Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:31 am UTC

Weaver wrote: It doesn't matter that going hands-on will likely result in greater lasting harm to the perp, it's prefered to use of a Taser because Taser pain lasts a whole 5 seconds (never mind that painful bruises from batons last days or more internal bleeding, hernias, dislocated joints, bruised fractured or broken bones, concussions, and possible death from batons ).



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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby juststrange » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 pm UTC

Is inflicting pain bad? Sure.

However, pain is temporary. Pain is without memory in the fact that you can't think back and "re-feel" it. Crippling taser pain stops crippling when the button is off. I would much rather ride a taser a few seconds that get hit with a baton. I am an athlete - if you were to break one of my arms, between being out of the scene and then having to rebuild all the muscle it would be atleast a year before I could be back on the level, maybe more. Considering I am in my 20s, a year of my physical prime is an eternity. Not to mention the hassle of having a cast on. A baton to the knee will make you limp for a good long while, maybe the rest of your life. For those of us who like to run, that sucks. I don't expect a cop to try and go 1 on 1 with me, its way too easy to get hurt. That and the potential biting, scratching, spitting, fluid dripping disease transmission.

Yes it hurts. But as far as lasting effects, it is waaay less serious than any number of other techniques.


......Or you could not be high as hell, naked, wandering in public, claiming to be a cybernetic killing machine. That is NOT ok behaviour.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Dream » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:19 pm UTC

Weaver wrote:Well, it's pretty clear that Dream won't accept the use of a Taser unless the perp has already injured a cop

You appear to be unable to read. This doesn't help you get read by anyone.
Weaver wrote:It doesn't matter that going hands-on will likely result in greater lasting harm to the perp, it's prefered to use of a Taser because Taser pain lasts a whole 5 seconds (never mind that painful bruises from batons last days or more).

Once again: You are assuming that anyone who can't be tasered and is anything less than immediately and totally cooperative will be savagely beaten. That is not true, so you are not comparing like with like.

Weaver wrote:Since Dream finds my postings so ... offensive, or something ...

They are moronic, but the reason you are foe'd is that you have a serious attitude problem, where you appear to think I'm stupid because I disagree with you. Get a much nicer tone, and I might both unfoe you AND engage you in conversation.

Weaver wrote:unless he's willing to do what he asks others to do, unless he puts his money where his mouth is, he has no business trying to insist that someone else place themselves at unnecessary risk.

Not everyone should be a police officer. But they serve society, and they are answerable to society. It is dictionary definition fascist to claim that the police are inherently deserving of our obedience and respect because they are the police, especially where the discussion you are claiming that in is in relation to the use of force by the police. I DEMAND appropriate behaviour from the police, I demand it in return for the powers I delegate to them, like their monopoly on the use of violence within the state. If they are not going to use these powers safely and appropriately, I am going to take those powers away. And if enough people agree with me then that will actually happen.

Weaver wrote:I presume also that he won't do anything as crass as calling a police officer for assistance should he ever be the victim of a crime - after all, facing risk is at the core of his position - so I'm sure he will attempt to subdue any future perp himself rather than call upon the cops he seems to dislike so much (for not facing unnecessary risks, or something).

The police still have to protect me if I don't like them. They have to protect me if they don't like me. They don't get to choose because I don't get to choose a better alternative force out of the phonebook every time I see them kill someone, or beat someone. And protecting everyone equally is the only way the police can ever exist, because it's the only way they are safe for society.

I honestly think you have no understanding of the relationship between society and the forces that serve it, nor of the reasons that society can demand standards of behaviour and risk from those forces. I think you should not be allowed anywhere near the military until you gain that understanding, because you will not be safe to be armed around an angry or uncooperative civilian. It saddens me that your civic duty is apparently not drummed into you as much as the rest of your training is.*

*Although perhaps some of the other soldiers around here could correct me on that.

I am an athlete - if you were to break one of my arms, between being out of the scene and then having to rebuild all the muscle it would be atleast a year before I could be back on the level, maybe more.

I once fell onto a street at a walking pace. I destroyed my right elbow completely. It didn't move at all for over a year, and even now it is still missing about half its full range. It was precisely the kind of fall a tasing would have given me. Don't be so sure you're safe just because the police are not actually hitting you. A taser might do less damage that an arm breaking beating, but as a law abiding athlete, you're much more likely to be tasered than beaten, because tasering can happen in an instant without giving you time to comply, but beating is very, very unlikely. You could end up any of the people unnecessarily tasered who are all over the internet, but you are vanishingly unlikely to be one of those beaten to a pulp. If so, you might find yourself injured regardless.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Weaver » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:56 pm UTC

Well, this is interesting - it may well be the first time I've been called (indirectly, perhaps) some sort of fascist thug Soldier who isn't concerned with the rights of ordinary citizens.

At work, I'm known as the liberal pinko-freak. Really.

I'm adaquately concerned with the rights of those subject to US justice, in all it's forms. I'm the first one to call cops when they are exceeding their authorities - but I've yet to see any hard evidence that they did so in this case. I fully grant that the limited information available leads to supposition on their need - but this isn't just cause for me to declare the LEOs were wrong, as Dream is wont to do (also absent any evidence).

Dream, you want to declare expectations for various types of service employees, and see nothing wrong with demanding such behavior as unnecessary risk-taking while apparently being unwilling to show a proper example by doing such yourself. For this, I pity you - while I don't think I'm the finest example of an American, I'm at least willing to undergo those risks I ask others to expose themselves to.

You state you've suffered a broken elbow, and that concern for a strangers' fall (which, unlikely as it might be, having not been demonstrated with supporting evidence) from a Taser application leads you to believe that LEOs are wrong to use them because this perp MIGHT have suffered a similar injury. Yet you seem to give little credence to the odds that a similar joint injury would occur after the LEOs in question took your advice and went hands-on or used their batons. Do you realize that hitting a person in the joints (entirely too possible during dynamic conflict scenarios) can very easialy cause the exact sort of injuries you're decrying?

As I've said repeatedly above, there is no way to know (given the information available) exactly what the perp in question was doing to justify, in the minds of the LEOs on scene, the use of a Taser as an alternative to a "simple" arrest (asking someone to lie down and be cuffed). But, and I think I'm quite justified in asserting (based on training standards in place nation-wide) that the perp wasn't simply Tased because it was "easier" for the cops, or because they were lazy, or something. They had to be able to articulate their rationale for the use of force they employed - and such justification is ALWAYS reviewed by higher-elements, including "civilian" oversight elements.

Dream wrote:
I honestly think you have no understanding of the relationship between society and the forces that serve it, nor of the reasons that society can demand standards of behaviour and risk from those forces. I think you should not be allowed anywhere near the military until you gain that understanding, because you will not be safe to be armed around an angry or uncooperative civilian. It saddens me that your civic duty is apparently not drummed into you as much as the rest of your training is.*

*Although perhaps some of the other soldiers around here could correct me on that.


Well, really. I'm truly sorry that you have drawn this assessment of me, especially based on such a limited interaction. But in actuality, I've been on active duty for 18 years now, I've been deployed as both a combat Soldier and in a Peace Enforcement role; I've trained literally hundreds of Soldiers in lawful use of force restrictions and applications; I've developed training programs which were instrumental in improving US Army successes in Iraq and elsewhere, programs involving limits on use of force and improved cultural awareness, and which were judged to be among the best offered by the Army at Battalion level and below. I've been trained on and employed a large variety of levels of force, up to and including deadly force, and have somewhat of a reputation for my encouragement towards minimization of force employed (my patrol element was the last one in our Brigade to have to fire a warning shot to clear a potential suicide bomber out of our way in Iraq - we went over 4 months before firing a single rifle round, whereas other patrol elements fired rounds nearly every day). I've personally been involved in riot-control situations where batons, chemical agents, and lethal methods were all available - and been relied upon by my chain-of-command for my awareness and discretion (situations which were resolved with NO injuries, with minimal use of force, and in which I was judged instrumental at helping a peaceful solution).

But you know me better - I'm some sort of uncaring, brutal, "moronic" automaton with only one response to every problem. :roll: What the fuck ever.

I'm done with this topic.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby GreaterSteven » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:02 am UTC

They are moronic, but the reason you are foe'd is that you have a serious attitude problem, where you appear to think I'm stupid because I disagree with you. Get a much nicer tone, and I might both unfoe you AND engage you in conversation.


Um.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Spacemilk » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:39 pm UTC

Dream: Here is the problem I am experiencing. I agree with you when you say Tasers can be misused. I agree when you say that Tasing is extremely painful and not something anyone would like to go through. I even agree when you say that a Taser in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage.

My problem is that, in spite of all these issues with Tasers, you still haven't proven that we should stop using Tasers. No matter how you cut the situation, statistically speaking Tasers are going to cause much less lasting physical damage than any other weapon currently available to policemen. Yes, you can have freak accidents with Tasers, and yes, there are situations when a Taser does not need to be used (the 70+ year old grandmother at a police stop would count, I think), but the consequences of these accidents/situations are likely going to be far less severe than the same situations if, say, the officer had had a gun.

Also, saying we should stop using Tasers because policemen sometimes make bad decisions just doesn't work. A cop who makes a bad decision is going to make one with a Taser or with a gun. It's the person who makes the mistake, not the weapon. So I'd prefer those people to have something which won't cause their mistakes to have lasting damage. And yeah, I'd love it if cops would just learn to restrain people, too, such that they didn't need Tasers. But that isn't always possible (cops will unfortunately always need a weapon that allows them to "one-up" a perpatrator), and once again, I'd much prefer they got trigger happy with a Taser than with a baton or a gun. I know you think that

In the end, no weapon is perfect. No weapon is going to be completely accident or abuse free in everyone's hands; there are always going to be poor users, or bad situations, or accidents.

You're correct when you say that we shouldn't let policemen do whatever the hell they want and we should let them JUST BECAUSE they are police. I don't think that happens, anyway, and I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting we should do that.

Quick, direct responses to some of your quotes (I sorta said some of this stuff above but this is for the sake of clarity):

Dream wrote:Once again: You are assuming that anyone who can't be tasered and is anything less than immediately and totally cooperative will be savagely beaten. That is not true, so you are not comparing like with like.

It's possible Tasers make cops more trigger happy. However, there's a tradeoff: Even though they occasionally Tase people who don't deserve it, it doesn't damage them in a lasting way. If they were packing a gun, though, or a baton, then someone who DID deserve to get Tased would have definitely gotten the gun or baton treatment in those situations. So although you get more "false positives" with Tasers, the lasting damage from the false positives and the true positives is small instead of having the damage from the true positives be very large. Hopefully that makes sense, I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well.

If your goal is to minimize the amount of pain police officers inflict on their suspects, I do not think that getting rid of Tasers is the way to do it.

Dream wrote:I DEMAND appropriate behaviour from the police, I demand it in return for the powers I delegate to them, like their monopoly on the use of violence within the state. If they are not going to use these powers safely and appropriately, I am going to take those powers away.

And officers do get suspended when misuse of a Taser is suspected or known, as in the case of the 70+-year-old at the traffic stop. In the case of Mr. Terminator, I don't know if they got suspended or not, but I personally think that they handled it the best way they could. There are already cconsequences of Taser misuse in society, or at least there are consequences when enough people think that the action was wrong.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Vaniver » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:44 pm UTC

Spacemilk wrote:If your goal is to minimize the amount of pain police officers inflict on their suspects, I do not think that getting rid of Tasers is the way to do it.
The word you are looking for is injury, not pain.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Freakish » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:50 pm UTC

For the record. I'm not of the position that we should get rid of tasers. I just thing that they should have tighter guidelines.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Spacemilk » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Spacemilk wrote:If your goal is to minimize the amount of pain police officers inflict on their suspects, I do not think that getting rid of Tasers is the way to do it.
The word you are looking for is injury, not pain.

True. Although maybe it's both; I can't say, as I have never been shot, Tased, or beaten with a baton. I think I would prefer five seconds of excruciating pain to days or weeks of severe pain. The mentality of "pull the bandaid off fast" I guess.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby SummerGlauFan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:49 pm UTC

Freakish wrote:For the record. I'm not of the position that we should get rid of tasers. I just thing that they should have tighter guidelines.


Very true. It should be the case for any use of force by police, though, not just tasers.
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I knew from that moment that she was something special"


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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby The Reaper » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:18 am UTC

More Tasering in the news! This time, with less provocation than being a possible threat! http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

A 76-year-old Wyoming man shot with a Taser by police while driving an antique tractor in a small-town parade says it hurt but he's OK.
Retired truck driver Bud Grose of Glenrock told The Associated Press in a telephone interview on Wednesday that he has a heart condition but didn't require any medical attention.
Investigators say police in Glenrock used a Taser on the man after he disobeyed orders. They say the tractor may have hit a car.
Two officers were placed on paid leave and state agents are investigating, but the police chief says it doesn't appear any policies were violated.
Grose wouldn't discuss specifics of the incident until he speaks to his attorney.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

GLENROCK, Wyo. (AP)—Investigators say police in a small Wyoming town used a Taser on a 76-year-old man driving an antique tractor in a parade after he allegedly hit a car and disobeyed orders.
Two officers were placed on paid leave and state agents are investigating, but the police chief says it doesn't appear any policies were violated.
Tim Hill of the Wyoming Division of Criminal Investigation says the tractor may have hit a car and the tractor driver allegedly disobeyed officers Saturday.

C'mon, seriously? An antique tractor in a parade, he's 76 years old, and you had to use a taser on the guy? WTF?

"WATCH OUT OFFICER JOE! HE'S GETTING AWAY AT 2MPH!!"
"I GOT THIS SHIT -ZAAAAPPP-"

"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby zug » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:00 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

Clearly you have never beheld the wonder of an auto insurance investigation :(
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby SummerGlauFan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:34 am UTC

zug wrote:
The Reaper wrote:"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

Clearly you have never beheld the wonder of an auto insurance investigation :(


I fully support using tasers on auto insurance investigators*. I have had to deal with them several times.

* I shouldn't have to say this, but on this thread I will: THAT WAS SARCASM!!!!!
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I knew from that moment that she was something special"


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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Dream » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:18 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

I'm guessing they mean "may" as in "could have, potentially".
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby The Reaper » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:24 am UTC

Dream wrote:
The Reaper wrote:"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

I'm guessing they mean "may" as in "could have, potentially".

I could have, potentially hit a car when I walk outside in the morning. Does that mean I need to be tased? What about the people that actually DO hit cars, do we execute them on site? I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. -_-

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Dream » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:51 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Dream wrote:
The Reaper wrote:"may" have hit a car. I mean, seriously, either it hit the car or it didn't hit the car. Which one is it? It's not like its hard to find out.

I'm guessing they mean "may" as in "could have, potentially".

I could have, potentially hit a car when I walk outside in the morning. Does that mean I need to be tased? What about the people that actually DO hit cars, do we execute them on site? I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. -_-

Well no, you don't NEED to be tased, but the other option is pummeling you to death with a small child.* What were the police to do in that situation?

*Or, for the other side of the debate, substitute "actually do some work" here.
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Calorus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:01 pm UTC

Doing a dangerous job shouldn't automatically imbue you with special privileges .

It's not okay to shoot (with a gun, a taser, or a children's bow and arrow) someone who is of little or no harm to anyone (I mean he was quite obviously not armed) he was a naked guy: you put shame to one side and bundle him to the ground, and march him out with your hat over his genitals.

I don't see why any weapon should be called for, it's one of those things that are fine on other people until you're trying to argue your side of the story with an officer and the next thing you know you're paralysed on the ground - and suddenly they've overstepped the mark.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby achan1058 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:30 pm UTC

Taser can kill, even to people who look apparently healthy. We had a case like that in the Vancouver airport before. Judging by how often it is abused, I would say they should be placed at a level just below guns.

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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby Glmclain » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

August of 09' guys?
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Re: Nevada Police use tasers to bring down terminator

Postby robert-laws » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:20 pm UTC

Calorus wrote:Doing a dangerous job shouldn't automatically imbue you with special privileges .

It's not okay to shoot (with a gun, a taser, or a children's bow and arrow) someone who is of little or no harm to anyone (I mean he was quite obviously not armed) he was a naked guy: you put shame to one side and bundle him to the ground, and march him out with your hat over his genitals.

I don't see why any weapon should be called for, it's one of those things that are fine on other people until you're trying to argue your side of the story with an officer and the next thing you know you're paralysed on the ground - and suddenly they've overstepped the mark.


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