Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Indon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:43 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:- Losing their biggest customer
- They have 987 people, which puts them in military might somewhere above Luxembourg but below the Leeds United fanclub.


Blackwater has more than one contract.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zauderer » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

Actually, censorship is still there. When you use google.cn to search for "tiananmen square", you still get the "some search results are not shown" message. Interestingly, when I mistyped it as "tianamen square", it asked me if I meant "tiananmen square" and gave me the English Wikipedia articles for the Tiananmen Square and the Tiananmen Square protests as the first two results.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

Indon wrote:Blackwater has more than one contract.

And England is more than one football club.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:54 pm UTC

Indon wrote:
Zamfir wrote:- Losing their biggest customer
- They have 987 people, which puts them in military might somewhere above Luxembourg but below the Leeds United fanclub.


Blackwater has more than one contract.

You say that as if it's an insightful and relevant statement.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:56 pm UTC

Blackwater is well armed enough to take on a large city's police force. They are not large or well armed enough to take on the national guard of even a state like Rhode Island.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:10 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Blackwater is well armed enough to take on a large city's police force. They are not large or well armed enough to take on the national guard of even a state like Rhode Island.

So if Blackwater decided to, and could convince its soldiers to, they could conquer a city and hold it hostage. That's Osama bin Laden's wet dream running around taking money from the United States government!
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby hideki101 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:45 pm UTC

Why are we discussing Blackwater in a Google thread? It seems just a little off topic.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:09 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Blackwater is well armed enough to take on a large city's police force. They are not large or well armed enough to take on the national guard of even a state like Rhode Island.

So if Blackwater decided to, and could convince its soldiers to, they could conquer a city and hold it hostage. That's Osama bin Laden's wet dream running around taking money from the United States government!


No, because the people of the united states keep and bear arms.

Also, national guard.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:11 am UTC

hideki101 wrote:Why are we discussing Blackwater in a Google thread? It seems just a little off topic.
Oh, it is. But someone made the comment about corporations having armies in the context of cyberwar, and so here we are, three pages later.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Diadem » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:45 am UTC

Yeah. I seem to be very good at derailing threads.

But google.. well what else can be said about them. If I understood correctly China is now censoring them?
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Maduyn » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:53 am UTC

Spoiler:
FUCK CHINA



That is all....



Move along...
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby jakovasaur » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:05 am UTC

Maduyn wrote:
Spoiler:
FUCK CHINA



That is all....



Move along...

I'd rather us be Chinese than a bunch of unethical dick-shooters.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby The Reaper » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:16 am UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Maduyn wrote:
Spoiler:
FUCK CHINA



That is all....



Move along...

I'd rather us be Chinese than a bunch of unethical dick-shooters.

Would that be google or blackwater? either way, I'd rather be them than be a chinese citizen in the non-ruling class.. :\

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby BlackSails » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:31 am UTC

The other reason is that the Chinese government engaged in attacks on google.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:40 am UTC

kaileyyoung wrote:
Marquee Moon wrote:It's great that we all feel warm and fuzzy inside because Google has stopped dealing with the evil Chinese government, but what's more important is the welfare of the Chinese citizenry. As scikidus said, which is better for the Chinese people: censored Google, or no Google at all? This is a very complicated situation and ideas like "don't be evil" or "don't cooperate with evil people" are, I think, too simplistic. Personally I think they should Google.cn up and running, but I'm sure the people at Google doing this review thingy are much smarter than me.



Why you say"eveil chinese"? and do you really think it's good for google to quit from chinese? I agree that it's a loss foe google , why g wanto do that ? one reason is it did not do well as BaiDu in chinese!!!

Hello Chinese astroturfer! Would you like to go away, or shall I take to ridiculing you through racist stereotypes? You see, this is the internet, and when someone with a low post count shows up arguing that a nation we've decided to think of as EVIL isn't actually EVIL, classifying them as an astroturfer and jumping into attack mode is just what we do!

I'm rather happy to be on the attacking side for once.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:47 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:I'm rather happy to be on the attacking side for once.
Don't let it get to your head.

I am curious, though, what the Chinese reaction to this is- whether they'll mostly replace it with Baidu, or if it will begin other incidents. I don't think it likely that a revolt would start over not being able to use Gmail, but who knows?
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby jakovasaur » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:49 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
Maduyn wrote:
Spoiler:
FUCK CHINA



That is all....



Move along...

I'd rather us be Chinese than a bunch of unethical dick-shooters.

Would that be google or blackwater? either way, I'd rather be them than be a chinese citizen in the non-ruling class.. :\

The unethical dick-shooter is none other than Butters Stotch aka Professor Chaos.

Edit: Thank you, aleflamedyud, for restoring my faith.
Last edited by jakovasaur on Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:00 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:59 am UTC

It's OK Jakovasaur. I got the joke.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Maduyn » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:36 am UTC

kaileyyoung wrote:
Marquee Moon wrote:It's great that we all feel warm and fuzzy inside because Google has stopped dealing with the evil Chinese government, but what's more important is the welfare of the Chinese citizenry. As scikidus said, which is better for the Chinese people: censored Google, or no Google at all? This is a very complicated situation and ideas like "don't be evil" or "don't cooperate with evil people" are, I think, too simplistic. Personally I think they should Google.cn up and running, but I'm sure the people at Google doing this review thingy are much smarter than me.



Why you say"eveil chinese"? and do you really think it's good for google to quit from chinese? I agree that it's a loss foe google , why g wanto do that ? one reason is it did not do well as BaiDu in chinese!!!


Allow me to translate.

Why do you say "evil Chinese"? Do you really think It's good for Google to leave China? I think it is a loss for Google. Why would Google want to do that? One reason i think is that they weren't doing as well as BaiDu in China.


Yeah...
Fixed or some such thing
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby MrGee » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am UTC

I would be curious to know why Google has so little market share in China when it is The Search Engine around here. Perhaps it's not as well supported as AmeriGoogle--I feel like Google has been spreading themselves mighty thin lately.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zamfir » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:44 am UTC

Maduyn wrote:Allow me to translate.

Why do you say "evil Chinese"? Do you really think It's good for Google to leave China? I think it is a loss for Google. Why would Google want to do that? One reason i think is that they weren't doing as well as BaiDu in China.

Yeah...
Fixed or some such thing

To be honest, I thought the original message was understandable enough. I don't think I could write a Chinese text that well.

If Kaileyyoung is an astroturfer, he knows more about Chinese censoring than any of us. He might be interesting to talk to.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:32 pm UTC

MrGee wrote:I would be curious to know why Google has so little market share in China when it is The Search Engine around here. Perhaps it's not as well supported as AmeriGoogle--I feel like Google has been spreading themselves mighty thin lately.


It's true that google.cn would often come up with ameri-centric results, like if I searched for papajohns pizza I would get the American site asking me my state, instead of the Chinese site where I can get the locations in china. For things like that even I would use Baidu. Also, Baidu lets you search for pirated movies and mp3 far easier. Especially mp3s, they have a mp3 search that is like Google's image search. You don't even need to go to the actual source website to download all your songs.

Zamfir wrote:If Kaileyyoung is an astroturfer, he knows more about Chinese censoring than any of us. He might be interesting to talk to.


I doubt he will be back to this thread, but if he does come back I would welcome a discussion. I agree jumping down his throat doesn't help anything, but I don't think he came here to discuss, I think he came here as part of his job to post propaganda.

But, in the small, small chance that he actually reads this: @Kaileyyoung: He did not mean chinese are evil, only the government. His saying means evil government of the Chinese.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zauderer » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

Well, in his profile, he has a spam link, so he's probably a spammer getting some money from the Chinese government on the side.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:56 am UTC

Ok, these forums are really stupid for logging me out while trying to post, so I've forgotten my points, but here's what I can remember.
BoomFrog wrote:Also, Baidu lets you search for pirated movies and mp3 far easier. Especially mp3s, they have a mp3 search that is like Google's image search. You don't even need to go to the actual source website to download all your songs.

I remember back in my middle school days, there were several English language search engines that allowed you to search for mp3, midi, wma, and video like you searched for a normal webpage. Much like today's torrents, the id3 tags could be assumed to be incorrect or useless, but it was still an mp3 search. I noticed that Google never implemented a function like this, probably because of anti-piracy laws.
Anyway [here's where my memory stops from the previous incarnation of the post], I'm with Team Google. They were hacked and called out the Chinese government for permitting these attacks. Also, if the attack vector was through IE and Adobe, how was Google irresponsible, as I've seen it called in some other forums?
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Iv » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:11 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Also, Baidu lets you search for pirated movies and mp3 far easier. Especially mp3s, they have a mp3 search that is like Google's image search. You don't even need to go to the actual source website to download all your songs.

Just tried it. Hard to find anything that is not the most popular bands and all they give you is a link to some crappy videos a la Youtube. Search on Google Video or on Youtube to get about the same result.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby livemansleeping » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 am UTC

whats important about this isn't so much that google is refusing to deal, but that they are doing so in a manner that brings international attention to the fact that the chinese government are assholes. google making the ultimatum will encourage other western companies to do the same, or it will force china to throw google out which will be an act of bad faith against all western companies. this would lead to a decline in the international value of chinese stock as foreign investors pulled out major projects. However, if china does nothing, google will cease to censor the internet as china desires, and cause the citizenry to begin to understand what they are missing.

so really it put the chinese government between a rock and a hard place, and made it so the entire world was watching what they'll do next. The fact that china refuses to comment for the most part to the international community indicates that they know this. depending on the actions of the Chinese government it could have worldwide impacts... especially in relation to china.

and i'm minoring in chinese, i'm almost entirely sure they will be the worlds next superpower, but first they need to learn how to interact with the rest of the world without being pricks (ahem, bush, i mean you too) AND they need to learn that to be a part of the international community, you have to be a part of the international community.

In closing, they're assholes, and the fact that the Chinese government was just humiliated on the world stage is a very good thing no matter how it turns out in the short run.

and the best things we, as american citizens, can do for this, is talk about it loudly, and support google. (for those of you still not using google chrome as your browser, consider downloading it just as an act of support)
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Indon » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:16 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:You say that as if it's an insightful and relevant statement.


As I had noted substantially earlier, the source that Wiki article draws the number of employees employed by the US only lists the number of individuals employed by a single contract.

That is to say, that number's not what you seem to think it is, at all.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:34 am UTC

Clinton had a stern word, and China had a stern word back (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/world ... diplo.html):

New York Times wrote:Declaring that an attack on one nation’s computer networks “can be an attack on all,” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton issued a warning on Thursday that the United States would defend itself from cyberattacks, though she left unclear the means of response.

In a sweeping, pointed address that dealt with the Internet as a force for both liberation and repression, Mrs. Clinton said: “Those who disrupt the free flow of information in our society or any other pose a threat to our economy, our government and our civil society. Countries or individuals that engage in cyber-attacks should face consequences and international condemnation.”

In response, the Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a curt, cautionary statement on its Web site on Friday: “We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China.”


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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:29 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:
New York Times wrote:In response, the Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a curt, cautionary statement on its Web site on Friday: “We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China.”



Uhm... Did China just unwittingly issue a challenge to 4chan? An immovable firewall meets an irresistible troll...
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby The Reaper » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:30 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:
New York Times wrote:In response, the Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a curt, cautionary statement on its Web site on Friday: “We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China.”



Uhm... Did China just unwittingly issue a challenge to 4chan? An immovable firewall meets an irresistible troll...

Let us hope the chaos of the internet can be used for the hand of malicious good.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zorlin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:08 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:No, because the people of the united states keep and bear arms.

Also, national guard.

And how many regularly train with their arms? Guns are next to useless if you don't know how to use one, and to use them effectively you need to be training on at least a monthly basis. In fact, being untrained with a gun is worse than being unarmed in most scenarios.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:17 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Dauric wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:
New York Times wrote:In response, the Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a curt, cautionary statement on its Web site on Friday: “We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China.”



Uhm... Did China just unwittingly issue a challenge to 4chan? An immovable firewall meets an irresistible troll...

Let us hope the chaos of the internet can be used for the hand of malicious good.


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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Philwelch » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:46 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
BlackSails wrote:No, because the people of the united states keep and bear arms.

Also, national guard.

And how many regularly train with their arms? Guns are next to useless if you don't know how to use one, and to use them effectively you need to be training on at least a monthly basis.


Still looking at double-digit percentages of the US male population, especially during hunting season.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Zorlin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:57 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:Still looking at double-digit percentages of the US male population, especially during hunting season.

I do not know a single person who regularly uses a firearm, hunting season or not. I know plenty that own them.

I think there's a lot of variation state-to-state, but here in Washington it'd be all "oh hey! stay back intruder! I've got a gun! Fuck, I missed!"
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Philwelch » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:21 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
Philwelch wrote:Still looking at double-digit percentages of the US male population, especially during hunting season.

I do not know a single person who regularly uses a firearm, hunting season or not. I know plenty that own them.

I think there's a lot of variation state-to-state, but here in Washington it'd be all "oh hey! stay back intruder! I've got a gun! Fuck, I missed!"


Yeah...you're in the wrong part of Washington, trust me.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:56 pm UTC

It's going to be hard to troll China, though. Where are you going to picket?

(Actually, it's fairly easy to troll China verbally, as their government evidently takes offense at everything provided it is said loud enough for them to hear.)

((Speaking of picket, maybe send an anonymous call to the Westboro Baptist Church saying China is like SO gay 'n stuff.))
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:10 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:((Speaking of picket, maybe send an anonymous call to the Westboro Baptist Church saying China is like SO gay 'n stuff.))


"In a secret memo leaked from the communist party, Chinese leaders are debating the potential PR coup if they were to adopt preferential treatment towards homosexuals citing the inability of such couples to procreate and contribute to China's overpopulation problems, as well as giving the communist state arguments to counter the accusations of human rights abuses. Chinese authorities deny any truth to these documents and refuse to comment claiming the leaked documents are too ridiculous to need refuting."

Gotta get the press release right so it's believable.
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Lumpy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:18 pm UTC

Bolded for hilarity

"We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China," the statement said.


Clinton's speech was also denounced by an official newspaper Friday as part of a U.S. campaign to impose its values and denigrate other cultures, labeling it "information imperialism."


Since the accusation is over breaking into e-mail accounts, I guess what they're saying is that breaking, entering, and stealing is a proud part of Chinese culture. Looks like China's strategy is to pull the Mugabe Defense.

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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:20 pm UTC

claiming the leaked documents are too ridiculous to need refuting


This is actually a wonderful defense for almost anything China does. Seeking refuge in audacity works pretty well.
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MrGee
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Re: Google to Reconsider Chinese "Approach"

Postby MrGee » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:58 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:Bolded for hilarity

"We urge the U.S. side to respect facts and stop using the so-called freedom of the Internet to make unjustified accusations against China," the statement said.


Clinton's speech was also denounced by an official newspaper Friday as part of a U.S. campaign to impose its values and denigrate other cultures, labeling it "information imperialism."


...but as long as it's a *government* campaign to impose its values on its own citizens, that's fine?

Niiiiice.


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