Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

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The Reaper
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Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby The Reaper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

OBEY
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/0 ... dment.html
ABC News’ Rick Klein reports:

A Republican senator is calling for the White House to suspend a new project that asks members of the public to flag “fishy” claims about President Obama’s health care plans, arguing that it raises privacy concerns and will serve to chill free speech.

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, is sending a letter to the White House today asking the president to “cease this program immediately” -- or to explain how Americans’ privacy will be protected if e-mails are forwarded to the White House as requested.

“I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy’ or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests,” Cornyn writes

“I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I suspect that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program -- and I would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government action.”

Yesterday, White House director of new media Macon Phillips wrote a blog posting urging readers to flag questionable claims about health care proposals.

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

Cornyn specifically asks whether those who quote the president’s past statements -- such as his 2003 statement that he was a “proponent” of single-payer care -- qualifies as “disinformation.” He also asks what actions the White House would take against those engaging in “fishy” speech.

Oy. :\

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Mr. N
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mr. N » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:12 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:Oy. :\


You have a problem with being transparent or something?

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby The Reaper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:14 pm UTC

Mr. N wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Oy. :\


You have a problem with being transparent or something?

I envision lawsuits and "cease and desist" letters being sent out by the feds for anyone putting their own opinion in the form of a blog that gets reported by nutcases.

Then I envision the SS coming around and collecting my neighbors that I reported for doing things that I didn't like.

And then I envision them coming for me.

And then there was no and then.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:18 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:“If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

Flag? Come on, guys, if you're instituting an email surveillance program, at least name it information@whitehouse.gov, education@whitehouse.gove or kittens@whitehouse.gov, "flag" does not have good connotations. Although I guess it's a step up from deathsquad@whitehouse.gov.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby iceberg » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:23 pm UTC

I will report only to the email deathsquad@whitehouse.gov
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby poxic » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:44 pm UTC

They're trying to stop rumours, not people.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:49 pm UTC

As I blogged:

The Republicans are all up in arms (the arms that aren’t currently holding torches or cognac) about the ’sweeping fascist Big Brother White House edict for all good Americans to report anyone making fishy comments about the new Health Care plan’. Well, sure, when you say it like that, Obama is obviously a real-holographic-simulated-evil-photonegative-Hitler. A slightly more accurate, less douchebaggy-doublespeak way to phrase it would be the ’sweeping White House request for all Americans who actually pay attention to report anyone spreading lies and slander about the poorly-understood Health Care plan’, because honestly, I’ve seen so much rampaging bullshit about the Health Care thing that I’m surprised the entire country doesn’t have dysentery.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Garm » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

This sounds reasonable to me. It's not an attempt at big brother, it's a plea for grass-roots support from an unmotivated majority. Right now an organized, vocal minority (the tea-baggers) is shutting down the democratic process. This hopefully will help the White House counter lies like the one about euthanizing old people. It's like some right-wing nutjob got stoned and fell asleep watching "Logan's Run" then woke up to the morning talk shows discussing health care and voila.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:48 pm UTC

A blog post by a lower tier (I think?) White House official isn't really something to get worked up about.

What is worth getting worked up about is the idea of "disinformation about the health care plan." You mean "plans," and it would be a lot easier to weed out the information and disinformation if there were more real information in the first place, and more time to digest it in. "Somewhere in one of the thousand page bills of dense legalese is bad thing X!" Well, proving that as true (if given the location) is a lot easier than disproving it.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Lord Aurora » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:55 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:As I blogged:

The Republicans are all up in arms (the arms that aren’t currently holding torches or cognac) about the ’sweeping fascist Big Brother White House edict for all good Americans to report anyone making fishy comments about the new Health Care plan’. Well, sure, when you say it like that, Obama is obviously a real-holographic-simulated-evil-photonegative-Hitler. A slightly more accurate, less douchebaggy-doublespeak way to phrase it would be the ’sweeping White House request for all Americans who actually pay attention to report anyone spreading lies and slander about the poorly-understood Health Care plan’, because honestly, I’ve seen so much rampaging bullshit about the Health Care thing that I’m surprised the entire country doesn’t have dysentery.
Since when was I not allowed to lie about healthcare to people?

Not that I was anyway, but I'm pretty goddam sure I get to say whatever the fuck I want about the healthcare plan, and if it's bullshit, I'm pretty goddam sure you get to tell me "That's bullshit, you fucking moron."

The White House has nothing to do with that interaction. And...that's the way it should stay.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:01 pm UTC

Lord Aurora wrote:Since when was I not allowed to lie about healthcare to people?

Not that I was anyway, but I'm pretty goddam sure I get to say whatever the fuck I want about the healthcare plan, and if it's bullshit, I'm pretty goddam sure you get to tell me "That's bullshit, you fucking moron."

The White House has nothing to do with that interaction. And...that's the way it should stay.
Exactly. Lie about it all you want.

And people will send your lies to the 'appropriate' people (whoever the hell they might be) so they can, in the course of proper debate and discussion, debunk your lies and try to correct your erroneous viewpoints. They don't want to (well, theoretically) arrest you, or put you in a 'file'... they want to find the problematic and false information out there, and try to stay on top of it.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby The Reaper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:05 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Lord Aurora wrote:Since when was I not allowed to lie about healthcare to people?

Not that I was anyway, but I'm pretty goddam sure I get to say whatever the fuck I want about the healthcare plan, and if it's bullshit, I'm pretty goddam sure you get to tell me "That's bullshit, you fucking moron."

The White House has nothing to do with that interaction. And...that's the way it should stay.
Exactly. Lie about it all you want.

And people will send your lies to the 'appropriate' people (whoever the hell they might be) so they can, in the course of proper debate and discussion, debunk your lies and try to correct your erroneous viewpoints. They don't want to (well, theoretically) arrest you, or put you in a 'file'... they want to find the problematic and false information out there, and try to stay on top of it.

As I would hope, but alot of the people believing the lies are the people that think that the High Socialist is out to get them, and therefor spreading the lies, and the liars are spreading the truth.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Lord Aurora » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:07 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:(whoever the hell they might be)

(well, theoretically)
Rather bothersome to me.

The whole idea just rubs me the wrong way.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:09 pm UTC

Lord Aurora wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:(whoever the hell they might be)

(well, theoretically)
Rather bothersome to me.

The whole idea just rubs me the wrong way.

Me, too. I'm not entirely behind the way they're going about this, but I am more upset at the (very expected) way the Republicans are trying to make this sound like Argentina during the bad years. Yeeesh.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mr. N » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:15 pm UTC

This is getting confusing. Who is telling the truth and who is lying?

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:18 pm UTC

Telling most of the truth: official government outlets.
Starting most of the lies: official opposition media outlets.
Spreading the lies: most easily-led American media-consumers.
Spreading the truth: Sysyphusian and broken-hearted Demorcrats no-one listens to.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby psyck0 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:39 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Lord Aurora wrote:Since when was I not allowed to lie about healthcare to people?

Not that I was anyway, but I'm pretty goddam sure I get to say whatever the fuck I want about the healthcare plan, and if it's bullshit, I'm pretty goddam sure you get to tell me "That's bullshit, you fucking moron."

The White House has nothing to do with that interaction. And...that's the way it should stay.
Exactly. Lie about it all you want.

And people will send your lies to the 'appropriate' people (whoever the hell they might be) so they can, in the course of proper debate and discussion, debunk your lies and try to correct your erroneous viewpoints. They don't want to (well, theoretically) arrest you, or put you in a 'file'... they want to find the problematic and false information out there, and try to stay on top of it.

As I would hope, but alot of the people believing the lies are the people that think that the High Socialist is out to get them, and therefor spreading the lies, and the liars are spreading the truth.

You sound like that in the OP. Not that you had much content.
Who cares, anyway? The liars are fucking idiots and I don't care what they think. Having some sort of plan to correct misinformation, which is all this is, is better than having no plan and letting them lie about it all they want.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:57 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Spreading the truth: Sysyphusian and broken-hearted Demorcrats no-one listens to.

And MSNBC, PBS, NPR, and uh... Comedy Central, terrifyingly enough. All of which I suppose fall into the latter category.

In other news, Firefox informs me that "terrifyingly" is in fact a word.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby zug » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:04 am UTC

My crazy ass religious staunchly Republican aunt living off welfare started a facebook group or something against socialized healthcare. It's basically a bunch of stupid hillbillies whining "dey turk arr dokterz! durka durr!" who somehow think that now, they're going to have to wait in line for 6 months to get into the emergency room. :roll:

But I can laugh about the hypocrisy of being against a socialist program when one is partaking of another, and I don't really feel the need to get the government involved.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:37 am UTC

There are consequences to polluting the our democratic process with insane conspiracy theories about how, for instance, The Affordable Care Act is a SEEKRIT PLOT TO KILL OLD PEOPLE. Those who espouse this bullshit should do so at peril of irrevocably losing their credibility.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby zug » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:41 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:There are consequences to polluting the our democratic process with insane conspiracy theories about how, for instance, The Affordable Care Act is a SEEKRIT PLOT TO KILL OLD PEOPLE. Those who espouse this bullshit should do so at peril of irrevocably losing their credibility.

The only people who believe that BS are people who wouldn't care if their sources' credibility was undermined by the government, though. They'd actually use that as further evidence of a conspiracy.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby psyck0 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:28 am UTC

Sadly, there is no risk of these lunatics losing their credibility without the culture doing a 180 and respecting knowledge and intelligence again.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby The Reaper » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:34 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:Sadly, there is no risk of these lunatics losing their credibility without the culture doing a 180 and respecting knowledge and intelligence again.

What doth thou spake?! The king's magi shall have his way with thou!

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Sero » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:39 am UTC

Yeah. It's a little creepy, and I don't approve of it in principle, but the practical reality is that forwarded e-mails are likely to get a stock 'common misconceptions'-style e-mail sent to the original author of the e-mail. Bad in principle, but not as inherently Orwellian as some are suggesting.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Freakish » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:56 am UTC

I hoped this was just to learn public opinions.
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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:04 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:Who cares, anyway? The liars are fucking idiots and their votes count just as much as mine.

Fixed that for you. This is a Democracy. You have to respect the fucking idiots.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby athelas » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:07 am UTC

That some people might have innocent motives for requesting this information does not mean that all receivers of the information will use it innocently.

If this administration believes it has a bounden duty to protect us from our own bad decisions by taking over large portions of health insurance, and thus care, they might spare a thought to protect us from the bad decisions of the worst members of government.

At least one senator has been questioningthis move:
I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy’ or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests,” Sen. Cornyn wrote. “You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights.
Also, this program may not be legal.
Given the near certainty that no one will be stripping from emails the names of the people forwarding on the information, the White House is most likely engaged in unlawful activity.

According to 5 U.S.C. § 552a, United States agencies, including the Executive Office of the President shall, “maintain no record describing how any individual exercises rights guaranteed by the First Amendment unless expressly authorized by statute or by the individual about whom the record is maintained or unless pertinent to and within the scope of an authorized law enforcement activity.”

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:11 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:OBEY

The memo from the PR firm that tells you how to disrupt townhall meetings.

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
psyck0 wrote:Who cares, anyway? The liars are fucking idiots and their votes count just as much as mine.

Fixed that for you. This is a Democracy. You have to respect the fucking idiots.

I don't have to respect them. I just have to out-vote them.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:20 am UTC

Ok, respect the force of their combined idiocy, then, is more like what I meant to say.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:22 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Ok, respect the force of their combined idiocy, then, is more like what I meant to say.

This is an acceptable rephrasing. Here is your baseball bat. Please get to respecting them very severely.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:25 am UTC

Sign this affadavit indicating you take full responsibility.

...

Good.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:33 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Sign this affadavit indicating you take full responsibility.

...

Good.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby i » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:12 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:As I blogged:

The Republicans are all up in arms (the arms that aren’t currently holding torches or cognac) about the ’sweeping fascist Big Brother White House edict for all good Americans to report anyone making fishy comments about the new Health Care plan’. Well, sure, when you say it like that, Obama is obviously a real-holographic-simulated-evil-photonegative-Hitler. A slightly more accurate, less douchebaggy-doublespeak way to phrase it would be the ’sweeping White House request for all Americans who actually pay attention to report anyone spreading lies and slander about the poorly-understood Health Care plan’, because honestly, I’ve seen so much rampaging bullshit about the Health Care thing that I’m surprised the entire country doesn’t have dysentery.


And you are wrong.

If it had been George Bush requesting that Americans report "terroristic-like" activities by their neighbors, you would all be on it like stink on a hot turd sandwich in July. It's a complete double-standard. You're defending a policy just because your leader has a D next to his name.

Anyway:
1. The way Jalapeno puts it still makes it sound fascist and Orwellian. Reread the bolded part if you like. It's Orwell all over it.
2. The Obama admin isn't actually asking for the names, addresses and SSNs.
3. If Jalapeno does include names, addresses, and SSNs in his emails as he and everyone else in this thread imply, then that make y'all douchbags---not the teabaggers. Also tattle-tale authoritarian fascists.
4. Everyone reporting "slanderous claims" are going to include names and this needs to be rethought.
5. Real Americans pronounce the J in Jalapeno.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:20 am UTC

My leader has a C next to his name. My country has a government-controlled universal health care system, and it completely and utterly baffles me why your country is so against your elected leader trying to help you.

I already said I don't agree with this whole scheme, but it's not the fascist Orwellian "put down the free-thinkers" plot you seem to make it out to be.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby i » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:34 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:My leader has a C next to his name.

Whatever.

I already said I don't agree with this whole scheme, but it's not the fascist Orwellian "put down the free-thinkers" plot you seem to make it out to be.

Several things:

1. It's not the Orwellian plot you make it out to be. Go reread your post. You're saying we should report people for saying mean things, and that's A-Okay by you. Even with your "happy speech" it means the same thing.

2. The Obama administration isn't requesting names so it's not even true. I've already said this stuff in my previous post. Just go reread it.

3. The inclusion of the free-thinkers comment in your post screws up the parody. It no longer has good cohesion. It's not tight---it's referencing an unrelated group.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Lumpy » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:36 am UTC

If it had been George Bush requesting that Americans report "terroristic-like" activities by their neighbors


He did, and there was a big hawk-eyed eagle on http://www.fbi.gov over an American flag urging you to report your neighbors if they've done such.

I think the problem here is that it was that this should have been kept separate and done by the Democratic National Committee, not the White House.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby The Reaper » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:43 am UTC

I skimmed over this thread again real quicklike, and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one accusing it of being even remotely orwellian.

And they're not requesting names, they're requesting emails. complete with email address, and in some cases, user information. Tracking someone down with an email isn't very complicated, in the grand scheme of things.

MJ, I still <3 you, but keep your C over there, and please, take these D's, R's, possible S's, and whatnot. They smell funky.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby i » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:55 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:I skimmed over this thread again real quicklike, and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one accusing it of being even remotely orwellian.

Everyone else is going along with the Orwellian interpretation---they're just not calling it Orwellian.

Okay, I'm sick of the word Orwellian now.

And they're not requesting names, they're requesting emails. complete with email address, and in some cases, user information. Tracking someone down with an email isn't very complicated, in the grand scheme of things.

...

Yeah, okay. I guess forwarded email addresses do appear in the message body.... I guess.

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Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:56 am UTC

i wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:My leader has a C next to his name.

Whatever.

Pithy.

i wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:I already said I don't agree with this whole scheme, but it's not the fascist Orwellian "put down the free-thinkers" plot you seem to make it out to be.

Several things:

1. It's not the Orwellian plot you make it out to be. Go reread your post. You're saying we should report people for saying mean things, and that's A-Okay by you. Even with your "happy speech" it means the same thing.

2. The Obama administration isn't requesting names so it's not even true. I've already said this stuff in my previous post. Just go reread it.

3. The inclusion of the free-thinkers comment in your post screws up the parody. It no longer has good cohesion. It's not tight---it's referencing an unrelated group.

1.) No, I didn't. I was explaining that the 'reporting people' is not like the McCarthy Trial bullcrap where people report 'Unamerican Behavior', which you think it is. I was explaining it was an effort to try to control the slander and lies being spread about the whole Health Care thing. It's not A-Okay by me. Reread my posts.

2.) Thanks, tips. We knew that before you got here.

3.) What parody?

i
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:31 pm UTC

Re: Report your fellow citizens' remarks about health care!

Postby i » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:30 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:1.) No, I didn't. I was explaining that the 'reporting people' is not like the McCarthy Trial bullcrap where people report 'Unamerican Behavior', which you think it is.

Yes it is. What do you think the collection of the names of political opponents is like?

That is what you and others describe it as: report anyone spreading lies and slander about the poorly-understood Health Care plan
Substantively identical to the "douchbaggy" way you claim Republicans describe it: all good Americans to report anyone making fishy comments about the new Health Care plan.

Actually now that I look at this, the "douchbaggy Republican way" is closer to what the Obama administration actually requested, as well as sounding less Orwellian.

Mighty Jalapeno wrote: I was explaining it was an effort to try to control the slander and lies being spread about the whole Health Care thing. It's not A-Okay by me. Reread my posts.

Yeah.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Me, too. I'm not entirely behind the way they're going about this,

But you're not outraged enough about it! :evil:


In conclusion, don't "report people". Don't encourage others to "report people". Don't even say "report people".


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