What, you want actual information about health care reform?

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What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

It is a live web cast with Pres. Obama about the health care bill.

Cause being informed is your responsibility.

Then when it is done we can talk about it.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:50 pm UTC

"...it doesn't make any chance."
-The President of the United States of America

Let me know if he intends on actually discussing the actual health care bill.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

way to be a jerk about one little slip up during the introduction.
Cause, um, he is talking about it right now.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Mr. N » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:57 pm UTC

Don't mind Heisenberg, he failed to notice the rolled up sleeves. The President means business.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:03 pm UTC

So... forcing private companies to render services to anyone who asks for them. Interesting. Wouldn't the public option solve the problem of pre-existing conditions? First by offering them an option, and secondly by introducing competition for these customers? Why do we need to force insurance companies to offer policies to the sick and dying?

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:05 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:So... forcing private companies to render services to anyone who asks for them. Interesting. Wouldn't the public option solve the problem of pre-existing conditions? First by offering them an option, and secondly by introducing competition for these customers? Why do we need to force insurance companies to offer policies to the sick and dying?


Because some gits threw a hissyfit over the public option and now we can't have it anymore.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Red Hal » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:"...it doesn't make any chance."
-The President of the United States of America

Let me know if he intends on actually discussing the actual health care bill.


'Fool me once...' You want to cut the cheap shots and discuss the issues? Or does the prospect of informed debate without hyperbole, grandstanding, demagoguery and rabble-rousing do nothing for you?
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:16 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:Or does the prospect of informed debate without hyperbole, grandstanding, demagoguery and rabble-rousing do nothing for you?
That's like asking if a burrito without hot sauce does nothing for me. Sure, we can debate without it, but it's so bland and boring. Also, yes, I'm aware that Bush was at least 10 times worse, that doesn't mean I can't laugh when Obama says something that doesn't make sense.
Belial wrote:Because some gits threw a hissyfit over the public option and now we can't have it anymore.

Fair, but I thought the goal was to insure the uninsured. If you don't get the public option, forcing insurance companies to cater to everyone really isn't going to help that much. Especially if the insurance companies can set the prices accurately (you have diabetes, your rate is ridiculously high to cover the projected costs of treating you). Not really going to help much in terms of getting the poor insured.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Mr. N » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:22 pm UTC

Is there an applause sign somewhere?

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Will » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Fair, but I thought the goal was to insure the uninsured. If you don't get the public option, forcing insurance companies to cater to everyone really isn't going to help that much. Especially if the insurance companies can set the prices accurately (you have diabetes, your rate is ridiculously high to cover the projected costs of treating you). Not really going to help much in terms of getting the poor insured.


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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 pm UTC

So... why is it in the bill? That provision seems to
A) Trample the rights of the insurance companies, and
B) Not get anyone insurance.

Of course, this is assuming that it only forces insurance companies to insure those people who have pre-existing conditions. If it also forces insurance companies to treat pre-existing conditions unknown at time of signing, then it will drive up insurance costs, likely resulting more uninsured Americans.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 pm UTC

Hey, they're talking about alternatives to a public option right now.

It's live!
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:39 pm UTC

Seriously all, watch now, talk later.

It works better to talk about things once you are actually informed instead of going entirely off assumptions.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:42 pm UTC

No thanks. I'll watch the President's address to his huge political machine, but I won't watch the political machine's response to the President's address to his huge political machine.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:45 pm UTC

N&A is the President's political machine?
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Will » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:No thanks. I'll watch the President's address to his huge political machine, but I won't watch the political machine's response to the President's address to his huge political machine.

Translation: "I insist on remaining uninformed about the president's healthcare policy but I still intend to criticize a plan I know jack shit about"
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Red Hal » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:That's like asking if a burrito without hot sauce does nothing for me. Sure, we can debate without it, but it's so bland and boring. Also, yes, I'm aware that Bush was at least 10 times worse, that doesn't mean I can't laugh when Obama says something that doesn't make sense.
A more appropriate analogy would be a burrito without dioxin sauce. The sauce tends to make it exciting, but poisons the food. Let's listen first.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:00 pm UTC

Will wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:No thanks. I'll watch the President's address to his huge political machine, but I won't watch the political machine's response to the President's address to his huge political machine.

Translation: "I insist on remaining uninformed about the president's healthcare policy but I still intend to criticize a plan I know jack shit about"

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:02 pm UTC

Yeah, because going to the government for information about government action would just be stupid.

So, the public option is back on the table, right? I had to keep muting this because people kept coming into my office.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Will » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:05 pm UTC

As far as I can tell it was never off the table. Obama's response was that he "didn't want the debate to focus solely on the public option" because other things, like better regulations for private insurers, were just as important. I agree that those things are vital, but I still see the public option as the most important part of heathcare reform.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:07 pm UTC

Yeah the idea of no public option was kind of just newsmedia amplification.

Too bad he didn't answer my question. It was a good one. Maybe, I don't remember.

I don't personally see a public option as the most important part- though I do insist on it's existence in any situation where we're not going to single payer- to me the overhaul of this industry starts with preventing discriminatory practices.
Which the bill does. Booya.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

I am glad he made those points. Both that a public option is very important for reaching the goals that have been set, and that even without it this bill would have some significant improvements over our current system.
Like the limit on how much insurers can charge (based on actual costs of services, limiting profits).
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Yeah, because going to the government for information about government action would just be stupid.
OFA is not the government. It's a bunch of folks who like to wave Obama signs.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Will » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I don't personally see a public option as the most important part- though I do insist on it's existence in any situation where we're not going to single payer- to me the overhaul of this industry starts with preventing discriminatory practices.

I'm certainly with you on that, but for me the biggest issue is those ~50 million people that can't afford healthcare of any kind as it is, and ending discriminatory practices won't do anything to lower the cost of healthcare and make it more affordable for those people.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:13 pm UTC

yeah, the notion that we could continue to allow Insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing health problems is absurd. Absurd to anyone who knows anyone who was born with something requiring treatment, or has diabetes, etc.
I have known enough people in my life who complained to me that they couldn't afford to go to the doctor, or couldn't afford their prescriptions, or didn't get coverage for one reason or another... it's time to say, Enough.

Heisenberg: I never said that OFA was the government. I'm pretty sure though, but you can correct me on this one, Barack Obama is our President right?
Seriously stop being obtuse on purpose.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:14 pm UTC

I really hoped I would not have to say this but it turns out I do.

When the president is talking and answering questions, you are actually getting information from him without added spin. Funny how live interviews work that way. You can actually get information if you listen. (meaux ninja)

Also, see my last post about ways it wants to limit profits to lower costs.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:15 pm UTC

Also, unlike the many idiot reps that didn't read the bill and are telling their constituents to run for the hills because the dark one is going to kill us, he actually seems to know what's in the fucking bill.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Darkscull » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:16 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:Yeah, because going to the government for information about government action would just be stupid.
OFA is not the government. It's a bunch of folks who like to wave Obama signs.


Unless I'm mistaken (not watching the thing), this is the president speaking. How is that not the government?

Do the hosts of press conference type things write the speech now?


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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:17 pm UTC

Oh, is Obama still talking? I stopped watching when all the clapping happened and random OFA guy got up.

Edit: Anyway, this isn't really addressed to me. Why is Obama explaining the health care plan in an address to his loyal party members but not to the American people?
Last edited by Heisenberg on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:19 pm UTC

Then GTFO of this thread, and go post somewhere that I don't care about, if you're going to be useless.

Pro Tip: having a reasonable objection or question about the actual OP topic would be less useless.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:20 pm UTC

I sort of wish it could have been a little more in depth, actually going into more of what the bill says instead of spending time reminding people that liars say things about the bill that are not true (cause they don't like health or the USA I guess). of course, I was also multitasking at work so I might have missed some of it.

The bill limits insurers to 15% profit maybe? and the rest of what is collected has to go back into patient care. I like that idea a bit. Also, not being able to turn people down or drop their coverage is a nice bit too.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Oh, is Obama still talking? I stopped watching when all the clapping happened and random OFA guy got up.

Edit: Anyway, this isn't really addressed to me. Why is Obama explaining the health care plan in an address to his loyal party members but not to the American people?

What did I say about being obtuse on purpose?

OFA is his representatives. People who got him elected by doing things like going door-to-door. The people who, if you had been watching, he urged to go out and talk to their neighbors, friends, family, and such, about the bill, so as to stop this wretched misinformation campaign. That's why. You're welcome.

Also- all of them are American People, actually.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Darkscull » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:26 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote: Why is Obama explaining the health care plan in an address to his loyal party members but not to the American people?


I could watch it if I wanted, and I'm not even American.

You mean why isn't it being spoonfed to lazy people by people like fox news? well, probably because they have a vested interest in confusing the facts, not presenting them.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:27 pm UTC

I know that I (as an American Person) was aware of this event because the white house sends me emails to update me on what is going on. Meaning anyone who has at one point asked the White House to keep them informed would know about this. Or if they saw a twitter or facebook thing bout it.

But really, if you have been given the chance to find out what he had to say and you decided not to you don't get to argue in this thread. This is for people who took the minimal effort needed to inform themselves. Go be ignorant elsewhere.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:28 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:The people who, if you had been watching, he urged to go out and talk to their neighbors, friends, family, and such, about the bill, so as to stop this wretched misinformation campaign.

I saw that part. So, what you're saying is, instead of informing the American people about what was in the health care bill, he called up his buddies and told them to get out there and yell back at all those misinformed people out there.
sophyturtle wrote:The bill limits insurers to 15% profit maybe?

On my list of ways to reform health care, "Telling private companies what they may and may not do" is at the bottom.
Darkscull wrote:You mean why isn't it being spoonfed to lazy people by people like fox news?

No, I mean, why didn't he hold a press conference at the White House about health care instead of rolling over to DNC headquarters to rally troops to join in the yelling?

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Mr. N » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:39 pm UTC

After the sparring match you guys are in is finished, Heisenberg is right that this wasn't some big news conference. He didn't say anything earth shattering at all. He was just rallying his troops to keep the push on for healthcare reform. Nothing wrong with that either because he is in the position to do that. No sense in ya'll getting all sweaty over it.

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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:44 pm UTC

Stop. he explained a bunch of stuff. if you had payed attention you would know that.
if you want to bitch about how the information was presented make your own thread. We are going to discuss the bill now. Everyone please remember not to feed the trolls.

He did go into the public option and how that impacts the rest of the bill, which I think is an important point. Also, placing limits is all we can do unless we just switch over to single payer (which I am certainly not against, but which is not possible with the current political landscape).

One thing he did not mention but I kinda wish he did was how inclusive the term 'family' is in the bill. Maybe he did not mention it cause it seemed obvious?

I sort of want to figure out what bits we want to look at more so I can make sure I at least look at it more and can help inform people. It seems in this informing people is the only real hurdle to getting it passed.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Vaniver » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:45 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:yeah, the notion that we could continue to allow Insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing health problems is absurd. Absurd to anyone who knows anyone who was born with something requiring treatment, or has diabetes, etc.
I have known enough people in my life who complained to me that they couldn't afford to go to the doctor, or couldn't afford their prescriptions, or didn't get coverage for one reason or another... it's time to say, Enough.
That's the difference between insurance and coverage. Insurance is a small, certain payment now for a large, uncertain payout in the future. Replacing that with a small, certain payment now for a large, certain payout in the future makes the system win/lose, which means that private organizations won't touch it (unless they're charitable or have some other benefit from doing it).

I mean, if you know that someone has a chronic condition that costs $500 a month to deal with, why would you offer that person medical care for less than $500 a month? Assuming it's your money that you're losing, not other people's.

Now, if everyone is getting covered, you can afford to charge the person who you know will cost $500 a month less than $500 a month- by overcharging other people. If you've got one old person with costs of $500, and two young people with expected costs of $50 each, you can charge everyone $200 a month. But, that's just income transfer from the healthy to the sick, from the young to the old- and I'm not sure that's reform I agree with. Particularly because transfers from the young to the old are regressive.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby EMTP » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:47 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I saw that part. So, what you're saying is, instead of informing the American people about what was in the health care bill, he called up his buddies and told them to get out there and yell back at all those misinformed people out there.


That's a false dichotomy. The opposition to the health care bills in not driven by lack of information. There's lots of information available. The comically irrational people screaming "Heil Hitler!" at healthcare rallies are suffering not from a lack of information, but from a lack of sense. It's driven by politics -- and the appropriate answer to politics, the only effective answer, is smarter politics, in this case, getting your supporters involved.

On my list of ways to reform health care, "Telling private companies what they may and may not do" is at the bottom.


Why should I care what you think? All industries are regulated. Food, housing, banking, healthcare today -- all have restrictions pertaining to what they may sell, how they may market it, and what they may charge (think usury laws, anti-dumping regulations). This is true of all modern, functioning states. Libertarians feel all this regulation is a terrible idea and a gross violation of human freedom. When they can attract more than 3% of the vote in a national election, the rest of us may have to start taking this philosophy seriously.
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Re: What, you want actual information about health care reform?

Postby Will » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:50 pm UTC

And where exactly do you expect money to come from, Vaniver? Healthcare for chronic conditions or sudden life-threatening ailments is far too expensive for the vast majority of people to deal with. A week's stay at a hospital can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars. Most people do not have enough wealth to cover those kinds of costs, so the money has to come from somewhere. It either comes from taxes, and the sick benefit disproportionately, or it comes from premiums paid and (gasp) the sick benefit disproportionately. There is no way for the sick to not benefit disproportionately from health coverage. The entire point of this is for us as a people to fucking grow up and accept that it's worth the burden on society to take care of our sick instead of damning them to financial ruin.
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