Explorer scouts

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Explorer scouts

Postby fizzzzzzzzzzzy » Fri May 15, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14 ... .html?_r=3

so whatdya think? Healthy American tradition of revival of the Hitler Youth?

New thread merged into existing topic.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Velict » Fri May 15, 2009 8:55 pm UTC

fizzzzzzzzzzzy wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=3

so whatdya think? Healthy American tradition of revival of the Hitler Youth?


Not even remotely. Service is voluntary, for one thing, and I highly doubt that there is significant ideological brainwashing occurring here. There's also a huge gap between a "healthy tradition" and the Hitler Youth, which you fail to acknowledge here.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby The Reaper » Fri May 15, 2009 9:00 pm UTC

That's so fucking awesome. I wish they had that when I was in boy scouts. :\ I had to wait till I was a Cavalry scout before I was able to learn things like that.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Belial » Fri May 15, 2009 9:33 pm UTC

And here I was hoping that these "Explorer scouts" were an alternative to the boy scouts without all the ridiculous conservative and cultural appropriation-ey bullshit, and just the fun stuff like wilderness survival and sailing and shit. And maybe without the gender segregation.

You put some other word in front of "scouts", and I assumed "Third party scouts. All new, without all the awful. Linux Scouts, if you will. Finally!"

But no, it is just scouts with even *more* ridiculous conservative bullshit.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Fri May 15, 2009 9:39 pm UTC

Yeah, in the UK Explorer Scouts are just what they call the group above Scouts in the age range. They go from 14 - 18.
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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby fjafjan » Fri May 15, 2009 10:37 pm UTC

Belial wrote:And here I was hoping that these "Explorer scouts" were an alternative to the boy scouts without all the ridiculous conservative and cultural appropriation-ey bullshit, and just the fun stuff like wilderness survival and sailing and shit. And maybe without the gender segregation.

This sounds pretty much exactly like the Swedish scouts.
Oh and because of Swedish law they can go in to about any forest, private or public, and stay there over night (as long as they stay away from residential areas).

Yeah I just wanted to rub it in your face :P
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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Hawknc » Fri May 15, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

Wow. Some of my favourite quotes from that article:

The training, which leaders say is not intended to be applied outside the simulated Explorer setting, can involve chasing down illegal border crossers as well as more dangerous situations that include facing down terrorists and taking out “active shooters,” like those who bring gunfire and death to college campuses. In a simulation here of a raid on a marijuana field, several Explorers were instructed on how to quiet an obstreperous lookout.

Cathy Noriego, also 16, said she was attracted by the guns. The group uses compressed-air guns — known as airsoft guns, which fire tiny plastic pellets — in the training exercises, and sometimes they shoot real guns on a closed range.

“I like shooting them,” Cathy said. “I like the sound they make. It gets me excited.”

In a competition in Arizona that he did not oversee, Deputy Lowenthal said, one role-player wore traditional Arab dress. “If we’re looking at 9/11 and what a Middle Eastern terrorist would be like,” he said, “then maybe your role-player would look like that. I don’t know, would you call that politically incorrect?”


Kids with guns, kids with guns...

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby The Reaper » Sat May 16, 2009 12:02 am UTC

They should use simunitions. those fuckers hurt. It's basically a gunpowder propelled paintball, that's a bit harder.
http://airsoftgun.blogspot.com/2007/04/ ... ns-vs.html

:3 teach kids gun safety by teaching them that it hurts to get shot, quite a bit more than a small plastic pellet.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby ThomasS » Sat May 16, 2009 1:29 am UTC

Explorer scouts is a Boy Scout program that is more co-ed and intended to be theme based. That is, a post is specialized and the nature of this specialization is not particularly restricted by BSA. A hospital might sponsor a medical focused post, a marina might have a sailing focused post, and so on. The post that I knew in high school was pretty much pure camping. It more or less struck me as Boy Scouts without the bullshit.

In any case, this seems to be a Law Enforcement/Border Patrol focused post. Probably a local phenomenon and probably not worth reading too much into it.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Lycur » Sat May 16, 2009 6:24 pm UTC

Hooooly shit. They're giving teens toy and teaching them to beat up foreigners and non-violent criminals? And this isn't the Onion?

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Sero » Sat May 16, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Okay, I have mixed reactions to this. I'm not bothered by young people (I'm not about to set a firm lower limit, but...within the range this program is aimed at, certainly), being instructed in the use of guns. I don't see any particular hazard in it, most people can to some extent work out the relatively simple 'point and click' interface of a firearm. Honestly, though, the foundation of any education about guns is safety with them. Always assume a weapon is loaded until you, personally, have checked, etc. It is very definitely hammered into you, before anything else and above anything else. I wish the same was true with, say, cars. I'm more scared of a sixteen year old behind the wheel than I am a sixteen year old with a gun. Malicious intent toward another human being is thankfully, actually fairly rare, it's accidents that scare me.

This program? I tried to be cautiously optimistic going into the article. I think it's a neat idea, vocationally aimed youth organizations. Teaching children useful skills and giving them the ability to practice them is an empowering, motivating thing. The problem is not so much in the concept (Law Enforcement oriented vocational youth organization), as the...indoctrination, let's call it. Possibly I haven't read the article carefully enough or it's sensationalist or biased, but you'd expect that sort of thing to be...a lot more, police procedure, roleplaying traffic stops, and that sort of thing, than armed assault raids against arabic terrorists and those damned pothead commies, sort of thing.
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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun May 17, 2009 2:16 am UTC

ThomasS wrote:Explorer scouts is a Boy Scout program that is more co-ed and intended to be theme based. That is, a post is specialized and the nature of this specialization is not particularly restricted by BSA. A hospital might sponsor a medical focused post, a marina might have a sailing focused post, and so on. The post that I knew in high school was pretty much pure camping. It more or less struck me as Boy Scouts without the bullshit.

In any case, this seems to be a Law Enforcement/Border Patrol focused post. Probably a local phenomenon and probably not worth reading too much into it.


This. Or rather, half of it. It's disturbing that that brand of Explorer Scouts are more popular than any other, as noted by the article, there are 35,000 of them. I worked at a scouting summer camp alongside a few Explorer scouts, all with non-insane concentrations. Explorers are, in fact, Open Source Scouts. The problem is that Open Source is, well, open. Not that I'm expecting a Linux of Our Creator distribution to be coming any time soon.
Last edited by EsotericWombat on Sun May 17, 2009 4:26 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Azukius » Sun May 17, 2009 4:20 am UTC

This. . worries me.
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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Haeche » Sun May 17, 2009 4:41 am UTC

It worries me too. On one hand kids will be kids and this might be a more "grown-up" version of the cowboys and indians game that we all partook when we were younger. I hate the fact that it turns what might be fun about playing cops and robbers into a "scout" organization with a morbidly serious scenarios. It might even brain washing the youth into believing that everything is black and white, that you're either the terrorist or the police. In my humble opinion, this really stunts their discoveries of the morally ambiguous nature of society that most of us made during our teenage years that allow us to have the critical perspective necessary in understanding world events. (not sure how convoluted that sentence is, but I hope my point gets across).

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Dibley » Sun May 17, 2009 5:13 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Not that I'm expecting a Linux of Our Creator distribution to be coming any time soon.
Clearly you have not heard of Ichthux. There used to be an Ubuntu Christian Edition, but the project was abandoned.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby Delass » Sun May 17, 2009 5:19 am UTC

I dont think so. I think that while everything isnt separated between good and evil, there is a grey, its just important to recognize that there are Bad (tm) people. Would you rather a teen that really likes action and guns to be nudged toward fighting crime, or participating in it? I think its important to note the difference between the holocaust and law enforcement.

This sounds awesome, and I wish It was available to me when I was this age.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun May 17, 2009 5:43 am UTC

Dibley wrote: There used to be an Ubuntu Christian Edition, but the project was abandoned.


yeah, I might not have been quite so clear as to what I was implying
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Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 30, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

So apparently the Explorer-Scouts are being trained in counterterrorism tactics.

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby psyck0 » Sat May 30, 2009 8:01 pm UTC

Cathy Noriega, also 16, said she was attracted by the guns. The group uses compressed-air guns — known as airsoft guns, which fire tiny plastic pellets — in the training exercises, and sometimes they shoot real guns on a closed range.

“I like shooting them,” Cathy said. “I like the sound they make. It gets me excited.”


Fantastic. That is exactly what we don't want.

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby clintonius » Sat May 30, 2009 8:01 pm UTC

the article wrote:One participant, Felix Arce, 16, said he liked “the discipline of the program,” which was something he said his life was lacking. “I want to be a lawyer, and this teaches you about how crimes are committed,” he said.
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LAWYER

Edit: also, what pscyh0 said.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 30, 2009 8:06 pm UTC

Well maybe getting people off the hook by looking at if regulations were followed during the arrest.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Dream » Sat May 30, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

clintonius wrote:
the article wrote:One participant, Felix Arce, 16, said he liked “the discipline of the program,” which was something he said his life was lacking. “I want to be a lawyer, and this teaches you about how crimes are committed,” he said.
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LAWYER

Edit: also, what pscyh0 said.

Dude. Will you ever get it together and fucking BECOME A LAWYER, please? The world needs you to, because it's fucked if you don't. I will seriously open a bottle of champagne when you start practising.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby icanus » Sat May 30, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

In a competition in Arizona that he did not oversee, Deputy Lowenthal said, one role-player wore traditional Arab dress. “If we’re looking at 9/11 and what a Middle Eastern terrorist would be like,” he said, “then maybe your role-player would look like that. I don’t know, would you call that politically incorrect?”

I'd call it several things. "Politically incorrect" isn't even in the top 10.

It is however good to know that should I ever find myself in Arizona, I can apparently completely conceal the fact that I'm English from law enforcement personnel simply by removing my bowler hat.

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby fyrenwater » Sat May 30, 2009 8:30 pm UTC

Kids trained to fight with guns? Where I come from, we call those "child soldiers". And it's a bad, bad thing.

EDIT: Oh fuck, Arizona? I was thinking "The Deep South", but ARIZONA?? Christ, too close for comfort.

I remember reading about this in TIME. My first and only thought?

"NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO"
*cries*
Last edited by fyrenwater on Sat May 30, 2009 8:33 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
...It made more sense in my head.

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby clintonius » Sat May 30, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
clintonius wrote:
the article wrote:One participant, Felix Arce, 16, said he liked “the discipline of the program,” which was something he said his life was lacking. “I want to be a lawyer, and this teaches you about how crimes are committed,” he said.
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LAWYER

Edit: also, what pscyh0 said.
Dude. Will you ever get it together and fucking BECOME A LAWYER, please? The world needs you to, because it's fucked if you don't. I will seriously open a bottle of champagne when you start practising.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Alexius » Sat May 30, 2009 8:47 pm UTC

fyrenwater wrote:Kids trained to fight with guns? Where I come from, we call those "child soldiers". And it's a bad, bad thing.

My dad had to do ROTC (which involved learning how to use a M-14) in order to graduate from high school. In fact, he spent more time on the range than was necessary- he had to acquire a certain number of "credits" to pass ROTC, he lost some due to having long hair so he had to gain extras by doing extra shooting practice.

He would laugh if you said that this training had turned him into a "child soldier"- the existence of military cadets, which I believe most countries have (although they're usually voluntary, much like Boy Scouts), has nothing to do with sending children into combat. Still less does non-militarised weapons training- I believe some places train children to hunt safely as part of the school curriculum.

Child soldiers are definitely a bad thing- but they're a world away from training children to use weapons. There's a reason why UN conventions forbid one but not the other.

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Woofsie » Sat May 30, 2009 8:54 pm UTC


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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Dream » Sat May 30, 2009 9:04 pm UTC

clintonius wrote:
Dream wrote:
clintonius wrote:
the article wrote:One participant, Felix Arce, 16, said he liked “the discipline of the program,” which was something he said his life was lacking. “I want to be a lawyer, and this teaches you about how crimes are committed,” he said.
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LAWYER

Edit: also, what pscyh0 said.
Dude. Will you ever get it together and fucking BECOME A LAWYER, please? The world needs you to, because it's fucked if you don't. I will seriously open a bottle of champagne when you start practising.
Working on it -- LSAT in September, law school in 2010, graduating in 2013, saving the world shortly thereafter.

Cool. I plan on being rich by then, although if the world fuckedness increases enough who knows how hard it will be to come by champagne... So that's your first task. Save champagne for me.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Delass » Sun May 31, 2009 12:07 am UTC

Alexius wrote:
fyrenwater wrote:Kids trained to fight with guns? Where I come from, we call those "child soldiers". And it's a bad, bad thing.

My dad had to do ROTC (which involved learning how to use a M-14) in order to graduate from high school. In fact, he spent more time on the range than was necessary- he had to acquire a certain number of "credits" to pass ROTC, he lost some due to having long hair so he had to gain extras by doing extra shooting practice.

Had to? Like, graduation requirement? Or did the school need like x amount of electives, and ROTC counted as an elective? I've never heard of ROTC being mandatory in a public school...Or was it a private military high school?

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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Alexius » Sun May 31, 2009 9:16 am UTC

Delass wrote:Had to? Like, graduation requirement? Or did the school need like x amount of electives, and ROTC counted as an elective? I've never heard of ROTC being mandatory in a public school...Or was it a private military high school?

Graduation requirement, and it was a public high school. This was in Tennessee during the Vietnam War, though- fortunately the draft was abolished just before he was old enough to be drafted.

There are still public schools with mandatory ROTC- there was an argument about one such in Buffalo, NY recently. There are also public military schools- but this was just an ordinary public high school.

EDIT: In the UK, some (mostly private) schools have a CCF (Combined Cadet Force), but no-one thinks of those schools as "military schools". The standard way of running it (I think) is to require students to do either CCF or some sort of community service.

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Re: Explorer scouts

Postby arbivark » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:56 am UTC

My explorer post was about computers. That was 1974.
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Re: Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More, Oh Boy!

Postby Vieto » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:08 pm UTC

clintonius wrote:
Dream wrote:
clintonius wrote:
the article wrote:One participant, Felix Arce, 16, said he liked “the discipline of the program,” which was something he said his life was lacking. “I want to be a lawyer, and this teaches you about how crimes are committed,” he said.
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LAWYER

Edit: also, what pscyh0 said.
Dude. Will you ever get it together and fucking BECOME A LAWYER, please? The world needs you to, because it's fucked if you don't. I will seriously open a bottle of champagne when you start practising.
Working on it -- LSAT in September, law school in 2010, graduating in 2013, saving the world shortly thereafter.

According to the mayans, you will be half a year too late.


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