Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

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Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby luketheduke » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:39 am UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8301120.stm
Spoiler:
Obama to end military gay policy

Obama: "I will end 'don't ask, don't tell'"

US President Barack Obama has said he will end the ban on gay people serving openly in the military.

He said he would repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that allows gay people to serve in the military if they do not reveal their sexual orientation.

Mr Obama was speaking to America's largest gay group - the Human Rights Campaign - in Washington.

He had been criticised by some in the gay community for the lack of action on gay marriage and the military issue.

A big gay rights protest march is planned in Washington for Sunday.

Mr Obama was addressing thousands of gay and lesbian people at a fundraising dinner in the US capital.

He said the US had made progress on gay rights and would make more.

On the military issue he said the US could not afford to lose those people who had much needed skills for fighting.

"We should not be punishing patriotic Americans who have stepped forward to serve the country," Mr Obama said.

"We should be celebrating their willingness to step forward and show such courage."

Mr Obama did not give a timetable for repeal of the policy, passed by Congress in 1993, under which thousands of service members have been discharged.

The US president has repeatedly pledged to tackle issues important to the gay community.

But he has faced criticism for what many in the gay community see as lack of action on his promises.

Mr Obama asked the audience to trust his administration.

"I appreciate that many of you don't believe progress has come fast enough. Do not doubt the direction we are heading and the destination we will reach," he said.

One issue causing disquiet among the US gay community is the issue of gay marriage, the BBC's Rajesh Mirchandani in Los Angeles says.

Mr Obama has been criticised for not delivering on his promise to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act, which limits how local and federal bodies can recognise gay partnerships and determine benefits.

In his speech, Mr Obama did call on Congress to repeal the act and he also called for a law that would extend benefits to domestic partners.

In many places in America, gay people enjoy a high profile, economic and political clout, our correspondent says.


Finally? I'll cheer as soon as the change you guys voted for actually happens.

EDIT: fixed topic. wow, my brain must be broken.
Last edited by luketheduke on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:44 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obabam promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby joek » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:19 am UTC

If this eventually happens, well done Obama. We'll see whether it ever does though.

Seeing as my grounding in American law is virtually nil, what would Obama have to do to get DADT repealed?

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Re: Obabam promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby MikeBabaguh » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:27 am UTC

Fairly certain all he has to do is issue an Executive Order. Truman ended military segregation with one, for example.

Obama is the C-in-C of our armed forces. Anything he says, goes.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Nordic Einar » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:57 pm UTC

It certainly was a pretty, uplifting speech. But as honored as I am that Obama spoke at the HRC's dinner on our behalf, I (and the rest of us who were protesting outside the Gala) am tired of pretty speeches.

Hopefully in a few hours, when we're standing outside the capitol building thousands strong demanding our rights Obama will realize speeches won't cut it any longer.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Diadem » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:15 pm UTC

Didn't he already promise to end DODT during his campaign? I mean, it's cute that he is promising it again. But I'd rather he do it. All he needs is an executive order. He can do so tomorrow. He can do so this afternoon.

Promising to do something in the future that you can do right away... Somehow it sounds hollow.

[edit]
Sorry I meant DODT, not DOMA. My mistake.
Last edited by Diadem on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby BlackSails » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:39 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Didn't he already promise to end DOMA during his campaign? I mean, it's cute that he is promising it again. But I'd rather he do it. All he needs is an executive order. He can do so tomorrow. He can do so this afternoon.


How is he going to end a law with an executive order, particularly when the states will enforce it no matter what he says?

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby luketheduke » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

You're confusing DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) and "don't ask, don't tell." The former is a federal law and the latter is a (military) executive order.

One of those he can indeed remedy at any time.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Velict » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

We'll see what Obama does. Word are fine, but I prefer actions. Particularly when Don't Ask Don't Tell is an executive order.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Lord Aurora » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:41 pm UTC

Obama promises
Yeah, you lost me
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby netcrusher88 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:09 pm UTC

DADT was not an executive order. As per the Wikipedia page, it was created by an act of Congress in 1993 as 10 U.S.C. §654. Title 10 is the U.S.C. title governing the armed forces.

There was some discussion in the last thread about DADT about how the policy could be affected with an executive order, and basically the best that could be done is an order to suspend it as a stop-loss measure. Which could then be easily countermanded by an executive order from a later president, and would probably not outlast the current two wars because who needs stop-loss at peacetime?

Congress must repeal DADT. An executive order is neither powerful enough (which is a good thing) nor permanent enough to do so. Here's what you can do: tell your Representative to support HR 1283, the Military Readiness Enhancement Act - assuming it doesn't die in committee like the last two incarnations. I don't know why Obama hasn't come out in support of it.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:25 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:I don't know why Obama hasn't come out in support of it.

Hah HAH.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby i » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:35 pm UTC

...restrictions on women to remain.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby netcrusher88 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:42 pm UTC

i wrote:...restrictions on women to remain.

Funny thing, those are by and large not law, just sort of old internal military guidelines. The restriction on women on submarines is in the process of being lifted (as in, within weeks), don't know about the others.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Philwelch » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

I think's it'd be premature to just repeal "don't ask don't tell". We should have a transitionary phase first, called "don't talk about it too much, and try not to think about it".

Seriously though, social issues like gay rights and abortion don't really matter to the people in power, on either side. They give lip service to them and use them to mobilize their base, but actually doing something about it is something they avoid.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Velict » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:10 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:Seriously though, social issues like gay rights and abortion don't really matter to the people in power, on either side. They give lip service to them and use them to mobilize their base, but actually doing something about it is something they avoid.


The only reason this is the case is that it's not clear that the Democratic base even supports gay rights; Obama is afraid of losing votes if he advances gay rights. If he thought he'd win votes, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Philwelch » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:24 pm UTC

Of course he'll lose votes. Look at the California demographics for Obama and also Prop 8. Obama's black base and Obama's white liberal base diverge very strongly on the issue of gay rights. If he goes too far to appeal to either base he'll lose the other. Obama's main asset is his ability to motivate turnout through positive inspiration rather than "lesser-of-two-evils" demonization of his opponents. If he can't maintain his iconic status across both parts of his base, he'll have a harder struggle in 2012.

On the other hand, it's been nine months, and Obama's been focusing on health care reform and Afghanistan. He's accomplished nothing on either count, but that's his focus.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby BlackSails » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:40 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
i wrote:...restrictions on women to remain.

Funny thing, those are by and large not law, just sort of old internal military guidelines. The restriction on women on submarines is in the process of being lifted (as in, within weeks), don't know about the others.


Afaik, the main things women are barred from is submarines and certain special forces groups.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby netcrusher88 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:45 pm UTC

All special forces, and enlisted women (as opposed to commissioned officers) are banned from infantry, special forces, artillery, armor, and air defense artillery, though they can serve in Division level or higher staff positions. source, paragraph starting with "Today"
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby i » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:27 am UTC

The restriction on women on submarines is in the process of being lifted (as in, within weeks), don't know about the others.

Source pls.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:38 am UTC

Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus stated it during his interview on The Daily Show, Oct 6. The Navy has a writeup:

Navy.mil article wrote:WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said Oct. 6 women soon will serve on submarines, suggesting a reversal of the long-standing ban by the Navy.

Appearing on Comedy Central's "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart," Mabus signaled that the Navy is moving closer to allowing coed personnel on submarines.

"It will take a little while because you've got to interview people and you've got to be nuclear trained," he said, referring to prerequisite steps before a Sailor is assigned to a submarine.


So "within weeks" was probably incorrect. It sounds like they might be getting the administrative bits of preparing women for duty before changing the policy, I can't quite tell.

Interesting thing: Mabus also comments on DADT, stating that unlike restrictions on women it is "like gravity; it's a law". He dodges questions about it except to obliquely confirm that its revocation would not impair the armed forces, saying that the Navy and Marine Corps are ready to carry out any mission given to them by Congress including, of course, integration.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby General_Norris » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:17 am UTC

Let's hope he does it, I don't think he really cares a lot about this but well...As long as it works...

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Diadem » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:03 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Interesting thing: Mabus also comments on DADT, stating that unlike restrictions on women it is "like gravity; it's a law". He dodges questions about it except to obliquely confirm that its revocation would not impair the armed forces, saying that the Navy and Marine Corps are ready to carry out any mission given to them by Congress including, of course, integration.

I think you misunderstood what he meant there. John had asked him earlier if he could just change the rules regarding women on submarines, and he had answered that he could. Then John asked him about DADT and he made the above statement. I read that as meaning "No, because that rule is a law, so I'm not allowed to change that by myself". That's just a neutral and factual statement. His later statements that he thinks the Navy and Marine Corps are ready to carry out that missions seems to suggest that he's in favour of it.

But of course he's a politician. They can weasel out of anything.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby The EGE » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:47 pm UTC

About the women on submarines issues, a sidepoint:

One suggestion I heard was to have an all-female submarine. That way, it would eliminate the posibility of affairs going on between crewmates.

This was a pretty popular idea around here - one of the USN's major sub bases.

First, seriously, if you can get it on in a submarine cot, then props to you. I've been inside a sub once, and those cots are tiny - I doubt I could even fit on one alone. Plus, there's no privacy when you've got 100 people in a 300-foot steel mailing tube.

Second, it's absolutely implausible. What's the only way to get the captain, XO, etc the training they need to run the boat. That's right... put them on a submarine. With men.

Personally, I'm all for full male-female integration of the armed services, and the ending of DADT.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

The EGE wrote:it would eliminate the posibility of affairs going on between crewmates.

And, to add to your points, I've heard rumour of people who prefer to get it on with their own sex, though I don't have a source for that right now.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Lucrece » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:00 pm UTC

An executive order suspending the application and a Congress repeal are not mutually exclusive. The executive order would just prevent veterans like Victor Fehrenbach from being booted without benefits after 18 years of service and countless medals of honor, just short a few years from retirement with full pension.

It would prevent his case, where he didn't even "flaunt his homosexuality", but rather had to face charges of sexual assault based on a sour grapes relationship with another man, which was later debunked by military investigators, but he was still booted when he had to reveal their relationship to the police to clear his name.

DADT is an atrocious measure; one that the American public, including conservatives, supports its repeal. I expect ENDA, the Hate Crimes Bill, and DADT to be cleared by this administration or the next. The issue is whether Obama did anything to help, and he cannot do anything except an executive order suspending DADT; ENDA, DOMA, Hate Crimes are only affected by the Legislature, nothing he has power over.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby BlackSails » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:52 pm UTC

The EGE wrote:Personally, I'm all for full male-female integration of the armed services, and the ending of DADT.


As am I, assuming there are no quotas or different requirements for men and women. If a job requires you to be able to carry a 200 pound man for 10 miles (or whatever the requirement is), it should be the same for everyone.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Bassoon » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:59 am UTC

I'm glad to see it going away, but I don't think it'll do much to end homophobia in the military, especially if soldiers who commit hate crimes against LGBT soldiers still get a mere slap on the wrist for it.

Also, it really bugged me how this article read like a third-grader summarizing a report done by someone else. Am I the only one who go that impression?

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby The EGE » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:43 am UTC

Bassoon wrote:Also, it really bugged me how this article read like a third-grader summarizing a report done by someone else. Am I the only one who go that impression?


You are very right - it appears that the native language of the writer was not English.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Vaniver » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:15 pm UTC

The EGE wrote:About the women on submarines issues, a sidepoint:

One suggestion I heard was to have an all-female submarine. That way, it would eliminate the posibility of affairs going on between crewmates.

This was a pretty popular idea around here - one of the USN's major sub bases.

First, seriously, if you can get it on in a submarine cot, then props to you. I've been inside a sub once, and those cots are tiny - I doubt I could even fit on one alone. Plus, there's no privacy when you've got 100 people in a 300-foot steel mailing tube.

Second, it's absolutely implausible. What's the only way to get the captain, XO, etc the training they need to run the boat. That's right... put them on a submarine. With men.

Personally, I'm all for full male-female integration of the armed services, and the ending of DADT.
They're either planning or have already deployed an all-female submarine.

As for Obama's promises, call me when it's not all talk.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Will » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:22 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:As for Obama's promises, call me when it's not all talk.

For once I agree with vaniver. Obama promised to end DOMA and DADT when he was running for president. So far he's done exactly dick, and now he's talking about it again. I hope he actually does get his act together and do it, but I'm not keeping my hopes up until I see him actually *do* something.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Iv » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:04 pm UTC

Bassoon wrote:I'm glad to see it going away, but I don't think it'll do much to end homophobia in the military, especially if soldiers who commit hate crimes against LGBT soldiers still get a mere slap on the wrist for it.

Well, at least it will remove the legitimacy to harass them because they legally can't be in the military. It won't make the homo-phobics suddenly like gays, but it will remove them some of their perceived legitimacy to chase them. It will also have the same effect it had in the civilian life : people will see that two men holding their hands is nothing so dangerous and heinous as they thought, that usually does a lot to help acceptance.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby MrGee » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:04 pm UTC

Will wrote:
Vaniver wrote:As for Obama's promises, call me when it's not all talk.

For once I agree with vaniver. Obama promised to end DOMA and DADT when he was running for president. So far he's done exactly dick, and now he's talking about it again. I hope he actually does get his act together and do it, but I'm not keeping my hopes up until I see him actually *do* something.


My new theory about Obama is that he's building up rage points and saving them for year 4, right before re-election. Then he's going to pull off a critical [Whirlwind] of legislation, followed by spamming [Execute] on all his political opponents.

The alternative of course is that he bought his account on eBay and we're all fucked, so let's not think about that.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Iv » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:51 am UTC

MrGee wrote:My new theory about Obama is that he's building up rage points and saving them for year 4, right before re-election. Then he's going to pull off a critical [Whirlwind] of legislation, followed by spamming [Execute] on all his political opponents.

Quite possible and sensible. Though morally questionnable, that would be democracy at work : the job gets done in the end.

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Diadem » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:34 pm UTC

MrGee wrote:
Will wrote:
Vaniver wrote:As for Obama's promises, call me when it's not all talk.

For once I agree with vaniver. Obama promised to end DOMA and DADT when he was running for president. So far he's done exactly dick, and now he's talking about it again. I hope he actually does get his act together and do it, but I'm not keeping my hopes up until I see him actually *do* something.


My new theory about Obama is that he's building up rage points and saving them for year 4, right before re-election. Then he's going to pull off a critical [Whirlwind] of legislation, followed by spamming [Execute] on all his political opponents.

The alternative of course is that he bought his account on eBay and we're all fucked, so let's not think about that.

Well let's put it like this: His dps sucks, but he sure draws a lot of aggro. So Obama is a tank. But then, who is doing the dps?
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby The Reaper » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:43 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
MrGee wrote:
Will wrote:
Vaniver wrote:As for Obama's promises, call me when it's not all talk.

For once I agree with vaniver. Obama promised to end DOMA and DADT when he was running for president. So far he's done exactly dick, and now he's talking about it again. I hope he actually does get his act together and do it, but I'm not keeping my hopes up until I see him actually *do* something.


My new theory about Obama is that he's building up rage points and saving them for year 4, right before re-election. Then he's going to pull off a critical [Whirlwind] of legislation, followed by spamming [Execute] on all his political opponents.

The alternative of course is that he bought his account on eBay and we're all fucked, so let's not think about that.

Well let's put it like this: His dps sucks, but he sure draws a lot of aggro. So Obama is a tank. But then, who is doing the dps?

Bush?

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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:50 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Diadem wrote:But then, who is doing the dps?

Bush?

Well, there's no denying he did plenty of damage.
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Diadem » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:07 pm UTC

So now all we need is a healer.

Reflecting upon the state of the world today, that joke is actually not at all that funny. Nor is it a joke...
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

The Reaper
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby The Reaper » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:09 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So now all we need is a healer.

Reflecting upon the state of the world today, that joke is actually not at all that funny. Nor is it a joke...

So Obama, Bush, and Christ's second coming are going to go on raids in the middle east and asia to gain XP and gold?

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Aikanaro
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:17 pm UTC

Al Franken?
Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

Love, Aikanaro.

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Woxor
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Re: Obama promises end of "don't ask don't tell", also DOMA

Postby Woxor » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:10 pm UTC

Bush = Leeroy Jenkins


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