Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Belial » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:23 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:It's based on actions.


No it isn't.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:24 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:It's based on actions.


No it isn't.

So I can win an award for not doing anything? Sign me up.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Belial » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

As one of the committee said, it's often given as a "keep heading in the direction you're heading" message to people they feel are headed for big and important things, or as a reminder of what direction they should be heading. So yes, you could get one for doing nothing, as long as you looked like you had the power to do great things and you intended to do them (ie not you, actually). If the committee thought it was more useful to motivate you than to reward someone else, that is.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:33 pm UTC

Belial wrote:As one of the committee said, it's often given as a "keep heading in the direction you're heading" message to people they feel are headed for big and important things, or as a reminder of what direction they should be heading. So yes, you could get one for doing nothing, as long as you looked like you had the power to do great things and you intended to do them. If the committee thought it was more useful to motivate you than to reward someone else, that is.

So it's a reward for being President and a politician. I thought that's what being President was for?
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Belial » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:36 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:So it's a reward for being President and a politician. I thought that's what being President was for?


Oh absolutely, because there's just no difference whatsoever between Obama's approach and, say, Bush's.

You've certainly cut right to the heart of this issue.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:44 pm UTC

I don't know about you, but I think Bush was a doer decider! What has Jesus Obama done? Nothing! Who's he invaded? No-one! Some Noble prize winner this is.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:35 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Oh absolutely, because there's just no difference whatsoever between Obama's approach and, say, Bush's.

You've certainly cut right to the heart of this issue.

Since when it is a "we'll compare you to the last guy who held your position" award? Or is that the punchline to what's become the the Nobel Peace Joke? If it is, it's not very funny. Where is Reagan's Peace Prize? He achieved peace in the hostage situation in 20 minutes, whereas Carter couldn't during the 444 days it lasted. In fact, Carter took a WAR-MONGER'S APPROACH!

EDIT: Whoops. Just realized. That was Reagan's action. Shoot. He should've promised to free the hostages his whole campaign trail as if all it took was for him to waltz in and grab them himself, then when he was elected, should've done nothing, but keep saying he was going to do something. *That* was Reagan's mistake. *That's* why he doesn't have a Peace Prize.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:41 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:It's based on actions.


No it isn't.

The intention of the prize was to be based on actions. Now it's apparently a popularity contest.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:The intention of the prize was to be based on actions. Now it's apparently a popularity contest.

Not even, if what Belial is saying is true. It becomes a "You're so good at being a politician" award, which basically just means you have to promise a bunch of stuff that will "solve EVERYONE'S problems!", then win the office.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby BlackSails » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Belial wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:It's based on actions.


No it isn't.

The intention of the prize was to be based on actions. Now it's apparently a popularity contest.



The intent of the prize was to be given to whomever "during the preceding year [...] shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses"

Obama hasnt done very much, but he has increased fraternity between nations.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Belial » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
Belial wrote:Oh absolutely, because there's just no difference whatsoever between Obama's approach and, say, Bush's.

You've certainly cut right to the heart of this issue.

Since when it is a "we'll compare you to the last guy who held your position" award?


You made the comparison when you said that he was just "being a president". Try to keep up.

BlackSails wrote:The intent of the prize was to be given to whomever "during the preceding year [...] shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses"

Obama hasnt done very much, but he has increased fraternity between nations.


Basically. I mean Wilson got it for an enterprise he helped think up, talked about, championed, and then never succeeded in actually implementing or even getting his own country to buy into.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:53 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:The intent of the prize was to be given to whomever "during the preceding year [...] shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses"

Obama hasnt done very much, but he has increased fraternity between nations.

But fails the "abolition or reduction of standing armies" requirement.

(OT: Is anyone else having to post, log in, post, log in, post, then log in again before it will actually post?)

You made the comparison when you said that he was just "being a president". Try to keep up.

Nope.
Belial wrote:So yes, you could get one for doing nothing, as long as you looked like you had the power to do great things and you intended to do them.

(emphasis mine)
Thus making it (according to you) a reward for being President.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Belial » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:58 pm UTC

Thus making it (according to you) a reward for being President.


Nope. I would remember saying that, because it would be so out of character for me. See, because I recognize that different presidents have had different stated goals, aims, and approaches, and would never be so idiotic as to imply that every one of them has been identically acceptable and admirable to a committee dedicated to rewarding peaceful relations by stating that such a mindset and stated ethos was universally applicable to "being a president".

I mean, that would be pretty stupid on my end. I wouldn't forget that.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Cynical Idealist » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:59 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
You made the comparison when you said that he was just "being a president". Try to keep up.

Nope.

H2SO4 wrote:So it's a reward for being President and a politician.

And then Belial pointed out that another person who was also a President and a politician didn't get it for some very good reasons.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:01 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Nope. I would remember saying that, because it would be so out of character for me. See, because I recognize that different presidents have had different stated goals, aims, and approaches, and would never be so idiotic as to imply that every one of them has been identically acceptable and admirable by a committee dedicated to rewarding peaceful relations by stating that such a mindset and stated ethos was universally applicable to "being a president".

I mean, that would be pretty stupid on my end. I wouldn't forget that.

Whoops. My bad. And you have to promise everything to do with peace, but screw DOING stuff. Doing stuff is so overrated. I don't know why anyone does anymore. All the cool kids aren't doing anything!
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:17 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I mean Wilson got it for an enterprise he helped think up, talked about, championed, and then never succeeded in actually implementing or even getting his own country to buy into.

Founding the League of Nations >>>> Promising to give diplomacy a try.

Seriously, the dude founded an organization whose goal was preventing all future wars. At the time, it seemed like a pretty good step towards peace.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:20 pm UTC

Belial, you misunderstood my grammar, though I will admit I wasn't entirely clear. It is an award *to Obama* for being President.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:27 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:Whoops. My bad. And you have to promise everything to do with peace, but screw DOING stuff. Doing stuff is so overrated. I don't know why anyone does anymore. All the cool kids aren't doing anything!

Heisenberg wrote:Founding the League of Nations >>>> Promising to give diplomacy a try.

Seriously, the dude founded an organization whose goal was preventing all future wars. At the time, it seemed like a pretty good step towards peace.

Did you guys know that oversimplifying and mischaracterizing your opponent's arguments can actually be counterproductive in a debate? It also doesn't really help you "win."

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:32 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:Did you guys know that oversimplifying and mischaracterizing your opponent's arguments can actually be counterproductive in a debate? It also doesn't really help you "win."

Great. When I oversimplify or mischaracterize his argument I'll keep that in mind.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:33 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:Did you guys know that oversimplifying and mischaracterizing your opponent's arguments can actually be counterproductive in a debate? It also doesn't really help you "win."
Did I misinterpret? I thought Belial was arguing that Obama did more to facilitate peace than Wilson did. If so, this is a more concise response:
Spoiler:
ImageImage

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:33 pm UTC

Belial wrote:As one of the committee said, it's often given as a "keep heading in the direction you're heading" message to people they feel are headed for big and important things, or as a reminder of what direction they should be heading. So yes, you could get one for doing nothing, as long as you looked like you had the power to do great things and you intended to do them (ie not you, actually). If the committee thought it was more useful to motivate you than to reward someone else, that is.


When has it ever been given for that in the past?

Belial wrote:I mean Wilson got it for an enterprise he helped think up, talked about, championed, and then never succeeded in actually implementing or even getting his own country to buy into.


The League of Nations never got implemented? Man, I need to complain to my history teachers, I thought it did.

Although, yeah, the US never signed up for it.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby BlackSails » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:51 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:But fails the "abolition or reduction of standing armies" requirement.



You dont need to do all 3. Whomever does the most at X and Y and Z can be someone who has done only X.

(OT: Is anyone else having to post, log in, post, log in, post, then log in again before it will actually post?)


It does that sometimes for me too. Try deleting your xkcd cookie and logging in after that.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

H2SO4 wrote:Great. When I oversimplify or mischaracterize his argument I'll keep that in mind.

Did you keep it in mind when you characterized Belial's argument as "screw doing stuff"? 'Cause if so, rock on, I guess.

Heisenberg wrote:Did I misinterpret? I thought Belial was arguing that Obama did more to facilitate peace than Wilson did. If so, this is a more concise response:
Spoiler:
ImageImage

Belial gave an example of a Nobel peace laureate who fostered peace with arguably unsuccessful results. He didn't say Obama did more. And how is posting a picture of Obama kitsch not an oversimplification/mischaracterization of his qualifications?

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:02 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:Belial gave an example of a Nobel peace laureate who fostered peace with arguably unsuccessful results.
And I was arguing. In fact, there's no way you could say the League of Nations was entirely unsuccessful. Perhaps the first stab at an international body didn't quite take, but the UN stands as a testament to the vision of Nobel Laureate Woodrow Wilson.
Woxor wrote:He didn't say Obama did more.
That was the implication. If he wasn't holding Wilson up for comparison, then it was entirely irrelevant. Still, if I misinterpret Belial, I'm sure he'll let me know. There's really no need for you to stick your nose in.

The comparison is that Wilson founded an international body with the express purpose of ending war. You do that, and get most of the nations to show up, and you'll get a peace prize too. The guy badgered the Senate to adopt it so hard he had a stroke. Obama won an election. And there were action figures. This was not a reward for making strides toward peace but a popularity contest at worst, and a vote of confidence at best. That's fine, as long as we acknowledge that the Peace Prize has fundamentally changed its scope.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:26 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:That was the implication. If he wasn't holding Wilson up for comparison, then it was entirely irrelevant.

My point was that just because someone argues that they're comparable doesn't mean they're saying Obama is better.

Heisenberg wrote:Obama won an election. And there were action figures.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's dishonest to imply that these are the sum total of Obama's effect on the world.

Heisenberg wrote:Still, if I misinterpret Belial, I'm sure he'll let me know. There's really no need for you to stick your nose in.

You posted it on a message board, but okay, jeez.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:42 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:Obama won an election. And there were action figures.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's dishonest to imply that these are the sum total of Obama's effect on the world.


Yes, but it would be outright subversive to add "and then he invaded Afghanistan."
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:44 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:Did you keep it in mind when you characterized Belial's argument as "screw doing stuff"? 'Cause if so, rock on, I guess.

Yep. That's pretty much all I've seen from him. "Actions mean nothing. Just promise a bunch and you'll get praise."
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:06 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:Yes, but it would be outright subversive to add "and then he invaded Afghanistan."

What? I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly.

H2SO4 wrote:Yep. That's pretty much all I've seen from him. "Actions mean nothing. Just promise a bunch and you'll get praise."

I have a hard time believing that even you don't see that as oversimplifying and mischaracterizing.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby H2SO4 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:04 am UTC

Woxor wrote:I have a hard time believing that even you don't see that as oversimplifying and mischaracterizing.

How is it? What am I mischaracterizing about his point? What am I oversimplifying about it? He's clearly stated that he thinks the Nobel Peace Prize can be given to those who look like they have the power to follow through with what they've promised with regards to peace, therefore, in Obama's case, it's an award for being President and a politician, not for anything he's done. True, we won't know the other 204 nominees for the prize until about 2059, so we can't judge relative to the other nominees actions, but let's be realistic here: how hard would it be to accomplish more for peace than Obama did in those two months before he was nominated?
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Kain » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:35 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
Woxor wrote:I have a hard time believing that even you don't see that as oversimplifying and mischaracterizing.

How is it? What am I mischaracterizing about his point? What am I oversimplifying about it? He's clearly stated that he thinks the Nobel Peace Prize can be given to those who look like they have the power to follow through with what they've promised with regards to peace, therefore, in Obama's case, it's an award for being President and a politician, not for anything he's done. True, we won't know the other 204 nominees for the prize until about 2059, so we can't judge relative to the other nominees actions, but let's be realistic here: how hard would it be to accomplish more for peace than Obama did in those two months before he was nominated?


Yet again: He did not win the award for what he did before he was nominated. He had, however, caught the attention of the Nobel commitee. Along with hundreds of other people. He won the award for his actions up to the time of the prize being awarded, and for the actions the commitee felt he would take, and for the change in political climate he represented, and for etc etc etc...
Was he the right person to win this award? Maybe, I really don't know. Was he awarded this based on his actions solely taken in January and February? Hell no.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Woxor wrote:
Philwelch wrote:Yes, but it would be outright subversive to add "and then he invaded Afghanistan."

What? I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly.


"Obama won an election and there were action figures" implies that he got the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing but good intentions.

"Obama won an election, there were action figures, and then he invaded Afghanistan" implies that he won the Nobel Peace Prize despite not being a very peaceful president.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:50 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:How is it? What am I mischaracterizing about his point? What am I oversimplifying about it?

I'll let Belial give the definitive answers to those quesitons, but for starters, this:
the Nobel Peace Prize can be given to those who look like they have the power to follow through with what they've promised with regards to peace, therefore, in Obama's case, it's an award for being President and a politician, not for anything he's done.
is not the same thing as this:
Actions mean nothing. Just promise a bunch and you'll get praise.
You're being hyperbolic with someone else's point, i.e., mischaracterizing it. "Actions mean nothing" is not something I can extract from any of Belial's posts in this thread.

Philwelch wrote:"Obama won an election and there were action figures" implies that he got the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing but good intentions.

"Obama won an election, there were action figures, and then he invaded Afghanistan" implies that he won the Nobel Peace Prize despite not being a very peaceful president.

Okay, sure, but that's just as irrelevant as the action figures, since Obama didn't invade Afghanistan any more than he invaded Germany.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:19 am UTC

Woxor wrote:
Philwelch wrote:"Obama won an election and there were action figures" implies that he got the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing but good intentions.

"Obama won an election, there were action figures, and then he invaded Afghanistan" implies that he won the Nobel Peace Prize despite not being a very peaceful president.

Okay, sure, but that's just as irrelevant as the action figures, since Obama didn't invade Afghanistan any more than he invaded Germany.


Pray tell, how many combat operations have US forces in Germany been involved in since January? How many casualties have they suffered? How much of Germany does the central German government actually control?
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby kittah » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:24 am UTC

As the leader of one of the most influential countries if the world, President Obama has stated ideals that are very similar to the ideals that are stated: "Alfred Nobel supported those who spoke up against militarism and war, and wanted to make a contribution to work for disarmament and the peaceful solution of international conflicts." (Source)

These are the current policies that Obama has supported:
-Ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture.
-Appointed Special Envoys for Climate Change, Southwest Asia, the Middle East, Sudan, and a Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan.
-Announced a plan to responsibly end the War in Iraq.
-Announced a new strategy for Pakistan and Afghanistan.
-Announced a strategy to address the international nuclear threat.
-Agreed to negotiation of a new Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia.
-Established a new "U.S.-China Strategic and Economic Dialogue".
-Announced new policy steps towards Cuba.
(source)

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:38 am UTC

kittah wrote:These are the current policies that Obama has supported:
-Ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture.


The prison remains open for business, of course.

kittah wrote:-Announced a plan to responsibly end the War in Iraq.


"Announced" is another word for "talked but didn't actually do anything". US troops remain deployed in Iraq.

kittah wrote:-Announced a new strategy for Pakistan and Afghanistan.


Also: deployed thousands of combat troops to Afghanistan.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:56 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:Pray tell, how many combat operations have US forces in Germany been involved in since January? How many casualties have they suffered? How much of Germany does the central German government actually control?

What the hell are you talking about?

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:01 am UTC

Woxor wrote:
Philwelch wrote:
Woxor wrote:Obama didn't invade Afghanistan any more than he invaded Germany.
Pray tell, how many combat operations have US forces in Germany been involved in since January? How many casualties have they suffered? How much of Germany does the central German government actually control?

What the hell are you talking about?


You compared Obama's deployment of troops to Afghanistan to Obama's continual maintenance of a troop presence in Germany. I was illustrating the absurdity of that comparison.

I added your original comment back to the quote pyramid to make this point more obvious.
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netcrusher88
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:32 am UTC

The troop presence in Germany is a peacetime presence. So is the troop presence in Japan, Guam (which is technically a territory, I believe) and any number of military bases around the world. It's rapid response, basically - it's what you get to do (and have to do) when you're the world's last superpower.

A better example would be the troop presence in South Korea.
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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Woxor » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:You compared Obama's deployment of troops to Afghanistan to Obama's continual maintenance of a troop presence in Germany. I was illustrating the absurdity of that comparison.

I added your original comment back to the quote pyramid to make this point more obvious.

I think there was a miscommunication. I wasn't referring to Obama's deployment of troops to Afghanistan or his troop presence in Germany. Let me rephrase: Obama didn't invade Afghanistan any more than he invaded Mars.

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Re: Um... Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize?

Postby Philwelch » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:47 am UTC

"Invasion" isn't technically the right word. But he did rather aggressively expand the war there.
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Perfection is an unattainable goal.


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