Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Joeldi » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:21 pm UTC

I never even knew Ambulance's, while transporting patients, could be pulled over. Assumed they were pretty much immune to the law unless something they did directly caused an accident.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby GoC » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:31 pm UTC

natraj wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:
Telchar wrote:Yes, it is because you are exaggerating the proportionality. It's the same reason that a fear of flying is completely irrational. It's because people remember the horrible plane crashes they hear about but don't think twice about all the planes they see and hear zip by everyday.

And whereas 100% of my trips on planes have had no negative repercussions, a great majority of my interactions with cops have been aggravating, unfounded, and in some cases blatantly unjustified.


Sub "a great majority" for "every single one" and add "abusive or violent" to that list of adjectives and you'll have my experience. And that of a huge number of people I know.

Sub "been aggravating, unfounded, and in some cases blatantly unjustified" for "shown them to be pleasant and helpful" to get my experiemce. Then again... middle class/upper class (depending on country) white boy here...
Even when frisking me for weapons they're polite. :P

Whenever I need directions or would just like to know a decent place to eat I just ask a cop. :P
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:39 pm UTC

GoC wrote:Sub "been aggravating, unfounded, and in some cases blatantly unjustified" for "shown them to be pleasant and helpful" to get my experiemce. Then again... middle class/upper class (depending on country) white boy here...
Even when frisking me for weapons they're polite. :P

Whenever I need directions or would just like to know a decent place to eat I just ask a cop. :P


Hah. Last time my little brother asked a cop for help he ended up getting thrown to the concrete and arrested. (He is a dark-skinned teenager.) The case ended up getting thrown out cuz there were dozens of witnesses who saw that he did nothing but go ask for help, but nobody much was surprised cuz, that's what cops do to people of colour. We were mostly baffled that he would think voluntarily interacting with a cop was a good idea.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby GoC » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:19 pm UTC

Wow. Your country is so racist. :|
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Sadistic Humor » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:29 pm UTC

It's largely regional. In my old neighborhood, as I regaled someone in PM about, I was basically mugged by the police (when they searched my wallet, they decided to take all the money that was in it. Y'know. For safe-keeping.) In this particular neighborhood, generic-looking white people were the 'dangerous group'. Maybe fifty blocks east OR west, I'd have been fine, and it would be the Asians getting mugged.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby vslayer » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:17 am UTC

Telchar wrote:Maybe it's a living in a smaller town, but I generally assume most people are trustworthy. I wouldn't have a problem if a random person offered to help me do anything. I would assume they were out to help me and, at least where I live, that would be the case 9999/10000.


i also live in(well about 10km out of actually) a small town where i can trust pretty much everyone there and would have no reason not to trust someone i ran into there, however we arent talking about normal people, we are talking about the pigs. only twice as far back as i can remember have i encountered a pig and not had them threaten me, steal from me, kidnap me, or otherwise fuck me over. now lets assume i run into them about once a month(its probably double that when im on holiday and spend time in the city) so lets take this back 5 years, ive run into 60 pigs, and 2 of them havent fucked me over at all. thats 334/10000, not 9999/10000 that are decent people

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Minchandre » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:15 am UTC

GoC wrote:Wow. Your country is so racist. :|


I don't know what country you're from, but I bet it's just as racist if it has significant ethnic minorities, or it would be if it had them.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby GoC » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:44 am UTC

Minchandre wrote:
GoC wrote:Wow. Your country is so racist. :|


I don't know what country you're from, but I bet it's just as racist if it has significant ethnic minorities, or it would be if it had them.

You're probably right...
Ugh. I thought racism was relegated to extremists in the modern era. :evil:
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby The Reaper » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:15 am UTC

GoC wrote:
Minchandre wrote:
GoC wrote:Wow. Your country is so racist. :|


I don't know what country you're from, but I bet it's just as racist if it has significant ethnic minorities, or it would be if it had them.

You're probably right...
Ugh. I thought racism was relegated to extremists in the modern era. :evil:

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Telchar » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:41 am UTC

vslayer wrote:i also live in(well about 10km out of actually) a small town where i can trust pretty much everyone there and would have no reason not to trust someone i ran into there, however we arent talking about normal people, we are talking about the pigs. only twice as far back as i can remember have i encountered a pig and not had them threaten me, steal from me, kidnap me, or otherwise fuck me over. now lets assume i run into them about once a month(its probably double that when im on holiday and spend time in the city) so lets take this back 5 years, ive run into 60 pigs, and 2 of them havent fucked me over at all. thats 334/10000, not 9999/10000 that are decent people


That makes 0 sense. Do you think they get cops from some registered list of out of area assholes? If you trust everyone in the town, and the cops live in town, then......you do the math.

Also, it says a lot about your predisposition and your bias when you call them "pigs". It degrades your credability, and you need a lot of that when you are claiming the cops are kidnapping you 60 times in 5 years.

I'm willing to admit that where I live can influence my decision, but what you are describing is BS.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby vslayer » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:25 am UTC

i never said they kidnaped me 60 times, i said they have stolen from me, threatened me with violence or kidnapped me. they have only "arrested" me 3 times of those.

also, yes it is a pool of out of area arseholes, the 'local cop' is 2 towns over but the ones lurking area the area are all sent out from the city.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Delalyra » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:19 pm UTC

Cop's've generally been nice to me, but I a) have dealt with them twice ever, and b) am a cute white female in a small town, so I can generally get out of things if I smile pretty.

Natraj, yours and your brother's experiences piss me off :evil: That isn't right.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby william » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:54 pm UTC

vslayer wrote:i never said they kidnaped me 60 times, i said they have stolen from me, threatened me with violence or kidnapped me. they have only "arrested" me 3 times of those.

also, yes it is a pool of out of area arseholes, the 'local cop' is 2 towns over but the ones lurking area the area are all sent out from the city.

Wait. Kidnapped you? Please elaborate.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:49 pm UTC

Confiscating contraband is not theft, either. Regardless of your feelings on whether it (or anything) should be contraband.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Kizyr » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:58 pm UTC

william wrote:Wait. Kidnapped you? Please elaborate.

My guess is bringing you in without any charges, locking you up, and failing to notify (or allow you to notify) anyone you know. I know folks this has happened to (for 2-3 days in one instance). From the family's point of view, all they know is that someone's gone missing.

My experience with police has been generally ok (even being a minority), but I also limit my interaction unless I can't avoid it. I do find that acting politely and assuming they're going to be decent and rational, unless given evidence to the contrary, tends to work well. Granted, assholes are still assholes, but acting rudely from the outset never helps.

..actually, basically what Belial said earlier, though maybe not to the same extent:
Belial wrote:Pfft. No, you don't treat someone like that in a stand-offish or hostile way. They have a gun and carte blanche to fuck with you, why would you piss them off? In fact, the openly hostile and petulant way some rich white kids treat cops is a product of trusting those cops not to take them somewhere where there are no cameras and beat them til they can't talk.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby natraj » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:49 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Confiscating contraband is not theft, either. Regardless of your feelings on whether it (or anything) should be contraband.


He said they took his money out of his wallet. And yes, "confiscating contraband" is not theft, but do you have any idea how many times cops just take your cash and tell you you can't do anything about it cuz they have a right to confiscate contraband? It's happened to me multiple times. What are you supposed to do about it? They have guns and an attitude that they can do whatever they want. It doesn't matter that if they were legitimately taking your freaking cash as contraband it would have to be in the context of actually investigating you for something (like selling drugs or whatnot) rather than just harassing you on the street.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Belial » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:23 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:That makes 0 sense. Do you think they get cops from some registered list of out of area assholes? If you trust everyone in the town, and the cops live in town, then......you do the math

Putting aside the fact that vslayer says the cops were from elsewhere....

Even if they were from the town, it's not inconsistent to say you trust everyone in the town except the cops. You just have to have a concept of the corrupting nature of power. Especially power that basically never has to answer to the people it "serves" in any kind of even vaguely direct way.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Freakish » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:05 pm UTC

Anecdote from another forum;
I got pulled over did not consent to search cop found 5 grams on me. But when i asked him why he pulled me over he said cause he could cause hes a cop. then after i get bonded out i get a speeding ticket for 10 miles over the speed limit but i know for a fact i was not speeding. If i beat the speeding ticket would the weed charge get thrown out due to him having no reason to pull me over in the first place?


Ask any drug user about probable cause and they'll tell you that if a cop wants to search your vehicle they'll find a reason to.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby vslayer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:24 am UTC

william wrote:Wait. Kidnapped you? Please elaborate.


if i was to tie you up and take you back to my basement for the weekend then when i finally let you go threatened that should you not pay me $500 in the next month i will kidnap you for an even longer period of time, that would be kidnapping, yes?
so regardless of whether they want to call it "arrest", they represent a self imposed government which i don't recognise and i don't consider their actions any different to if a random person off the street had done them.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Not A Raptor » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:37 am UTC

Who polices the police?
Who polices the police policers?
Who polices the police policer policers?
Who polices the police policer policers police?
Who polices the police policer policers police policers?
Who polices the police policer policers police policer policers?
... Who polices society? *an answer is whispered into the ear* What? Fuck that!

Note: said answer is whichever answer you were thinking of at the time you read this.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:48 am UTC

vslayer wrote:so regardless of whether they want to call it "arrest", they represent a self imposed government which i don't recognise and i don't consider their actions any different to if a random person off the street had done them.

Well, there's your problem. Or maybe part of it, at any rate.

You've never once mentioned why you've been "kidnapped" and "stolen from" by the way. I'm highly suspicious of your claims of being held for a weekend and released with a $500 fine (assuming I'm parsing your writing properly) for no reason. Just because you don't recognize laws doesn't mean they don't exist, and you'd do well to disabuse yourself of that notion.

You'd also do well to get a Shift key and a grammar textbook because to be honest your writing style doesn't do much for your credibility. But that's an ad hominem argument and doesn't do anyone any good, thus my previous paragraph. Mostly it's just annoying.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby psyck0 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:24 am UTC

vslayer, you are clearly a radical anarchist so this may come as a surprise to you, but other people get a say in who the government is too and they don't care if you recognise it or not, they will still hold you subject to the same laws as everyone else. It's part of society and it works better than the alternatives for most people. The only way you will ever get to do what you want is to go away from other people, otherwise their own interests will come into play and, if there are enough of them, trump your own.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Minchandre » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:45 am UTC

vslayer wrote:
william wrote:Wait. Kidnapped you? Please elaborate.

so regardless of whether they want to call it "arrest", they represent a self imposed government which i don't recognise and i don't consider their actions any different to if a random person off the street had done them.


Actually, the government isn't self-imposed. The US government, in particular, was very clearly imposed by a specific group who all strongly believed in Locke's social contract. The US government really is, in many ways, "Of, by, and for the people". Most of these laws that you no doubt rail against have the full support of most people. Now, it's fair to say that these laws and this government are not of your choice, but they sure as hell aren't "self-imposed".

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby GoC » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:52 am UTC

Example of unsupported law: DMCA
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:53 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:vslayer, you are clearly a radical anarchist so this may come as a surprise to you, but other people get a say in who the government is too and they don't care if you recognise it or not, they will still hold you subject to the same laws as everyone else. It's part of society and it works better than the alternatives for most people. The only way you will ever get to do what you want is to go away from other people, otherwise their own interests will come into play and, if there are enough of them, trump your own.

And if you accept current theories for factors influencing human evolution, you'd realize that our species is not built upon radical anarchy.


Also, people seem to fail to recognize the correlation between a nation of morons and a government of such.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby vslayer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:33 am UTC

You've never once mentioned why you've been "kidnapped" and "stolen from" by the way. I'm highly suspicious of your claims of being held for a weekend and released with a $500 fine (assuming I'm parsing your writing properly) for no reason. Just because you don't recognize laws doesn't mean they don't exist, and you'd do well to disabuse yourself of that notion.

Yes, you are parsing correctly. The incident you are referring to involved me being drunk in a liquor ban area over new years and being 'arrested'. I was then charged further with disorderly conduct for a somewhat impressive string of profanities directed towards my captors and my refusal to drive 400km back to the city where I was 'arrested' to attend 'sentencing'.

I recognise that laws exist, but I also recognise that they were written by a government which - even if we are to assume elections of representatives to be democratic - represents under 25% of the population within the territory they claim authority over, and as such I feel no obligation to obey them when they infringe upon my personal freedoms.

psyck0 wrote:vslayer, you are clearly a radical anarchist so this may come as a surprise to you, but other people get a say in who the government is too and they don't care if you recognise it or not, they will still hold you subject to the same laws as everyone else. It's part of society and it works better than the alternatives for most people. The only way you will ever get to do what you want is to go away from other people, otherwise their own interests will come into play and, if there are enough of them, trump your own.

Ah, majority rules; "do what I say because I'm stronger than you." What ever happened to personal freedom?

PS, I'm not illiterate, I've just never been asked to use capitalisation when typing. Is this easier for you to read?

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Minchandre » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:05 am UTC

vslayer wrote:
You've never once mentioned why you've been "kidnapped" and "stolen from" by the way. I'm highly suspicious of your claims of being held for a weekend and released with a $500 fine (assuming I'm parsing your writing properly) for no reason. Just because you don't recognize laws doesn't mean they don't exist, and you'd do well to disabuse yourself of that notion.

Yes, you are parsing correctly. The incident you are referring to involved me being drunk in a liquor ban area over new years and being 'arrested'. I was then charged further with disorderly conduct for a somewhat impressive string of profanities directed towards my captors and my refusal to drive 400km back to the city where I was 'arrested' to attend 'sentencing'.


When you put words like "arrested" and "sentencing" in quotation marks, it really makes your argument look much more "convincing" and less like the words of someone with a giant "chip on their shoulder".

Area liquor bans are almost universally instituted because a group of people in the area petition for them. Seriously, governments seldom recommend them (they reduce municipal income). From what it sounds like, you were being drunk and belligerent on a night when cops are already seriously overworked. I'm sorry your fundamental right to be an ass in public was infringed upon. Let me tell you something: the properly anarchist response to a stream of profanity from a hostile drunk would be a good punch in the face.

That you were expected to drive 400 km does suck, and I wish there were a better way to transfer jurisdiction like that, "extraditing you" to your hometown, if you will. Still, if such a system were in place, I have little enough doubt that people would be screaming how unjust it was. So there you go.

I recognise that laws exist, but I also recognise that they were written by a government which - even if we are to assume elections of representatives to be democratic - represents under 25% of the population within the territory they claim authority over, and as such I feel no obligation to obey them when they infringe upon my personal freedoms.


Are you sure you're a Kiwi and not, say, from New Hampshire? :P

Seriously though: your 25% figure is, I'm assuming, supposed to represent the percent of the population that votes? As said before: "If you don't vote, you don't get to complain". There is a system in place to make sure that everyone's voice is heard; if you're too stubborn or "principled" to take advantage of it, that's your problem and not the system's.

I'd also like to add that personal freedoms in the libertarian sense usually means something like, "Personal freedoms that do not inhibit the freedoms of others". The area that you were originally drunk in in the previous example was exercising their freedom to forbid drunks in their neighborhood; the cops who "arrested" you were exercising their right not to have a drunk spew invective at them.

psyck0 wrote:vslayer, you are clearly a radical anarchist so this may come as a surprise to you, but other people get a say in who the government is too and they don't care if you recognise it or not, they will still hold you subject to the same laws as everyone else. It's part of society and it works better than the alternatives for most people. The only way you will ever get to do what you want is to go away from other people, otherwise their own interests will come into play and, if there are enough of them, trump your own.


Ah, majority rules; "do what I say because I'm stronger than you." What ever happened to personal freedom?

PS, I'm not illiterate, I've just never been asked to use capitalisation when typing. Is this easier for you to read?


See above about personal freedoms. Honestly, though, freedoms are a privilege, not a fundamental entitlement. Be happy that your government allows you the freedom to complain about things, and that the Stasi haven't already broken your thumbs.

Also: you've never been asked to capitalize while typing :?

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby psyck0 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:46 am UTC

Your freedom ends at the freedom to have a chance at life. Other freedoms people give or deny you. I'm a firm believer in having universal human freedoms but that is because I recognise their value, not because I feel that they are inherent in any way. Anything you are allowed to do is just that- other people allow you to do it without interfering. Similarly, you have the ability to allow or not allow anything that is within your power to prevent. If you work with other people in society, that power goes greatly. If you refuse to do so, it is limited to your own physical force.

There does not exist in "nature" any freedom except to try things and see what happens. You have to adapt to your circumstances. It's late and I am rambling. I have become very good at typing with one hand.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby joshz » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:51 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:I have become very good at typing with one hand.
:shock:
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby The Reaper » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:54 am UTC

joshz wrote:
psyck0 wrote:I have become very good at typing with one hand.
:shock:

I like where this is going.... giggidy.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Belial » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:15 am UTC

So guys. Did you ever watch a short-lived show on Comedy Central called "CrossBallz"? It was theoretically a debate show, and they told the "contestants" it was real. It would start off with one person with a very serious (though often somewhat extreme) viewpoint on something like gay marriage or pot legalization, and that person (Person A) would argue against a person they believed to be someone who very seriously believed the opposite (Person B). What Person A didn't know was that Person B was really a comedian, whose job it was to make the tone of the debate as ridiculous as possible.

However, it *really* got interesting toward the second half of the show, when they would always introduce yet another person (Person 1), ostensibly on the "side" of Person A. Person 1 was also a comedian masquerading, whose job it was to have the same viewpoint as Person A, and to start off rational so that Person A thinks they're on the same side and nods along, but to then take it to a ridiculous extreme that even Person A couldn't respect. The comedy was in watching Person A looking really uncomfortable, or else suddenly turning on their own side as they were confronted with someone way off the deep end of their own beliefs.*

What I am saying is that right now I feel like vslayer is my Person 1. Also, that I wish that show would come back. That was awesome.


*They also generally injected someone serious (person 2) on the side of Person B in the second half, who had much the same reaction to Person B as Person A did to Person 1. But that's not terribly relevant to this analogy
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby natraj » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:38 pm UTC

Minchandre wrote:Let me tell you something: the properly anarchist response to a stream of profanity from a hostile drunk would be a good punch in the face.


Not that this is on topic at all but I'm prickly about misrepresenting anarchism: This statement of yours right here is a load of garbage. Most anarchists are no more violent jerks than the rest of the general population.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby psyck0 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

Shoulder surgery. It was late and I was feeling proud of my 1-handed 40-50 words/minute.

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby joshz » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Suuuuure.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:32 pm UTC

natraj wrote:Most anarchists are no more violent jerks than the rest of the general population.

And many in the rest of the population would happily punch a belligerent drunk in the face if there were no chance of being charged with assault for doing so...
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Telchar » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

Obviously Gmalivuk would...fisticuffs at the ready.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:41 pm UTC

Well not at a party though, obviously.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby joshz » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:47 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Well not at a party though, obviously.
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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby Minchandre » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:22 am UTC

natraj wrote:
Minchandre wrote:Let me tell you something: the properly anarchist response to a stream of profanity from a hostile drunk would be a good punch in the face.


Not that this is on topic at all but I'm prickly about misrepresenting anarchism: This statement of yours right here is a load of garbage. Most anarchists are no more violent jerks than the rest of the general population.


gmalivuk wrote:
natraj wrote:Most anarchists are no more violent jerks than the rest of the general population.

And many in the rest of the population would happily punch a belligerent drunk in the face if there were no chance of being charged with assault for doing so...


This is where I was going with that.

In an anarcho-capitalistic society, the proper response is to issue suit. Anything else, though, and it basically is the Law of the Jungle. (Note: please do not take this as an insult to anarchism. I used to be an anarchist myself, and am quite familiar with all of the arguments as to why it would work, in theory).

Also, for the record, the anarchists I've met are more violently inclined on average than the non-anarchists ("archists"? That almost implies a support for government, though, where the reality is often indifference).

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Re: Ambulance pulled over while on way to hospital

Postby wst » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC

Minchandre wrote:Also, for the record, the anarchists I've met are more violently inclined on average than the non-anarchists
I think you'll find that they are thugs who are saying they are anarchists because the popular opinion is the whole point of anarchy is to beat people up. They aren't anarchists.
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