More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

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More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:37 pm UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/mobile/bbc_news/england/789/78989/story7898972.shtml

Another front in the war we saw over at the thread about Wilders. Are there differences between this case and that one? I would say that the Westboro Baptist Church promotes violence more overtly than Wilders, but is either platform something that should be banned outright?
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby natraj » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:39 pm UTC

Shirly Phelps-Roper, in the article wrote:"Unless they intend to begin checking the bare backsides of every person coming into that country to find that tattoo that says 'Property of WBC' - they will have no way of identifying who is from WBC."


Man. I really wish the WBC actually gave its members that tattoo. That would be great.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:42 pm UTC

How many of them are there? Like 70? That has to be a hell of a lot easier to watch than America's 2500-name No Fly List.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:17 pm UTC

Once again. This is fucking stupid. The WBC fucktards are the best argument against the religious right that has ever existed.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Mr Pete » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:18 pm UTC

If any of them do arrive and protest their names would be taken down for future reference anyway.

Which means their protest is a one time thing, not as if the WBC is growing at any real rate, what with it being just a few families.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Gelsamel » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:51 pm UTC

Where do they actually get the money to finance all these travels and shit?
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

Law suits. Their "career" is basically taunting folks into attacking them, suing their attackers, and living off the amount received.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Gelsamel » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:58 pm UTC

Seriously? If that's true... that's kind of fucked.

On one hand, I despise the restriction of free speech. On the other hand I hate these douchebags.

Can this ban on entering the country be seen as an extension of the public social shunning of them? I don't think it can.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:59 pm UTC

By all accounts I've heard, seriously, that's their main source of income.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Decker » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:02 pm UTC

So it's an actual case of "Ignore it and it will go away"?
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:03 pm UTC

Not sure, they must have SOME jobs, since they had to have had funds to start up this mess. I prefer to think of it as "burn it and it will run away screaming while on fire."
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

Decker wrote:So it's an actual case of "Ignore it and it will go away"?


You should see the BBC documentary where they send one of their people to spend time with WBC for a while. Their kids won't even talk about dating and honestly think that thoughts of dating are bad because it's not "God's plan for them". They simply ignore logic about the fact that their parents must have dated, or how are they ever going to get married if they don't date.

So, basically, yeah. Ignore them and they'll die out in a generation or two.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:31 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
Decker wrote:So it's an actual case of "Ignore it and it will go away"?


You should see the BBC documentary where they send one of their people to spend time with WBC for a while. Their kids won't even talk about dating and honestly think that thoughts of dating are bad because it's not "God's plan for them". They simply ignore logic about the fact that their parents must have dated, or how are they ever going to get married if they don't date.

So, basically, yeah. Ignore them and they'll die out in a generation or two.

At some point in time, the animal lusts will get them, and they'll turn towards the Great Satan. Hail Satan!

-snicker-

But they'll probably survive to raise and brainwash their children as well, because "god wanted them to have a baby, now". I'm starting to think they don't believe in free will, and are just autonomous puppets for their parent's dastardly schemes to extort money from people with free will.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Snowfrost » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:43 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Seriously? If that's true... that's kind of fucked.

On one hand, I despise the restriction of free speech. On the other hand I hate these douchebags.

Can this ban on entering the country be seen as an extension of the public social shunning of them? I don't think it can.


From my honest opinion, they got what's coming to them.

But take into consideration that the officials must have been elected by the public (don't know how the British Government works, I have to research that), it must be an statement from the public social of shunning their hatred from their land.

Hypothetically speaking, If I was that official, honestly I would do the same thing.The people of Britain elected me into office, and I would not take kindly of letting known hateful people into the land I was encharged to secure.

Also, the UK has a law against hate speech based on sexual orientation. The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act of 2008#Hate crimes which states that:

Wikipedia wrote:Section 74 and Schedule 16 amend Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986 to extend hate crime legislation to cover "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to sexual orientation (whether towards persons of the same sex, the opposite sex or both)."

To prevent the Act being used to inhibit freedom of speech on the subject of homosexuality, paragraph 14 of Schedule 16 inserts a new section 29JA, entitled "Protection of freedom of expression (sexual orientation)." It reads: "In this Part, for the avoidance of doubt, the discussion or criticism of sexual conduct or practices or the urging of persons to refrain from or modify such conduct or practices shall not be taken of itself to be threatening or intended to stir up hatred."

This legislation is not yet in force, but the new section 29JA is already due to be repealed by the Coroners and Justice Bill (clause 58), which was introduced into Parliament by Jack Straw on 14 January 2009.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby SWGlassPit » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:02 am UTC

I seriously doubt they would have even gone to the UK. It's all a publicity stunt for them to get their "message" out there. They can get away with what they do because of the 1st amendment, and they make their money by suing municipalities that try to stop them. The UK, to my knowledge, offers no such protection, and the Phelps clan, being entirely lawyers (save Fred, who was disbarred), should know that that shit won't fly over there. The UK should have let them come. They can be arrested for their stuff there, not here. Instead, the Phelps clan gets to declare victory.

I live about 30 miles from their churchcompound, and they protest here on a regular basis. Most of the people around here just ignore them.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby JimBot! » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:51 am UTC

Oh, this is a shame.

I was hoping they'd make it over here. We'd have given Phelps a warm welcome and a Glasgow Handshake. :]
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby apeman5291 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:23 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Once again. This is fucking stupid. The WBC fucktards are the best argument against the religious right that has ever existed.

You have to understand that the WBC represents a tiny tiny section of the religious right. They're what, 70 people? If that.

I hate them just as much as the next guy, but to generalize a group this extreme to a rather large section of the world just doesn't work. Sure, some of the basic ideas transfer, but not all by default.

And I'm going to have to start using "Glasgow Handshake", that's a good term. :D
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:42 am UTC

Decker wrote:So it's an actual case of "Ignore it and it will go away"?

Actually, it's more of a case of show up dressed as pirates and steal their news coverage and they go away. Pastafarians > Right Wing Religious Nutjobs.

In reality these sorts of preachers are really just a pointless charlatan, street show (I'd use a better word, but I never can, for the life of me remember what it is). You'll never have an honest mind changing conversation with them. I think it's better to just turn the situation into a mockery of what it already is and add some entertainment value. We do this a lot on our campus when the nutjobs show up. Last year we even had a charity event scheduled around Brother Jed's visit and made 400 dollars for charity.

Granted they may be extremely misguided people, but they're not dumb and they do tend to give a shit about other people. Not that I think the Phelps clan really fits into this description all that well.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby EsotericWombat » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:01 am UTC

apeman5291 wrote:
EsotericWombat wrote:Once again. This is fucking stupid. The WBC fucktards are the best argument against the religious right that has ever existed.

You have to understand that the WBC represents a tiny tiny section of the religious right. They're what, 70 people? If that.

I hate them just as much as the next guy, but to generalize a group this extreme to a rather large section of the world just doesn't work. Sure, some of the basic ideas transfer, but not all by default.


You misunderstand me. I'm not implying that They're All The Same. I'm saying that the WBC follow the beliefs and arguments of the religious right to their logical (using the term loosely) conclusion. In a way, they're more honest than the rest of them.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby TheStranger » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:04 pm UTC

Like I said w/ regards to that Dutch bloke, just because someone says something that you do not agree with does not mean that they should be banned.

Damn, I hate having to defend these jerks....
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby The Reaper » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:26 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:Like I said w/ regards to that Dutch bloke, just because someone says something that you do not agree with does not mean that they should be banned.

Damn, I hate having to defend these jerks....

If they weren't so hateful in the way they said things people don't agree with, they wouldn't have to be banned. Its like yelling fire in a theater, only its yelling "thank god that guy is dead in a horrific manner" at a funeral full of people who loved the guy.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Dream » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
TheStranger wrote:Like I said w/ regards to that Dutch bloke, just because someone says something that you do not agree with does not mean that they should be banned.

Damn, I hate having to defend these jerks....

If they weren't so hateful in the way they said things people don't agree with, they wouldn't have to be banned. Its like yelling fire in a theater, only its yelling "thank god that guy is dead in a horrific manner" at a funeral full of people who loved the guy.

It is like that, but it is more like very strongly implying that black people are all going to rape your pure-as-snow white daughters. The use of speech is calculated to damage society by influencing people, even if is is only credulous or stupid people, to hate and fear other members of society. This is a deliberate attack on the fabric of society, and it should be at the discretion of that society how that attack is met. Considering that an open dialogue with Phelps would be a hilarious waste of time, and that prison is a bit much for a single instance of hate incitement, denying him entry into the country is a good solution. I'm not worried until someone like phelps can be exiled for the same single act (or intention to act) as opposed to simply being denied a visa. Were he a British subject, and did he spend his career here inciting people to hate others, he could be dealt with differently, like by connecting his preaching to specific illegal acts and banning him from further public pronouncements. As it is, the solution arrived at is neat and simple, and sends an excellent message about Britain's attitude to Phelps' kind.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:21 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
TheStranger wrote:Like I said w/ regards to that Dutch bloke, just because someone says something that you do not agree with does not mean that they should be banned.

Damn, I hate having to defend these jerks....

If they weren't so hateful in the way they said things people don't agree with, they wouldn't have to be banned. Its like yelling fire in a theater, only its yelling "thank god that guy is dead in a horrific manner" at a funeral full of people who loved the guy.

I come down on the side of "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire paraphrased) every time. Yelling fire in a theater is inciting panic or something like that... I don't really understand that bit but it might be related to the boy who cried wolf thing. Yelling "thank god that guy is dead in a horrific manner" at a funeral is just being an ass.

The US has the First Amendment, and it protects even hate speech so long as that hate speech doesn't incite violence. I doubt it's what the Framers intended, but it means I can say whatever I damn well please too. It's a poor freedom that doesn't work both ways.

TheStranger: I hear you. It's hard to stand up for these people, even on free speech grounds.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Minerva » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:23 pm UTC

Basically, they're only able to operate in the USA because they hide behind the First Amendment. As soon as they try to travel to any other country to spread their hate, the respective governments will shut them down quick smart.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Dream » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:25 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Yelling fire in a theater is inciting panic or something like that... I don't really understand that bit but it might be related to the boy who cried wolf thing.

Not in the slightest. It is because such an action presents an immediate danger to the safety and security of the crowd in the theatre. If you yell "fire", you put people in danger. This is exactly why Phelps shouldn't be allowed to say his piece. It creates a clear danger to homosexuals, and deliberately so.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:47 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Yelling fire in a theater is inciting panic or something like that... I don't really understand that bit but it might be related to the boy who cried wolf thing.

Not in the slightest. It is because such an action presents an immediate danger to the safety and security of the crowd in the theatre. If you yell "fire", you put people in danger. This is exactly why Phelps shouldn't be allowed to say his piece. It creates a clear danger to homosexuals, and deliberately so.

He also has clearly and explicitly come out in support of terrorism and doesn't have a yellow ribbon on the back of his car.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Daelar » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:52 pm UTC

Where the Phelps family was headed was just down the road from me, and I can safely say if they had gotten in the country there would have been more dislike for our government than for them, at least from what I gathered from local people. Considering the counter protectors feelings towards them, that's a lot.

Like you guys have said, it's so hard to defend free speech for these guys, as their very existence makes me cringe, but I can at least be safe in the knowledge that so many people know of them and feel the same as us, even if they do cause so much upset to the families of those they picket.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:04 pm UTC

Oh, it's not really that hard.


Everyone should be free to say what ever they want, regardless of how hateful it is, including the WBC. Of course, I reserve that same right to tell them to fuck off. Free Speech is great like that, it goes both ways.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:51 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Oh, it's not really that hard.


Everyone should be free to say what ever they want, regardless of how hateful it is, including the WBC. Of course, I reserve that same right to tell them to fuck off. Free Speech is great like that, it goes both ways.

Yes, but I do have a slight problem with people saying it's okay to abduct teenagers, beat them to they're nearly dead, and then leave them tied to a fence to die. These are the sorts of things that the WBC encourages, and that's clearly promoting criminal activity.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:23 am UTC

Not just criminal activity, but harmful, violent criminal activity. There's a huge difference between telling people that it's OK to go 5 over the speed limit or download music and telling people that it's OK to assault and kill others.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Cryopyre » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Someone here needs to register a domain called "godhates<<rediculously random item here>>.com"

Like: godhatestrafficsigns.com

Anyways, extend to a completely ridiculous parody.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:38 am UTC

This one is completely ridiculous and Biblically verified.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby ConMan » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:25 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:This one is completely ridiculous and Biblically verified.

Likewise this one.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Minerva » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:22 am UTC

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:51 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:
apeman5291 wrote:
EsotericWombat wrote:Once again. This is fucking stupid. The WBC fucktards are the best argument against the religious right that has ever existed.

You have to understand that the WBC represents a tiny tiny section of the religious right. They're what, 70 people? If that.

I hate them just as much as the next guy, but to generalize a group this extreme to a rather large section of the world just doesn't work. Sure, some of the basic ideas transfer, but not all by default.


You misunderstand me. I'm not implying that They're All The Same. I'm saying that the WBC follow the beliefs and arguments of the religious right to their logical (using the term loosely) conclusion. In a way, they're more honest than the rest of them.

What the hell? Even if one were to believe that homosexuality is sinful, how does that make hating homosexuals the logical conclusion? I'm pretty sure Jesus was against this whole "hating people" thing.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:14 am UTC

I'm not talking about their purported beliefs. I'm talking about the ones they practice.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:57 am UTC

I'm interested in hearing how the religious right's stance on homosexuality should logically lead to them actively desiring (and publicly shouting their desire for) the violent death and eternal damnation of homosexuals.

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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:39 am UTC

The people who say that homosexuality as a sin cite a verse that calls it an "abomination." They say that it's an affront against their God. I'm not sure what else I need here.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am UTC

ParanoidAndroid wrote:I'm interested in hearing how the religious right's stance on homosexuality should logically lead to them actively desiring (and publicly shouting their desire for) the violent death and eternal damnation of homosexuals.


I believe it is a bunch of the old testament stuff (Leviticus or something) that EsotericWombat is referring too.
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Re: More extremists denied UK entrance: Phelps Family

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:51 am UTC

Well, it's a pretty big leap in logic to assert that thinking a practice to be "an abomination" logically leads to active hatred and ill will towards a group that practices the said "abomination".

X is an abomination.
Therefore, practitioners of X should die slow, painful deaths, be constantly insulted and antagonized, and burn forever to everyone's delight.

I'm wondering what logical steps lie in between those two sentences. That's all.


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