single party government would be a disaster, I don't think that can really be contested. The GOP is in shambles at the moment, but the answer does not lie in outright ignorance and scorn being directed towards them, that will just strengthen their otherwise failing condition. Christian conservatism seems to have largely failed, and the remaining neocon elements certainly are a joke. However, this will probably lead to an improved party (eventually), and in the meantime I see little reason to so engender divisive politics; we'd be much better off without it in the long term even if it seems painful in the short.

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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby Malice » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:35 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:
Indon wrote:I think it's unfortunate what happened to the republican party. They've basically become the charicature of neoconservatism, a political party that exists solely as a joke. And people are very, very slowly starting to figure this out. Obama should abandon the party as they deserve to be abandoned, but he's a politician, and can do so no faster than the speed at which everyone realizes the Grand Old Party is just about literally incapable of useful contribution to the nation's government anymore.

I'm not sure if this is entirely the right approach to take. An effective single party government would be a disaster, I don't think that can really be contested. The GOP is in shambles at the moment, but the answer does not lie in outright ignorance and scorn being directed towards them, that will just strengthen their otherwise failing condition. Christian conservatism seems to have largely failed, and the remaining neocon elements certainly are a joke. However, this will probably lead to an improved party (eventually), and in the meantime I see little reason to so engender divisive politics; we'd be much better off without it in the long term even if it seems painful in the short.


Just because two parties is a good idea doesn't mean this party has to be one of them.
And you must be talking about the really long term, because they've already done quite a bit to fuck up the bill containing funding for infrastructure that will be around for decades. Government does things that have lasting effects and the sooner we excise the people screwing that up the better.
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Re: Obama Cuts the Bullshit

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:19 am UTC

What he said. There's been significant tension between moderate Democrats and those more to the left since the Clinton administration. With a GOP in exile, a popular Democrat in the White House, and a brand spanking new Congressional Populist Caucus, It isn't hard to imagine a non-trivial third party splitting off (but still caucusing with Democrats on key issues).

Socialists and Libertarians (here I'm not referring to the Republican Reject Party) are distinct from the GOP in that they actually have something to offer the public discourse. The Republicans are bad news. Old garbage. Fuck them.
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