Israel/Palestine discussion

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:41 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:The treaty says that the Egyptian government is responsible to prevent attacks in Israel originating from within the Sinai.


But it doesn't say how, or who within the government is responsible for doing it. Again, a broad statement of policy with no assignment of departmental or individual responsibility is only a series of words. On an operational level, does the egyptian border guard look into people leaving the country? Is that in their job description? Or is that the job of someone else in the egyptian government?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
yedidyak wrote:The treaty says that the Egyptian government is responsible to prevent attacks in Israel originating from within the Sinai.


But it doesn't say how, or who within the government is responsible for doing it. Again, a broad statement of policy with no assignment of departmental or individual responsibility is only a series of words. On an operational level, does the egyptian border guard look into people leaving the country? Is that in their job description? Or is that the job of someone else in the egyptian government?


But as you said above, the army/police are a branch of the government. If the IDF attacking would be an act of war, wouldn't the Egyptian police failing to carry out treaty obligations be a breach of the treaty?

In practice I know that they try and stop refugees from crossing into Israel. Sudanese refugees are regularly shot by Egyptian border guards.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:54 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:But as you said above, the army/police are a branch of the government. If the IDF attacking would be an act of war, wouldn't the Egyptian police failing to carry out treaty obligations be a breach of the treaty?


There's a big difference between "You did (specific badthing)" and "you failed to do (poorly defined goodthing) well enough"

In other words, no, it just wouldn't earn you any brownie points.

In practice I know that they try and stop refugees from crossing into Israel. Sudanese refugees are regularly shot by Egyptian border guards.


I note the use of the word "try". Is that something they're obligated to do? Is there evidence that they were blatantly neglectful here, or is the evidence of neglect simply that the terrorists got through?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:57 pm UTC

Except again, part of that treaty is so Egypt can prevent terrorists from passing into Israel, from Egypt, as opposed to Israel doing the job. When terrorists from Egypt enter Israel, it is because Egypt failed to do something it claimed it would do, because it didn't want Israel doing it.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:58 pm UTC

According to the joint report, the Egyptian police saw the terrorists hours before the attack and did nothing. That counts as gross negligence.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:00 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:According to the joint report, the Egyptian police saw the terrorists hours before the attack and did nothing. That counts as gross negligence.


Ahh well. In that case, yes, I see where that's coming from.
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UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:06 pm UTC

The UN's Palmer report into the incident aboard the Turkish flotilla raided by the IDF in which nine people died has been released.

The main conclusions are that the blockade of Gaza is legal, the flotilla was reckless, and that whilst the troops acted in self defense they used excessive force.

Spoiler:
Facts, Circumstances and Context of the Incident

The Panel finds:

i. The events of 31 May 2010 should never have taken place as they did and
strenuous efforts should be made to prevent the occurrence of such incidents
in the future.

ii. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is
subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces
a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade
was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons
from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the
requirements of international law.

iii. The flotilla was a non-governmental endeavour, involving vessels and
participants from a number of countries.

iv. Although people are entitled to express their political views, the flotilla acted
recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. The majority of the
flotilla participants had no violent intentions, but there exist serious questions
about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers,
particularly IHH. The actions of the flotilla needlessly carried the potential
for escalation.

v. The incident and its outcomes were not intended by either Turkey or Israel.
Both States took steps in an attempt to ensure that events did not occur in a
manner that endangered individuals’ lives and international peace and
security. Turkish officials also approached the organizers of the flotilla with
the intention of persuading them to change course if necessary and avoid an
encounter with Israeli forces. But more could have been done to warn the
flotilla participants of the potential risks involved and to dissuade them from
their actions.

vi. Israel’s decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great
distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior
to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable:

a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In
particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a
demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the
type of confrontation that occurred;

b. The operation should have reassessed its options when the resistance to
the initial boarding attempt became apparent.

vii. Israeli Defense Forces personnel faced significant, organized and violent
resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara
requiring them to use force for their own protection. Three soldiers were
captured, mistreated, and placed at risk by those passengers. Several others
were wounded.

viii. The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces
during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine
passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces.
No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any
of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were
shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been
adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

ix. There was significant mistreatment of passengers by Israeli authorities after
the take-over of the vessels had been completed through until their
deportation. This included physical mistreatment, harassment and
intimidation, unjustified confiscation of belongings and the denial of timely
consular assistance.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby MrEmu » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:25 pm UTC

This seems to be basically what you would expect of a situation like this: everybody fucked up.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:35 pm UTC

And Turkey have decided they dont like the report an have expelled the Israeli ambassador. This won't end well.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

Israel is going to run out of embassies if current trends keep up.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:06 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Israel is going to run out of embassies if current trends keep up.

And 'humanitarian aid' movements are going to run out of sympathy if they continue trying to violate an 'illegal' blockade.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:21 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Belial » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:09 pm UTC

You're clear on what illegal means, right?
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

Yeah, the sarcasm quotes were missing. Edited for clarity.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:26 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:And Turkey have decided they dont like the report an have expelled the Israeli ambassador. This won't end well.
Man, you have rose tinted glasses thicker than coke bottles. Turkey didn't like several of its citizens being killed in suspicious circumstances, and Israel refusing to hand over the bodies promptly so Turkey could satisfy itself as to whether they were or weren't shot in the back or back of the head as several accounts held. It exercised great restraint in not acting until the UN reported, and when the UN declared that the force was excessive, expelling the ambassador rather than doing anything more provocative or rash. Turkey gets a million points for mature, diplomatic international relations, but you're basically accusing them of churlish resentment leading to a tit-for-tat retribution. It's incredible to me that you actually believe you're being reasonable and impartial in your thinking about this.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
yedidyak wrote:And Turkey have decided they dont like the report an have expelled the Israeli ambassador. This won't end well.
Man, you have rose tinted glasses thicker than coke bottles. Turkey didn't like several of its citizens being killed in suspicious circumstances, and Israel refusing to hand over the bodies promptly so Turkey could satisfy itself as to whether they were or weren't shot in the back or back of the head as several accounts held. It exercised great restraint in not acting until the UN reported, and when the UN declared that the force was excessive, expelling the ambassador rather than doing anything more provocative or rash. Turkey gets a million points for mature, diplomatic international relations, but you're basically accusing them of churlish resentment leading to a tit-for-tat retribution. It's incredible to me that you actually believe you're being reasonable and impartial in your thinking about this.


The report recommended that Israel publish a statement of regret and pay compensation. All of which Israel offered to do months ago. Turkey insisted on an apology, and admission of guilt. Also, the Turkish president and Foreign minister have said that expelling the ambassador is only a first step. So to say 'rather than doing anything more provocative or rash' is preemptive to say the least. Besides, they didn't wait for the report to come out before acting - the Turkish ambassador was withdrawn a year ago, and Turkey has been openly hostile in many areas since even before than.

EDIT - The Turkish president also said "as far as we're concerned that report doesn't exist." Their expelling of the ambassador wasn't because the report said Israel used excessive force, but because now the report has come out it is obvious that Israel won't apologize to the extent they demand.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

They've been restrained and cautious before now, and restrained in following appropriate diplomatic understandings in expelling the ambassador of a state they feel is not following common expectations of diplomacy in apologising for the killing of foreign nationals. On what grounds do you suspect that in future they will for some reason go crazy and do anything provocative? They've been the polar opposite so far.

If a state deliberately kills your people and just refuses to cooperate with you in accommodating the expectations of your government, public and the relatives of the victims, you have to act. Withdrawing your ambassador is the bare minimum under such circumstances. Expelling theirs would be understandable, and Turkey didn't do that. That is exercising the greatest restraint, and is highly laudable. You somehow see that as evidence that Turkey has been acting excessively over this issue? You're so far outside the realms of reality it's hard to believe.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Dream wrote:If a state deliberately kills your people and just refuses to cooperate with you in accommodating the expectations of your government, public and the relatives of the victims, you have to act.

For someone pointing out perceived inaccuracies or biases in the event, you're certainly presenting some obvious one's yourself.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:For someone pointing out perceived inaccuracies or biases in the event, you're certainly presenting some obvious one's yourself.

It's my recollection that Turkey wanted the bodies returned immediately, along with all other evidence of what transpired aboard the ship, and wanted an independent international inquiry into what was undeniably an international incident. Neither of these things transpired. Are you sure you aren't mistaking "cooperation" for "Israel doing whatever it wants"? Because Israel certainly didn't cooperate with anyone, and it certainly did just do whatever it wanted.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

So a UN investigation is indicative of Israel doing whatever it wants?
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Diadem » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:21 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
yedidyak wrote:And Turkey have decided they dont like the report an have expelled the Israeli ambassador. This won't end well.
Man, you have rose tinted glasses thicker than coke bottles.

That coming from you is truly priceless. Your ability to completely ignore any evidence or argument that might even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of cautiously suggesting that not every single one of your opinions is universal and everlasting truth has always amazed me. I've always wondered if it's staggering self-deception or very cynical manipulation. I still haven't decided.

In casu, the report said this:
The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

It also said this:
the flotilla acted recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. The majority of the flotilla participants had no violent intentions, but there exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly IHH. The actions of the flotilla needlessly carried the potential for escalation.

Where it should be pointed out that in diplomatic language 'serious questions' means "They are certainly guilty, but we can't conclusively proof it". The report goes on:
Israeli Defense Forces personnel faced significant, organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara requiring them to use force for their own protection.

How you manage to translate that into something like "Israel randomly kills Turkish citizens" is beyond me.

The report is very clear that Israel should have given more prior warning, that they used excessive force and that they weren't very civilized afterwards. But the report is also very clear that this entire incident was staged by groups aboard the flotilla, most likely the organizers themselves, that the blockade was legal and they unlawfully resisted and forced Israel to use force.

Excessive force is never acceptable. But Israel has already taken responsibility for that. The same can not be said for Turkey, or the groups that staged the entire debacle. Should Israel do even more to make amends, punish the people responsible and make sure it doesn't happen again. Absolutely. And you can call them out on that. But there's plenty of blame to go around and the majority in this incident certainly does not lie with Israel. So only calling out Israel is very hypocritical.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:How you manage to translate that into something like "Israel randomly kills Turkish citizens" is beyond me.

You're reading some other thread, right? I'm talking about Turkey's diplomatic manouvers, not Israel's military activity. The only time I mentioned the killings was as a plain fact, with no editorialising whatsoever.

Diadem wrote:The report is very clear that Israel should have given more prior warning, that they used excessive force and that they weren't very civilized afterwards.

Which is why Turkey's current and previous responses are not only warranted, but proportionate and responsible. If you agree with the UN that Israel used excessive force without enough warning, then you must agree that Israel has something to apologise for, and its refusal to do so lead to diplomatic responses from Turkey.

So, if you want to talk about current diplomatic events, please do. If you want to continue fantasising about how I must be commenting on the flotilla incident, do it by yourself and quit wasting thread space.

Izawwlgood wrote:So a UN investigation is indicative of Israel doing whatever it wants?

It's not indicative of anything about Israel, it's the UN. Did Israel fully and immediately cooperate with the UN investigation, or did it refuse to countenance an international inquiry, instead insisting that its own internal one (with passive, non-speaking external monitors), was more than enough?
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:48 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Which is why Turkey's current and previous responses are not only warranted, but proportionate and responsible. If you agree with the UN that Israel used excessive force without enough warning, then you must agree that Israel has something to apologise for, and its refusal to do so lead to diplomatic responses from Turkey.


Except that the UN recommended that Israel issue a statement of regret and pay compensation, which Israel offered to do. It's Turkey who is not accepting the report here, not Israel.
Dream wrote:It's not indicative of anything about Israel, it's the UN. Did Israel fully and immediately cooperate with the UN investigation, or did it refuse to countenance an international inquiry, instead insisting that its own internal one (with passive, non-speaking external monitors), was more than enough?


This was a UN panel set up by the Secretary General, with a representative from each country. Israel fully cooperated. I think you're confusing this with a different report, maybe the internal Israeli one with international observers?

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:13 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Except that the UN recommended that Israel issue a statement of regret and pay compensation, which Israel offered to do. It's Turkey who is not accepting the report here, not Israel.

I'm not suggesting either country is or isn't holding any opinion on the UN report. I'm suggesting that if Turkey thinks the UN finding of excessive force and insufficient warning merits an apology, and (because Israel disagrees) it doesn't get one, then expelling the Israeli ambassador is the appropriate action. Turkey is being very literally diplomatic, and you're accusing it of being childish and irresponsible.

yedidyak wrote: I think you're confusing this with a different report, maybe the internal Israeli one with international observers?

I'm not confusing it, I'm contrasting it. After the incident, Israel maintained that its own inquiry would be sufficient, and refused to cooperate with Turkish and other calls for an independent international inquiry. Turkey withdrew its ambassador over Israel's refusal to cooperate. Now people are claiming that this UN report indicates cooperation. It doesn't. At the time of the incident, Israel was uncooperative, and Turkey acted accordingly.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:22 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I'm not suggesting either country is or isn't holding any opinion on the UN report. I'm suggesting that if Turkey thinks the UN finding of excessive force and insufficient warning merits an apology, and (because Israel disagrees) it doesn't get one, then expelling the Israeli ambassador is the appropriate action. Turkey is being very literally diplomatic, and you're accusing it of being childish and irresponsible.


The UN didnt think it merited an apology. Not just Israel.

Dream wrote:After the incident, Israel maintained that its own inquiry would be sufficient, and refused to cooperate with Turkish and other calls for an independent international inquiry. Turkey withdrew its ambassador over Israel's refusal to cooperate. Now people are claiming that this UN report indicates cooperation. It doesn't. At the time of the incident, Israel was uncooperative, and Turkey acted accordingly.


Turkey also held its own investigation. Now the independent UN report has finally come out, Israel accepted it, whilst Turkey expelled the ambassador, and is planning on new steps, the next seems to be to bring the blockade before the ICJ.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

I still don't see what your problem is. Turkey doesn't like what Israel did, and what Israel did killed some of its citizens. Therefore Turkey is following well understood international protocol in dealing with the situation diplomatically. It seems to me that you don't like this because you don't like that Turkey won't do what you expect it to, and agree with Israel. Because Turkey's behaviour is nothing to object to, at all.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Me321 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:59 am UTC

So if I were to run a blocade conducted by say... China, and was shot, would the USA expell the Chinese ambasador, or just apologise for me being an idiot?

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby PeterCai » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:37 am UTC

Me321 wrote:So if I were to run a blocade conducted by say... China, and was shot, would the USA expell the Chinese ambasador, or just apologise for me being an idiot?

if sino-american relationship is anything like turkish-israeli at all, then maybe you can make this comparison, but it's not, so...

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:45 am UTC

Me321 wrote:So if I were to run a blocade conducted by say... China, and was shot, would the USA expell the Chinese ambasador, or just apologise for me being an idiot?

They didn't expel anyone over the deaths. They withdrew their own ambassador. They expelled the Israeli ambassador over the lack of an apology for using excessive force, an apology they felt was warranted.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:30 pm UTC

Looks like this is escalating:

The Turkish Navy will bolster its presence in the eastern Mediterranean Sea to prevent Israeli operations, Turkish officials said over the weekend, as the crisis between Jerusalem and Ankara intensified following the publication of the Palmer Report on last year’s flotilla conflict.

“A more aggressive strategy will be pursued. Israel will no longer be able to exercise its bullying practices freely,” a Turkish diplomatic source was quoted as saying in the Hurriyet Daily News. The source said that the navy would accompany ships bringing aid to the Gaza Strip.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:40 pm UTC

So the reaction to Israel's lack of apology (which the UN thought unnecessary) so far: Expelling Israel's ambassador. Lowering the level of diplomatic representation in Israel. Suing Israel on Gaza's behalf. Offering to escort ships trying to break a legal blockade. And probably holding a state visit to Gaza, which is run by Hamas.

But this is all unobjectionable standard diplomacy.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

Wars have started over less. It's kind of a smart move by Turkey, in terms of political wrestling although probably not in terms of optimal policy. They've basically issued a challenge to Israel to try and stop blockade runners by force again, but this time it will be an act of war against Turkey. If Israel backs down, Turkey wins a major prestige victory in addition to achieving their political goals. If Israel calls the bluff, well, wars have started over less.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:05 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I still don't see what your problem is. Turkey doesn't like what Israel did, and what Israel did killed some of its citizens.

Do you remember when that American college student received a caning for graffiting cars in singapor? If you violate the laws of another country, especially the internationally legal ones, don't be surprised if you suffer the consequences.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Didn't the raid happen in international waters though? And wasn't that one of the major complaints about it? Plus, the UN report didn't say the Israelis, or any other nation, have the right to impose blockades by pre-emptively raiding ships in international waters, only that the blockade itself was legal. So, I'm not sure that analogy holds here.

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:But this is all unobjectionable standard diplomacy.

Yes. Now you get it. Turkey is in fact allowed to follow legal and peaceful mechanisms to attempt the resolution of its dispute with Israel in its own favour.

Izawwlgood wrote:If you violate the laws of another country, especially the internationally legal ones, don't be surprised if you suffer the consequences.

And if your own country doesn't like that, then it can expect diplomatic pressure to be exerted against it on your behalf. Which is what's happening here.

Once again, I don't see what the problem is, beyond "Holy Shit They're Opposing Israeli Policy", which I'm practically certain has no standing in international relations.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:19 pm UTC

Stating that you will use force to facilitate another nation or organization in the violation of theyre laws is what I'm finding to be objectionable.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:23 pm UTC

Has Turkey said they want an apology for Israel enforcing their blockade which has been found to be legal or has Turkey said they want an apology for actions found to be "excessive and unreasonable" by the UN?

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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Stating that you will use force to facilitate another nation or organization in the violation of theyre laws is what I'm finding to be objectionable.

Then could you state for the record you're cool with the diplomatic responses? It doesn't sound like you are.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

Removing their diplomat? I don't think its wise or particularly diplomatic, but I don't think there's anything offhand unreasonable about it. Will you state for the record what you think about turkey stating it will use military force to support organizations seeking to violate the legal blockade?
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Will you state for the record what you think about turkey stating it will use military force to support organizations seeking to violate the legal blockade?

It didn't say that, so no, I won't.

However, escorting Turkish flagged vessels in international waters to deter a repeat of military activity that has been labelled excessive by the UN? I support Turkey's right to do that. I would withdraw that support if Turkey were to prove incapable of doing it without being provocative or reckless, but at the moment it has only made reference to its intentions in words. I see no reason to worry that Turkey is going to behave recklessly, as it has been scrupulously restrained so far, and words are words.
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Re: UN report into flotilla incident released

Postby yedidyak » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:31 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Will you state for the record what you think about turkey stating it will use military force to support organizations seeking to violate the legal blockade?

It didn't say that, so no, I won't.

However, escorting Turkish flagged vessels in international waters to deter a repeat of military activity that has been labelled excessive by the UN? I support Turkey's right to do that. I would withdraw that support if Turkey were to prove incapable of doing it without being provocative or reckless, but at the moment it has only made reference to its intentions in words. I see no reason to worry that Turkey is going to behave recklessly, as it has been scrupulously restrained so far, and words are words.


The UN said that the whole essence of the flotilla was provocative and reckless, and that Turkey should have done more to stop it happening, and should try to stop any further flotillas. Where does giving them military escorts fit into that?


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