Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

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Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Sindayven » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:58 am UTC

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/11/AR2009111116943.html?hpid=topnews

Spoiler:
The Catholic Archdiocese of Washington said Wednesday that it will be unable to continue the social service programs it runs for the District if the city doesn't change a proposed same-sex marriage law, a threat that could affect tens of thousands of people the church helps with adoption, homelessness and health care.

Under the bill, headed for a D.C. Council vote next month, religious organizations would not be required to perform or make space available for same-sex weddings. But they would have to obey city laws prohibiting discrimination against gay men and lesbians.

Fearful that they could be forced, among other things, to extend employee benefits to same-sex married couples, church officials said they would have no choice but to abandon their contracts with the city.

"If the city requires this, we can't do it," Susan Gibbs, spokeswoman for the archdiocese, said Wednesday. "The city is saying in order to provide social services, you need to be secular. For us, that's really a problem."

...

That's pretty low. Jesus would be appalled.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby tishikawa » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:01 am UTC

Yea, sick fucking catholics, building all those hospitals and schools.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:09 am UTC

Fearful that they could be forced, among other things, to extend employee benefits to same-sex married couples

Yeah, cause that would be real awful. Cry me a fucking river.

I could see them getting up in arms if they were required to provide space or perform same-sex weddings - that's fair, even if I think they should do that. But being upset because they're not allowed to discriminate is like wearing a big "bigot" sign. With bright, flashing lights.

Also - my understanding is that the city is paying them to provide these services. If so, aren't they already secular in nature? And if the contract is with the city, doesn't the city have to right to, you know, make laws affecting the city?
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:16 am UTC

I agree the church is being jerks, but you know freedom and all that stuff that permits same sex marriage means freedom to be a dick.

Also - my understanding is that the city is paying them to provide these services. If so, aren't they already secular in nature? And if the contract is with the city, doesn't the city have to right to, you know, make laws affecting the city?


Indeed, but that doesn't mean the church is required to renew the contract(of course they might be in for x more years)
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:56 am UTC

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, hit them. [...] Hate your enemies." - Matthew 5:39-44... no wait, that's not quite how it went, I think.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:32 am UTC

Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby tishikawa » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:43 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.


How many atheist charity hospitals are there in your city?

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Silas » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:49 am UTC

Arancaytar wrote:"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, hit them. [...] Hate your enemies." - Matthew 5:39-44... no wait, that's not quite how it went, I think.

And, "if anyone forces you to go one mile, complain that you're forbidden by religious law from complying" (Matthew 5:41)
---

But the way I read that article doesn't sound like the issue is government-funded, church-run programs. It's church programs that are coming under the purview of this new employment law, which doesn't leave an exemption for religious charities. It's not that the District is paying the salary of the pharmacist at St. Mary's (hospital), it's that he works in the District, and the terms of his employment are under their jurisdiction.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:53 am UTC

tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.


How many atheist charity hospitals are there in your city?

Well, given that I've met just about every atheist in this town, 0. And for charity hospitals, 0. Your other problem here is that atheists haven't formed mutli-billion dollar organizations that are capable of endowing such establishments. Furthering that, there are secular charity hospitals. The fact of the matter is, they're threating to withdraw their support from the poor because a city wants to give gay people the right to marry. Not only does gay marriage have nothing to do with helping the poor, threatening to kick people to the curb like this just because a city won't uphold your bigotry is not only disgraceful, it's also childish. Beyond that, they're trying to practice a pseudo-theocracy by blackmail.

So excuse me while I trash on a terrible organization that is causing a fuck ton of harm in this world. Or how many times has the church taught safe sex practices in Africa and advocated the use of condoms? Oh right. Thank you, have a nice day.

Also, what part of Catholic Cannon Law prevents them from extending benefits to same-sex partners? I've never actually heard that such a rule actually exists. So unless he's going to go and provide the actual proof that the Church is actually forbidden from doing so by their own rules, I'm working on the assumption that he's operating under his own bigoted bias and quite full of shit.

Either way, the church can take their theocratic ambitions and shove the fuck off.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Xeio » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:02 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Either way, the church can take their theocratic ambitions and shove the fuck off.
I'd like to quote this, because it's worthy of quoting, and sums up my views pretty nicely.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby tishikawa » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:21 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.


How many atheist charity hospitals are there in your city?

Well, given that I've met just about every atheist in this town, 0. And for charity hospitals, 0. Your other problem here is that atheists haven't formed mutli-billion dollar organizations that are capable of endowing such establishments. Furthering that, there are secular charity hospitals. The fact of the matter is, they're threating to withdraw their support from the poor because a city wants to give gay people the right to marry. Not only does gay marriage have nothing to do with helping the poor, threatening to kick people to the curb like this just because a city won't uphold your bigotry is not only disgraceful, it's also childish. Beyond that, they're trying to practice a pseudo-theocracy by blackmail.


So it's their responsibility to take care of the poor? And what have you done personally to take care of the poor? How many DC homeless will you welcome into your home?

If anything, since most blacks (and thus most people in DC) are against gay marriage, maybe the gays should back off for a while? Why must they provoke an institution that offers vital services for free?

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Sharlos » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:30 am UTC

tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.


How many atheist charity hospitals are there in your city?

Well, given that I've met just about every atheist in this town, 0. And for charity hospitals, 0. Your other problem here is that atheists haven't formed mutli-billion dollar organizations that are capable of endowing such establishments. Furthering that, there are secular charity hospitals. The fact of the matter is, they're threating to withdraw their support from the poor because a city wants to give gay people the right to marry. Not only does gay marriage have nothing to do with helping the poor, threatening to kick people to the curb like this just because a city won't uphold your bigotry is not only disgraceful, it's also childish. Beyond that, they're trying to practice a pseudo-theocracy by blackmail.


So it's their responsibility to take care of the poor? And what have you done personally to take care of the poor? How many DC homeless will you welcome into your home?

If anything, since most blacks (and thus most people in DC) are against gay marriage, maybe the gays should back off for a while? Why must they provoke an institution that offers vital services for free?

Why must people surrender their right to equal treatment under the law because a church is trying to blackmail the government?

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby tishikawa » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:47 am UTC

Sharlos wrote:
So it's their responsibility to take care of the poor? And what have you done personally to take care of the poor? How many DC homeless will you welcome into your home?

If anything, since most blacks (and thus most people in DC) are against gay marriage, maybe the gays should back off for a while? Why must they provoke an institution that offers vital services for free?

Why must people surrender their right to equal treatment under the law because a church is trying to blackmail the government?[/quote]

Surrender? I said "back off for a while". Its a strategical issue. The gay marriage people who failed in CA in 2008 aren't going to even try 2010, because strategically they're better off trying in 2012 when they can build a stronger base. By sticking to a low-IQ, "I want everything now and I don't care how many people get thrown into the street" approach, you are hurting your long term chances.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:54 am UTC

tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
tishikawa wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.


How many atheist charity hospitals are there in your city?

Well, given that I've met just about every atheist in this town, 0. And for charity hospitals, 0. Your other problem here is that atheists haven't formed mutli-billion dollar organizations that are capable of endowing such establishments. Furthering that, there are secular charity hospitals. The fact of the matter is, they're threating to withdraw their support from the poor because a city wants to give gay people the right to marry. Not only does gay marriage have nothing to do with helping the poor, threatening to kick people to the curb like this just because a city won't uphold your bigotry is not only disgraceful, it's also childish. Beyond that, they're trying to practice a pseudo-theocracy by blackmail.


So it's their responsibility to take care of the poor? And what have you done personally to take care of the poor? How many DC homeless will you welcome into your home?

If anything, since most blacks (and thus most people in DC) are against gay marriage, maybe the gays should back off for a while? Why must they provoke an institution that offers vital services for free?

Well, I'm an ardent Critical Marxist (which is not the same as Stalinism, Maoism, or just about every other notion you have of what it actually means. In fact, you'd have better luck reading a Kim Stanley Robinson novel in this regard) so I do a lot of consciousness raising on the plight of the poor as well as advocate social justice.

Plus, seeing as the church is taking taxpayer money to do this, your little analogy is kind of flawed. Plus, I think you're comprehending the difference between a college student with debt and a billion dollar+ organization with their own nation state. Are you seeing the difference in ability to make a noticeable difference and operate social programs here?

Really, here's how your argument should be dealt with.

I see you're defending the Catholic Church, a horrid organization that does very little for the world and makes the few good services they choose to provide conditional to accepting bigoted dogma, would you like to piss off? Colonialism of any form isn't cool, m'kay? And that's really what their actions shake down to here. Post-Modern colonialism. And I think I just found myself another nice paper topic.

Also: Should the blacks and women backed off and laid low for awhile while religious institutions used scripture to subjugate them and/or consider them biologically inferior? Also, Tish, you notice how the Catholic Church is the one threatening to throw people in the streets and not the gays? Yeah, who exactly do you think the "liberal, anti-catholic, Jewish conspiracy cabal" media is going to make look like the bad guys here? Furthermore, civil rights shouldn't even be put up to the vote to start with. Tyranny isn't cool, m'kay?

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby tishikawa » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:07 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Well, I'm an ardent Critical Marxist (which is not the same as Stalinism, Maoism, or just about every other notion you have of what it actually means. In fact, you'd have better luck reading a Kim Stanley Robinson novel in this regard) so I do a lot of consciousness raising on the plight of the poor as well as advocate social justice.

And I'm a feral bobcat with night vision goggles and nunchuks, trained in the art of ninjitsu (which is not the same as ninja kittens, lolcats, or ceiling cats, or just about every other notion you have of what it actually means. In fact, you'd have better luck reading Mike Litoris in this regard) so do a lot of conciousness raising the plight of the poor as well as advocate social justice.

Jahoclave wrote:Plus, seeing as the church is taking taxpayer money to do this, your little analogy is kind of flawed. Plus, I think you're comprehending the difference between a college student with debt and a billion dollar+ organization with their own nation state. Are you seeing the difference in ability to make a noticeable difference and operate social programs here?

You dodge my question. How many of the 68000 people currently under care of the catholics in DC will you take into your home?


Jahoclave wrote:I see you're defending the Catholic Church, a horrid organization that does very little for the world and makes the few good services they choose to provide conditional to accepting bigoted dogma, would you like to piss off? Colonialism of any form isn't cool, m'kay? And that's really what their actions shake down to here. Post-Modern colonialism. And I think I just found myself another nice paper topic.

All western countries are guilty of crimes against humanities at one point or another in their histories. Should none of those countries offer social services either?

Jahoclave wrote: Also: Should the blacks and women backed off and laid low for awhile while religious institutions used scripture to subjugate them and/or consider them biologically inferior?

No, but the difference between the Civil rights movement and the gay "rights" movement is that the former had strategic leadership. They didn't wake up one day and decide to march on DC, every act of civil disobedience was thought out.

Also, Tish, you notice how the Catholic Church is the one threatening to throw people in the streets and not the gays?

Catholics had absolutely no obligation to take care of 68,000 in DC in the first place. It's their choice and right to decide if they want to leave.

Yeah, who exactly do you think the "liberal, anti-catholic, Jewish conspiracy cabal" media is going to make look like the bad guys here?
When did I say I that the media was "liberal, anti-catholic, Jewish conspiracy cabal"? Can you not argue your point without putting words in people's mouth? And yes, actually, I think the media will encourage anti-gay marriage activists to come out in greater numbers, thereby setting back the movement.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby dedalus » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:23 am UTC

tishikawa, Jesus himself preached that when one does generous works and gives to charity, 'the left hand should not know what the right hand is doing'.

The church is saying that they will withdraw their charitable services unless someone continues to persecute a minority? Then that stops being a charity. And it's morally wrong. And because it's morally wrong, your question of 'what will you do with the poor that we provide for' is effectively you saying 'we're not fucking these guys over because we're having a hissy fit, you are'. You're the ones having a hissy fit, so you're the ones that are causing this to happen. And because you're having a hissy fit, and because you're doing something wrong, all your claims to doing charity making you morally superior go out the window on this issue.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Grop » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:15 am UTC

Yeah, this is so great, helping the poor for political gain.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Phen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:44 am UTC

tishikawa wrote:No, but the difference between the Civil rights movement and the gay "rights" movement is that the former had strategic leadership.

Yes, those silly gay "people" who want "rights." I know, rite?
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:46 am UTC

dedalus wrote:tishikawa, Jesus himself preached that when one does generous works and gives to charity, 'the left hand should not know what the right hand is doing'.

Citation, please? And that's not meant to be snippy, just that my knowledge of scripture is far from perfect, and I would actually find that line rather comforting, as depending on exactly what it means, it may help to affirm some suspicions and views I've had.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:42 pm UTC

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/225650.html

Matthew 6:3, though in context it reinforces the statement that one should not credit themselves with giving to charity. Detached from context, the phrase's meaning has changed to mean what dedalus said. A better Biblical example might be the parable of the good Samaritan, a tale which has an awful lot going on but is in large part about discrimination and how it is, you know, wrong and misguided.

/me meditates on the uses of a religious education
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:53 pm UTC

Ah, many thanks.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:03 pm UTC

This is the sort of thing the Catholic church of course has the (legal, if not moral) right to do, just like the country as a whole can attach strings to the foreign aid it gives. But both of them can of course be huge fucking dicks about it, such as when they say, in effect, "You want to allow gays to marry? Then we're taking our charities and going the fuck home!"

It proves, among other things, that the Church is not into providing charity for charity's sake, at least not any more. They're using it as a damn political tool, which is as abhorrent as it is unsurprising.

tishikawa wrote:How many of the 68000 people currently under care of the catholics in DC will you take into your home?

Seeing as you're jizzing all over your pants about the Catholic church, I assume you're also against abortion. So let me ask a similar question in the hopes that you might see how stupid this one is: How many of the 1.2 million abortions that happen every year would you be willing to adopt into your home if we changed the laws so that they were required to be born? Less than one thousandth of one percent?

tishikawa wrote:All western countries are guilty of crimes against humanities at one point or another in their histories. Should none of those countries offer social services either?

None of *any* countries should be offering social services contingent on whether you suck their homophobic cock.

tishikawa wrote:Catholics had absolutely no obligation to take care of 68,000 in DC in the first place. It's their choice and right to decide if they want to leave.

No, inasmuch as no one is obligated not to engage in political blackmail in order to promote homophobia, they are not obligated to do anything. But like I said at the beginning of the post, they prove themselves to the world to be giving charity for political reasons now, if they threaten to make their help contingent on whether the city is sufficiently homophobic for their taste.

tishikawa wrote:the gay "rights" movement

But whatever. Foe'd.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby kiklion » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:18 pm UTC

Would this be different if Washington legalized slavery and protected slave owners from discrimination? Pretty sure some companies with contracts with the government would feel forced to abandon those contracts due to the law not agreeing with their morality.

What I am trying to get at here is that there is nothing wrong with any organization withdrawing their support of another, if the second organization starts practices that the first find immoral.

What seems to be the problem in the first place was that the state was selling contracts to the church. Though my understanding of the contracts may be wrong, what is in my head would be similar to the government selling contracts for one million pencils. The group that is tax exempt would have a significant upper hand over any group that needed to pay taxes and make a profit for their shareholders.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby The Reaper » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:34 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:This is the sort of thing the Catholic church of course has the (legal, if not moral) right to do, just like the country as a whole can attach strings to the foreign aid it gives. But both of them can of course be huge fucking dicks about it, such as when they say, in effect, "You want to allow gays to marry? Then we're taking our charities and going the fuck home!"
You don't want to provide charities? That means you're no longer a charity organization?




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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:37 pm UTC

Pretty much. If they want to be a political group, they can start paying taxes like the rest of them.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:45 pm UTC

10 to 1 this will play out exactly the same way as the Catholic charity that was doing adoption services in Boston (I think I got the city right):
  1. Government approves gay marriage rights
  2. Catholic charity is not allowed to discriminate against gay couples as long as they receive government money
  3. Rather than conform to government guidelines as required by public funds or continue to discriminate while subsisting on solely private funds (as a Mormon adoption charity continued to in Boston), the Catholic charity up and leaves
  4. Anti-rights propaganda machine spins story as gay marriage forcing charities to close up shop, ignoring the fact that the change was simply that discrimination would no longer be tolerated by government contracts
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:49 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.



Yea.. I don't get it. Are you saying you don't think the Catholic Church does a lot of charity work?
In California they are #1 for helping illegal immigrants.

I am agnostic and think religion is foolish, but I can see that the Catholic church does a lot of good in terms of helping the less fortunate.

Maybe I read it differently, but they seem to oppose the idea that they would have to give employees same sex benefits and they have a religious objection to it. Since they don't want to be forced into that position they would withdraw.

Seems like par for the course and religions are entitled to their superstitions and magic books as long as they don't commit crimes. I dont' see this as a crime but just an entity living up to its own messed up, but very typical, code.


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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby psyck0 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:56 pm UTC

In America, as of 1999, 13% of all hospitals were religious (totaling 18% of all hospital beds); that's 604 out of 4,573 hospitals. [6] Despite the presence of organized religion in America, the Church has managed to scrape together only a few hospitals. Of these 604 hospitals many are a product of mergers with public, non-sectarian hospitals. Not all of these 604 hospitals are Catholic; many are Baptist, Methodist, Shriner (Masonic), Jewish, etc.

Despite the religious label, these so-called religious hospitals are more public than public hospitals. Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent.

Source: http://www.atheists.org/The_Question_of_Atheists_Hospitals

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:59 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Dear Catholic Church, I believe this is your song. Fuck the Poor. Just ignore all the parts in there about actually donating; after all, you need a new cathedral or fifty and the Pope needs a fancy new hat.



Yea.. I don't get it. Are you saying you don't think the Catholic Church does a lot of charity work?
In California they are #1 for helping illegal immigrants.


He's saying that they're perfectly willing to abandon all those poor folks they profess to care about just because they want to throw a temper tantrum about gays being icky.

Therefore, they must not have cared too much about those poor folks.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Cynical Idealist » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:03 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/225650.html

Matthew 6:3, though in context it reinforces the statement that one should not credit themselves with giving to charity. Detached from context, the phrase's meaning has changed to mean what dedalus said. A better Biblical example might be the parable of the good Samaritan, a tale which has an awful lot going on but is in large part about discrimination and how it is, you know, wrong and misguided.

/me meditates on the uses of a religious education

Context, for slightly lazy people.
I had a Catholic education through 8th grade, then a Jesuit education through high school. Nobody at either of those schools would approve of this bullshit, and actually I think I'll drop by my high school and talk to some of the Jesuits about this when I get a chance.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:34 pm UTC

Please read the entire article. It explains the situation better than the OP's clip.

First, the Catholic Church should be allowed to extend adoption services to whomever they please. However, they may not be allowed to do so while taking public funding. These issues should not be related to, say, soup kitchens. It's possible, though, that refusal to comply with actions that would legitimize gay marriage, such as adoption, may result in the government cutting funding for soup kitchens.

If this is the case, it's the Catholic Church's duty to inform the public that they'll continue doing what they've always done, and that this may result in a reduction in charity. The article portrays them as going a step farther and wielding their charity as a weapon. This, if it really is happening that way, is pretty dickish.
Jahoclave wrote:I see you're defending the Catholic Church, a horrid organization that does very little for the world
You... don't get out much, do you? I, for one, wish that we could close up our free clinic and food pantry. The weird thing is, people keep showing up. Every day.

This is a serious issue that needs to be resolved before people start dying.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/225650.html

Matthew 6:3, though in context it reinforces the statement that one should not credit themselves with giving to charity. Detached from context, the phrase's meaning has changed to mean what dedalus said. A better Biblical example might be the parable of the good Samaritan, a tale which has an awful lot going on but is in large part about discrimination and how it is, you know, wrong and misguided.

/me meditates on the uses of a religious education

Context, for slightly lazy people.
I had a Catholic education through 8th grade, then a Jesuit education through high school. Nobody at either of those schools would approve of this bullshit, and actually I think I'll drop by my high school and talk to some of the Jesuits about this when I get a chance.

Thank you for the further clarity. I remember that verse now, and sadly, I think it is indeed just a bit of hyperbole about how you should be secretive as all hell about doing good works. Too bad, if anyone finds a verse more in line with what Daedalus implies, please let me know!
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding

What? 36% + 12% doesn't leave 44%...
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby psyck0 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:05 pm UTC

I didn't write it. That was a quote.

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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:16 pm UTC

Yeah, but if the numbers you decide to quote seem to be missing 6% somewhere, I'd suggest maybe looking for clearer (or more accurate) numbers to support your point...
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Dauric » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:23 pm UTC

The problem with population statistic numbers like those is that you get 1 or 2 percentages taken up in categories like "Other" or "Non Reporting" and then you lose fractions of percentages to rounding. Most news org.s don't report quantities under double-digit percentages because they are complex mish-mashes of various categories and statistical error margins that are too lengthy to explain in their article.
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Kizyr » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

tishikawa wrote:If anything, since most blacks (and thus most people in DC) are against gay marriage, maybe the gays should back off for a while? Why must they provoke an institution that offers vital services for free?

Coming back to this one... First, demographics-wise, Blacks are over 1/3rd of the District, but not over half (incidentally, I made this same mistake last week and was corrected after we looked up some demographics stats for the city). Second, regardless of demographics, it's not a fair assessment to say that most of the city is against gay marriage--in fact, I don't even think it's an accurate assessment.

If I can think of where to get some results to shed light on that, I'll make another response (referenda, polls, etc.). But I don't think there is one that'd indicate over half the district opposes it.

Third, and most importantly, issues that pertain to human rights aren't things you can put up to a vote. It wouldn't even matter if most people were against extending rights to same-sex marriages; if the majority of an area is perfectly fine with discriminating against a particular group, that in no way justifies it. And any good political system should incorporate a way to mitigate against that sort of pressure. KF
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:46 pm UTC

This blog discusses and links to some other articles about the fact that the majority of black clergy in DC supports gay marriage. And I suspect that lay members of those congregations are at least as supportive (considering that even in more conservative black churches, there are probably a fair minority of members who are rather more progressive than their pastors, who continue going to the church for social reasons).

So it would be nice if tishikawa stopped spouting racist nonsense in addition to homophobic nonsense. (Well, it would be nice if tishikawa stopped spouting anything, but that may be too much to hope for...)
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Kizyr » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:49 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:This blog discusses and links to some other articles about the fact that the majority of black clergy in DC supports gay marriage. So it would be nice if tishikawa stopped spouting racist nonsense in addition to homophobic nonsense. (Well, it would be nice if tishikawa stopped spouting anything, but that may be too much to hope for...)

Man, I knew I had a fourth point somewhere. Just couldn't remember it.

So, yeah, fourth, that initial statement implied that all or nearly all Blacks categorically oppose same-sex marriage. KF
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Re: Church in Washington threatens to cut aid over gay marriage

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Despite the religious label, these so-called religious hospitals are more public than public hospitals. Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent.


Um these numbers are meaningless, and you might argue they are pro-catholic hospitals.

Medicare is an automatic service provided to those over 65. The fact Catholic hospitals receive a lot of medicare money, just means they serve a lot of old people.
So these numbers could just as easily mean that Religious hospitals are less likely to turn away old people, because they are higher risk patients.

Medicaid is an automatic service provided to the poor. So it just means that 12% of Religious hospitals patients are so poor as to qualify for it.

As for county dispersments, it is most likely a state or local automatic payment for the poor.

You see poor people don't have medical insurance, so the government is subsidizing them. The fact that lots of them choose to go to Religious hospitals could easily mean that for-profit hospitals are turning them away.

As far as the rest of the numbers, did anyone believe that these hospitals were paid for with just donations?
The initial cost of building these is paid for by the church, but after that they are self sufficient. The fact that they still receive some charitable donations just demonstrates that they go above and beyond building the facility with religious funds in the first place.

If you want to find something to criticize Catholics over... this isn't it. They provide a nessesary service, at no profit to themselves, for those most in need.

For those who didn't catch on: If you start a private for profit ice-cream shop and a welfare recipient comes in and buys icecream using funds from their welfare check, does that make you a public, tax payer subsidized business? Obviously the answer is no.

Belial wrote:He's saying that they're perfectly willing to abandon all those poor folks they profess to care about just because they want to throw a temper tantrum about gays being icky.

Therefore, they must not have cared too much about those poor folks.


Regardless of how much I abhor their stance on gay issues, they dont' see it as bigoted.

If you decided to go to Saudi Arabia to help allievate the suffering of the poor, and the government told you "you need to tell us if you encounter any single females so we can behead them"... and you decided to pack up shop does it mean you dont' care about the poor very much?

Hence I think you offered a false conclusion.



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