Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

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Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby lesliesage » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby JBJ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:01 pm UTC

I'd cut him some slack. Not because I agree with his thesis paper, which I don't. A thesis doesn't have to be something you personally believe in order to defend it. I am 35 and currently writing a paper for school that applies Machiavellian advice to current events. Do I believe them? No, but I have to be able to make arguments for it and defend my paper. If ever end up running for office and this paper is used against me, I'd be in some big trouble for some of the views it contains.

Now, this is the same tactic the right is using to blast White House Office of Science and Technology nominee John Holdren about his multi-authored book from 1977 that took an objective look at population control methods. He and the other two authors did not endorse the methods, but that isn't stopping conservative commentators for claiming he supports "sterilization" and "compulsory abortions."

I just don't want to sink to their level.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby A. Akbar » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:09 pm UTC

Well, working women and feminists have been detrimental to the traditional family, in that it is no longer placed on such a high pedestal and is no longer considered as important. I think most feminists would agree with this (as a feminist myself). Where opinions diverge is whether you consider this a bad thing, I don't know his view on this so I can't speak. Though, as he's a republican I find it unlikely I would agree with him.
Also, one can change ones opinion at any age, even if he wrote this at 34 it's entirely plausible he's had a sudden change of shorts.
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lesliesage wrote:The DNC has committed to spending $5mil to defeat him. Go Dems.


I find it kinda depressing that that's how politics in America are seen, how much money it's worth to get your guy in power.

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:21 pm UTC

My knee-jerk reaction was that he sucks.

I still think he probably believed his thesis to a degree, but its possible he was just writing what he though was easy to prove. And/or looking for a scapegoat though a republicans eyes.

What I think mostly gets him "out of jail" is that he has two daughters and they both have masters degrees, which basically proves he thinks women should seek higher education and be in the work force.
If I am not mistaken, his wife has an advanced degree and works as well.

I wouldn't vote for him. And I hope the democrats demonize the hell out him for this... to win the election.

But I doubt he actually subscribes to that old thesis and it probably says very little about his views today. It was written in the 80's right?


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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Sharlos » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:26 pm UTC

A. Akbar wrote:I find it kinda depressing that that's how politics in America are seen, how much money it's worth to get your guy in power.


I think its more than just 'seem', you can't get into office without millions of dollars to spend campaigning.

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby scrovak » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:53 pm UTC

It's about time someone in power tells those damn women-folk to get back in the kitchen.

/sarcasm
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Belial » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:54 pm UTC

Oh Virginia. I'm so glad I don't live in you anymore.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Heavenlytoaster » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

A. Akbar wrote:
lesliesage wrote:The DNC has committed to spending $5mil to defeat him. Go Dems.


I find it kinda depressing that that's how politics in America are seen, how much money it's worth to get your guy in power.


Its a good thing to spend more money than them, because it means you do better!

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Kizyr » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:22 pm UTC

I love Virginia. It's gonna be fun seeing this guy get defeated.

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Crius » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:14 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:He was 34 when he wrote that thesis at Pat Roberton's Christian-culty-university. This was no youthful indiscretion. There is no excuse at that age, and there is no reason to think his views have evolved.


There's nothing stopping an adult from changing their views as they get older, especially considering that it's been 20 years since he wrote that paper.

Not that I'd automatically assume he has changed his views, though, but it's far from the damning evidence you're presenting it as.

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Spacemilk » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:42 pm UTC

Hm. Considering how I might be moving to Fairfax next year, this is relevant to my interests.

I know it's very possible that he's changed his views within the last 20 years, but it seems like people are missing this one sentence in the OP's quote:
fivethirtyeight wrote:Four of McDonnell's former Republican colleagues in the state legislature confirm that McDonnell's political views as a state legislator were consistent with views he published in that thesis.

Reading the article, it looks like those colleagues (does the former refer to the word colleagues, or to the word Republican?) support McDonnell's Democratic opponent Deeds.

What I'd like to see is information on McDonnell's voting record - does his record show his support of these views at all?

You can find the original thesis here. I've made it to page 31 and I don't see anything that's really "anti-women in the workplace". Rather, most of his views seem to say that a family that stays together and doesn't let the children be raised by "institutions" (i.e., that at least one parent is there to ensure the kids get raised well rather than passing them off to third parties to raise the children) then society will benefit. He says that women joining the workforce was a point where no one was really raising the kids anymore because both spouses were then working; but his conclusion from that doesn't seem to be that women should stop working, just that one spouse needs to perhaps take time to be with the kids. It's not so much anti-women as it is anti-double income.

Basically it seems he's arguing in favor of programs that allow families to raise their kids better without having to resort to double-incomes so they can afford to hire other people to raise their kids. But again, I'm only on page 31 of 99 so he may well get to an anti-women point soon. This typewritten crap is hard to read though. >.<
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Vaniver » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:17 pm UTC

He also has prominent female supporters, who believe the thesis is not important and/or he's changed.

Robert McCartney wrote:Unhappily for McDonnell, except for a hard-core minority, voters have made clear in recent elections that they don't want the kind of intolerant policies that he espoused then. They believe that women, including mothers, are welcome in the workplace. They believe that government should let people decide for themselves whether to use contraception. Even Republican grass-roots activists said they support equal rights for gays, except when it comes to marriage.

Disapproval of homosexuality "doesn't mean you have to outcast those people," Charlotte Heagney of Falmouth, a Republican campaign volunteer, said after a meeting with McDonnell at the Fredericksburg party headquarters Tuesday afternoon. The candidate wrote in his thesis that the government should "restrain, punish and deter" homosexuality.

The public shift toward accepting working women and gays explains why McDonnell is trying so hard to make the controversy go away. But it's raised two critical questions: Has McDonnell really changed his views? And is the Republican Party ready to publicly give up pushing religious-right social issues to regain power in Virginia and nationally?

The first question will probably be contested through Election Day. Although McDonnell has resisted going into detail about how his views have evolved, he has said that he believes government should not discriminate against gays or ban contraceptives and that he supports women in the workplace. He stresses that he wanted to be judged by his 18-year record in the General Assembly and as attorney general.

It's clear from the thesis, which included a 15-point program for the Republican Party, that he entered politics largely to promote religious social conservatism. Virginians are right to ask whether he has shed his original positions or is merely concealing them to appeal to voters.

"I've known Bob well enough to know that he's moderated, because of ambition. That's why he's moved," said Larry J. Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia and a longtime observer of McDonnell's career. To assuage vital swing voters, Sabato said, McDonnell "has to make very clear pledges that he's not going to go out and push any of these [social] issues," even though the Republican right wing will "scream and yell" in protest.

Some voters are skeptical. McDonnell's thesis showed that "if you're not a married, white Anglo-Saxon . . . family, you don't have a place in society, in his view," said Mike King, 56, a travel agency owner and Rotary Club member.

Regarding the future of the party as a whole, McDonnell's campaign was supposed to be a model for a new Republican strategy of downplaying social issues to focus on lowering taxes, cutting regulation and reducing government waste. The approach was off to a smashing start. Before my colleague Amy Gardner revealed the thesis in a story Sunday, McDonnell was way ahead of state Sen. R. Creigh Deeds (Bath) in most polls, including one by The Washington Post last month that had him ahead by 7 percentage points.
source

In some ways I hope he wins, so that there's more evidence that Republicans who give up their social conservative roots have better odds than Republicans who stick to their social conservative roots. But there's always the risk that he campaigns as the first and becomes the second.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Lucrece » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:32 pm UTC

He has not moved his views at all, at least on homosexuals. His recent voting record is filled with votes for anti-gay legislation.

Really, people who emerge from these politically indoctrinated, Christian fundamentalist institutions don't change unless the planets align and some sort of miracle pours enlightenment on them.

And this is the same Virginia that instituted an anti-gay marriage amendment so spiteful that it even disallows gay couples from registering in their Blockbuster as family.

Any region outside of the Northeast will have to be arm-wrestled by the feds (courts, in this case) into complying. They've had to do it with several minorities; they'll have to do it with gays. Otherwise, it's just some self-reinforcing cycle in a culture that will stay the same since they institute laws that make living in such a state as a gay man so unfeasible.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Vaniver » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:37 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Really, people who emerge from these politically indoctrinated, Christian fundamentalist institutions don't change unless the planets align and some sort of miracle pours enlightenment on them.
Politicians are politicians. You can't tell whether someone is principled or ambitious from where they come from or a few choices they've made (since the ambitious will mimic the principled whenever it's beneficial- they're ambitious!), so we're mostly left with character references. A number of his colleagues think he still believes this way; a political commenter following his career thinks he won't behave that way. I don't know enough about his competition to say who I'd vote for, but I will say that the Republicans moving away from social issues being their backbone is a very good thing, and they can't recruit a new crop of politicians overnight.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby lesliesage » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:43 pm UTC

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Lucrece » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:51 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Really, people who emerge from these politically indoctrinated, Christian fundamentalist institutions don't change unless the planets align and some sort of miracle pours enlightenment on them.
Politicians are politicians. You can't tell whether someone is principled or ambitious from where they come from or a few choices they've made (since the ambitious will mimic the principled whenever it's beneficial- they're ambitious!), so we're mostly left with character references. A number of his colleagues think he still believes this way; a political commenter following his career thinks he won't behave that way. I don't know enough about his competition to say who I'd vote for, but I will say that the Republicans moving away from social issues being their backbone is a very good thing, and they can't recruit a new crop of politicians overnight.



But he HASN'T changed with other positions as a politician. It's just talk. When he gets in office, he won't have to push social issues; the bigots will readily bring the issue to him for his signature, and he can still vote against any LGBT bills that reach his desk. Vetoing bills isn't prioritizing social issues, he can say he's just enacting his role as elected official, and he can still keep that mask of Republican moderate.

Check out Florida's Charlie Crist. Campaigning? He said an amendment to the Florida constitution on gay marriage wasn't needed. That he was considering the adoption ban, that it had to be reexamined. He maintained that mask of moderation until the issues were brought to him. Amendment 2 passed with his endorsement (complete reversal), 150000 of the 200000 dollars that funded the amendment coming from the Florida Republican party-- his party-- and he has made comments affirming the ban on gay adoption.

All Republicans need to do during the election is play moderate. When they get in office, they can be as partisan as they want with gay rights issue, since most people with exception of the small gay population won't give a shit about some anti-gay legislation being passed.

Just check out his record. All the talk from fawning coworkers and people in his own party don't change what he has done very recently.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:57 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:This Sabato guy said nothing about how he would govern; he said he moderated not due to enlightenment, but due to ambition, which is alarming -- ambition to get the backing of power for these ideas?
I have not read the article in question and have absolutely nothing to add to this discussion beyond this: Politicians are ambitious creatures. It is impossible to get into the political arena at this level and not be ambitious as all fuck. There isn't a politician in Washington - liberal or conservative, progressive or traditionalist - who got there for want of ambition.

If I'm sniping this out of context and there's a specific reason that ambition is 'bad' in this specific circumstance, then I beg your pardon in advance!

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby lesliesage » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:01 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If I'm sniping this out of context and there's a specific reason that ambition is 'bad' in this specific circumstance, then I beg your pardon in advance!
Yeah, I'm not saying that at all. I didn't say ambition was bad, I said the motive for him allegedly espousing a moderate platform -- that motive being ambition and not enlightenment -- is bad.

Like... Obama is ambitious, but I don't think he voted against the Iraq war out of ambition. I think Clinton voted for it out of ambition, and I'm glad she was rebuked on that point.

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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Vaniver » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:27 pm UTC

Lesliesage/Lucrece- I mostly agree. I would be far happier seeing McDonnell's ilk fading from the scene and people who never attended Traditionalism Prep School start doing better in Republican primaries.* Having this sort of opinion when facing other Republicans would mean a lot more than having this sort of opinion when facing a Democrat. But moderation, in action or dialogue, is an improvement- and I think the better thing to do is focus the discussion on recent actions rather than old statements. I'm not familiar with McDonnell's record- and it's very likely/possible he's been far more conservative than he's claiming to be now. But framing the discussion as "ok, we'll believe you're a moderate, when your recent record shows it" is a lot more inducive to moderateness than "we can't believe you're a moderate because of what you said in a thesis."

*We saw some of this with Reagan and Romney; it would be nice to see it go further.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby Allium Cepa » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:28 pm UTC

I'm in the same school as his sons. Which Eric Cantor's kids also attended. Go figure.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby fjafjan » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:34 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:Like... Obama is ambitious, but I don't think he voted against the Iraq war out of ambition. I think Clinton voted for it out of ambition, and I'm glad she was rebuked on that point.

Quick derail, Obamas reason for voting against the Iraq war were highly unideallistic and practical in Nature. He voted against it for ambition, because he felt it would be expensive and impractical, not unethical.
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Re: Professed misogynist is running for governor of Virginia

Postby lesliesage » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:28 pm UTC

We disagree. I also don't think "impractical" and "unethical" are mutually exclusive.


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