Israel/Palestine discussion

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zmic
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby zmic » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:58 am UTC

As if Israel hasn't got enough problems on their hands with the situation in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestine territories, now they're gonna pick a little war with a country 20 times its size.

You gotta admire their chutzpah!

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sardia » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:29 pm UTC

zmic wrote:As if Israel hasn't got enough problems on their hands with the situation in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestine territories, now they're gonna pick a little war with a country 20 times its size.

You gotta admire their chutzpah!

Come now, that's like saying the police would have problems fighting rioters. Quality of equipment and training matters.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:52 pm UTC

zmic wrote:As if Israel hasn't got enough problems on their hands with the situation in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestine territories, now they're gonna pick a little war with a country 20 times its size.

You gotta admire their chutzpah!


Well, the countries aren't neighbours, so the numerical advantage isn't so important as the number and quality of aircraft. If this were a battle on the ground... this would probably not be on the table.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:22 pm UTC

Problem is an airstrike against Iran is likely to lose Israel it's entire airforce, and it would have to resort to 'threaten to use nukes until the US agrees to save us' mode.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:09 pm UTC

So the World Bank published a report called Towards Economic Sustainability of a Future Palestinian State: Promoting Private Sector-Led Growth a couple of weeks ago. It's 153 pages long and I'm no economist, but the 33 page overview is pretty interesting. They trace the current situation back to the Second Intifada and the resultant end of jobs for Palestinians in Israel and the restrictions then placed on Palestinians for the continuing destitution. There are numerous suggestions, of course, on how the Palestinian economy could potentially grow very rapidly should restrictions be eased. Here's the overview's overview:

With the advent of the Oslo Peace Process and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA) it was hoped that the Palestinian economy, free of Israeli security constraints, would grow quickly. Unfortun36ately, [sic] these hopes were quickly dashed. The peace process stalled, Israeli settlements expanded and violence along with the attendant security restrictions increased. Over that past decade, the Palestinian economy has become increasingly dependent upon foreign assistance to drive its growth as the productive sectors have declined in importance and government funded services have increased. For a future Palestinian state to be viable it is necessary that it have a private sector led economy that will generate the jobs needed by a rapidly growing population and the resources required by the government to provide services. This paper reviews some of the most important issues facing the Palestinian economy and identifies steps that can be taken now to set the stage for private sector led growth. It is designed as a synthesis of previous analysis that will help guide policy makers as they set medium term development agenda.


You can read the full report here.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:24 pm UTC

Meanwhile in Jerusalem:

The police said that scores of Jewish youths were involved in the attack late Thursday in West Jerusalem’s Zion Square, leaving one 17-year-old unconscious and hospitalized. Hundreds of bystanders watched the mob beating, the police said — and no one intervened.

Two of the suspects were girls, the youngest 13, adding to the soul-searching and acknowledgment that the poisoned political environment around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has affected the moral compass of youths growing up within it.

“If it was up to me, I’d have murdered him,” the 15-year-old suspect told reporters outside court on Monday. “He cursed my mother.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/world ... &ref=world

Things like this remind me of AB Yehoshua's philosophy that only in Israel can one live a truly Jewish life:

Noted Israeli author and Israel Prize Laureate, A.B. Yehoshua, delivered a lecture on Friday in which he stated that American Jews “are partial Jews while I am a complete Jew.”
(http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/ ... 012/03/18/)

A 15-year-old suspect standing outside court said, “For my part he can die, he’s an Arab.”


I wonder what crazy adventures these "complete Jews" will get up to next?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:59 pm UTC

Well that was the most anti-Semitic thing I've ever read on these boards, by a long way.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Radical_Initiator » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:22 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Well that was the most anti-Semitic thing I've ever read on these boards, by a long way.

Which part?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:49 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:Which part?


The part where a horrific crime 'reminds him' of how Jews in Israel are 'complete Jews', and where he wonders what 'crazy adventures' these 'complete Jews' will get up to next.

The insinuation that 'complete Jews' naturally commit barbaric acts of racism.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:18 pm UTC

Not "naturally." But perhaps as a natural consequence of dedicating a state founded on someone else's homeland to an ideal of "complete [insert ethnic label]ness."

Zionism has long taken as one of its first principles that the state of Israel represents the Jews of the world, and is entitled to speak for them and claim redress for their grievances.

As the state sinks deeper into a racist ideal of Jewish supremacy enforced by mob violence, some of the "partial Jews" out there may want to consider if this arrangement works for them.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:07 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:Zionism has long taken as one of its first principles that the state of Israel represents the Jews of the world, and is entitled to speak for them and claim redress for their grievances.

And every supremacist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel speaks for 'all Muslims'.

Your point seems to be that 'extremist groups lay claim to everyone with even loose ties to them in an effort to lend credibility either by numbers or as an appeal to authority'. This is hardly new, this is hardly exclusive to Zionism, and this is hardly representative of Israeli politics as a whole.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:46 am UTC

EMTP wrote:Not "naturally." But perhaps as a natural consequence of dedicating a state founded on someone else's homeland to an ideal of "complete [insert ethnic label]ness."


I think you will find that the Jewish people do regard Israel as their homeland. If you go far enough back in history it was unambiguously their homeland. Simply asserting that it is someone else's homeland is disingenuous at best.

EMTP wrote:As the state sinks deeper into a racist ideal of Jewish supremacy enforced by mob violence, some of the "partial Jews" out there may want to consider if this arrangement works for them.


I also think you will find that Jewish supremacy, is enforced and maintained by their highly functional military which has bested the combined efforts of the neighbors on multiple occasions. And not in fact, by beating up 15 year old girls.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby engr » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:44 am UTC

Police is now saying (link in Hebrew, sorry) that the Jewish girl who has been arrested has incited her friends by telling them she has been gang-raped by Arab youths. Whether that happened or not is kind of a moot point, since the people who got beat up were not the alleged rapists anyway.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:40 am UTC

Is there any word on whether or not the victim was an Israeli citizen? Racist violence against Arabs is bad enough, if he was an Israeli citizen as well...

The NYT wrote:Mark Regev, a spokesman for Mr. Netanyahu, said of the beating, “We unequivocally condemn racist violence and urge the police and law enforcement community to act expeditiously to bring the perpetrators to justice.”


Ohhhhh, Netanyahu. What did you think you were encouraging when you asked people to imply the Palestinians are genocidal, neo-Nazis?

EMTP wrote:Things like this remind me of AB Yehoshua's philosophy that only in Israel can one live a truly Jewish life:


Why would you go on this kind of odd tangent when the article provides so many choice quotes on the culture of Jewish supremacy in Israel?

“There appears to be a worryingly high level of tolerance — whether explicit or implicit — for such despicable acts of violence,” The Jerusalem Post editorialized on Monday.
...
Nimrod Aloni, the head of the Institute for Educational Thought at a Tel Aviv teachers college, said, “this cannot just be an expression of something he has heard at home.”

“This is directly tied to national fundamentalism that is the same as the rhetoric of neo-Nazis, Taliban and K.K.K.,” Mr. Aloni said. “This comes from an entire culture that has been escalating toward an open and blunt language based on us being the chosen people who are allowed to do whatever we like.”
...
Some commentators connected the violence against Palestinians with other racial issues pervading Israeli society. The latest attacks came after a summer of simmering resentment and some violent protests against the swelling number of African migrants and asylum seekers in Tel Aviv. The outburst of popular rage, fanned by provocative statements by some rightist politicians, led to a government crackdown to stem the influx.

Gavriel Salomon, a professor of educational psychology at Haifa University, told Israel Radio on Monday that the attacks could be attributed to increasing racism in Israeli society, increased levels of violence in general and an atmosphere of “legitimacy.”

“Suddenly it’s not so terrible to burn Arabs inside a taxi,” he said.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:54 pm UTC

Why would you go on this kind of odd tangent when the article provides so many choice quotes on the culture of Jewish supremacy in Israel?


AB Yehoshua has been beating this particular drum for thirty years, and I have always thought of it as a dangerous, destructive, chauvinistic ideal. It forms, however, one of his key arguments for Zionism; Jews aren't really Jews without Israel, so if you oppose Zionism, you are arguing for the elimination of all Jews, culturally if not physically. It was associated in my mind with this episode, and I decided to share that association, for the reasons I already outlined.

True, there are more examples of the culture of Jewish supremacy than there is time to cite them. And reliably one will be accused of anti-Semitism. Would you believe -- you may find this to be another tangent, but here goes -- would you believe that way back when, in 1999 or so, when I was first writing about these issues, I was accused of anti-Semitism for referring to Jewish fundamentalism? No such thing, furious Zionists insisted to me. There's no such thing. Islamic fundamentalism, yes, Christian fundamentalism, but the idea of Jewish fundamentalism is racist, and let us hear no more about it.

No, I said, it's not everybody, but look at some of these religious leaders, how they preach Biblical literalism, how they treat women, how they regard people of different faiths; they are clearly religious fundamentalists. Impossible, I was told. That's antithetical to Judaism. You're an anti-Semite.

I had similar conversations five years ago when I pointed out that large majorities of Jewish Israelis (or "complete Jews") held a variety of racist beliefs including that Palestinians were less intelligent, less clean, and more violent than Jews (as demonstrated by multiple polls over several years). I pointed to the systematic discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel and the anti-Palestinian pogroms in the West Bank, which were well underway by then. This is a racist society, I argued, that needs to reject racism. (Impossible. That's antithetical to Judaism. You're an anti-Semite.)

You might say my experiences have left me somewhat jaded about the charges of anti-Semitism which accompany most reactions to uncomfortable truths about Zionism and Israel. The uncomfortable truth, in this case, is that just like Lenin's "new socialist man" the physical and spiritual rebirth of the Jewish people in Israel which was one of the major premises of the Zionist idea has given rise to a so-called "complete Judaism" that does not do credit to its parents.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:07 pm UTC

It's pretty difficult to find natural experiments for things that would be inhumane to test scientifically, but it appears that by 2016 we will find the answer to the question of "How long can a tiny but densely populated area survive with only enough imports to just barely prevent a humanitarian crisis?"

LA Times: U.N.: Gaza to be unlivable by 2020 unless serious action taken wrote:The Gaza Strip will be drained of safe water to drink and perilously short on schools, homes and hospitals if serious action isn’t taken to help its booming young population, the United Nations said in a new report released Monday. The rising pressures could soon make Gaza unlivable, it warned.
...
Gaza is already suffering a shortfall of 71,000 housing units and as many as 250 schools. Over the next eight years, a projected population increase to 2.1 million from from 1.6 million would require roughly 800 hospital beds and 190 more schools on top of the existing shortfall, the U.N. found.

The boom would also necessitate more than twice as much electricity for Gaza, where people already face regular power cuts, and could irreparably damage the coastal aquifer that supplies almost all of the territory's water. Palestinians in Gaza already consume far more water than flows back into the aquifer, depleting the water supply and causing salt water to leak in at troubling levels.

With more thirsty mouths to quench, the water source could be unusable in just four years and irreversibly damaged by 2020, the report says.
...

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:22 am UTC

And next door, in Sderot, school started on Monday. Which was an opportunity for first-graders to explore new bomb shelters, in the three times that day they had to run for cover.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby zmic » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:And next door, in Sderot, school started on Monday. Which was an opportunity for first-graders to explore new bomb shelters, in the three times that day they had to run for cover.


you gotta wonder how Israel is going to attack Iran if it can't stop some ragtag terrorists from firing rockets right across the border.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vahir » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

It might actually have been better if they cut off ALL food imports, including humanitarian aid. Without food, Hamas would have no choice but to stop the rocket attacks in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal. That said, I do remember hearing about Israel offering to loosen the blockade on select foodstuffs, with a Hamas refusing, saying (Paraphrased) "We don't want food, we want resources to build rockets". I can't give a source, though, so I won't fault you for taking that with a grain of salt.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:19 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
yedidyak wrote:And next door, in Sderot, school started on Monday. Which was an opportunity for first-graders to explore new bomb shelters, in the three times that day they had to run for cover.


you gotta wonder how Israel is going to attack Iran if it can't stop some ragtag terrorists from firing rockets right across the border.


Damaging a sophisticated nuclear program is a different story to stopping some guys in the back of a truck. Anyway, three rockets in a day is sort of unusual these days. Before Cast Lead it was normal for there to be over a hundred.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:26 pm UTC

Good news for the children. But why was that your response to the impending death of 1.5-2 million people by dehydration in Gaza? Other than demonstrating the assurance of those deaths due to Israeli apathy and "security concerns"?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby BeerBottle » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:56 pm UTC

Haven't seen any mention of this on the forums:

The death of the pro-Palestinian activist Rachel Corrie was not caused by the negligence of the Israeli state or army, a judge has ruled, dismissing a civil lawsuit brought by the family.

Corrie's death was an accident for which the state of Israel was not responsible, said the judge at Haifa district court.

There had been no fault in the internal Israeli military investigation clearing the driver of the bulldozer that crushed Corrie to death in March 2003 of any blame. The judge said the driver had not seen the young American activist.

Corrie could have saved herself by moving out of the zone of danger as any reasonable person would have done, said Judge Oded Gershon. He ruled that no compensation would be paid and the family would not have to pay costs of the case.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/au ... dent-judge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19391814

Whatever your views on the conflict she was a pretty brave lady.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:12 pm UTC

I saw that in the local news. I'm not really sure why they couldn't give her family the $1 they asked for. It's possible to admit responsibility without admitting fault. Refusing to reveal the identity of the driver also seems bizarre to me.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:26 pm UTC

Probably because he'd probably be targeted for assassination for something that (the court ruled) is not his fault.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:01 am UTC

yurell wrote:Probably because he'd probably be targeted for assassination for something that (the court ruled) is not his fault.


This.

If you choose to enter a conflict zone, against the warnings of your own country, refuse to leave when you are told by soldiers on the ground, and then stand in front of a bulldozer where the driver can't see you then you can't blame anyone else for what happens.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:10 pm UTC

Well, sure you can; this is Israel we're talking about, it's always in the wrong.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:17 pm UTC

Forgive me if I take with a grain of salt the findings of a court that refused to allow the physician who performed the autopsy to testify.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:23 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Forgive me if I take with a grain of salt the findings of a court that refused to allow the physician who performed the autopsy to testify.


Israeli courts are well known for being independent.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:33 pm UTC

I'm glad you think that, bro. Doesn't change the fact that this one unreasonably skewed the body of evidence in a way that favored the IDF.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:I'm glad you think that, bro. Doesn't change the fact that this one unreasonably skewed the body of evidence in a way that favored the IDF.


Why would the autopsy make a difference? No one is challenging the way she died at this point.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:54 pm UTC

Uh, the claim that the driver never saw Rachel Corrie is something that can potentially be challenged by forensic science. This isn't hard.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:03 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Uh, the claim that the driver never saw Rachel Corrie is something that can potentially be challenged by forensic science. This isn't hard.


And how would "the physician who performed the autopsy" be relevant to deciding what the driver could see?

Just so you are aware, four forensic experts, including one on behalf of the Corrie family, took part in the case, and all concluded that the driver couldn't see her.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

Whether or not the injuries sustained are consistent with the claim that she had climbed to the top of the dirt mound, in full view of the driver, who kept driving.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Whether or not the injuries sustained are consistent with the claim that she had climbed to the top of the dirt mound, in full view of the driver, who kept driving.


That's also not really in dispute. Everyone agrees that she had fallen behind the mound of dirt when she was crushed. Israel allowed in four ISM activists who were present to testify. A doctor who declared her dead later wouldn't know whether the driver could see her. The four experts chosen to assess that would, and they all concluded that the driver couldn't.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:44 pm UTC

Gonna need a cite on that one, because three sworn affadavits say otherwise
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:54 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Gonna need a cite on that one, because three sworn affadavits say otherwise


From the article you linked to:

First Testimony wrote:As the bulldozer continued to advance Rachel bent her knees slightly in a semi-crouching position. She was still easily visible to the driver as he approached from a distance of 2-3 meters.

As the bulldozer came extremely close to Rachel it began to push the dirt from underneath her feet and around her ankles. She stood up and struggled to stay on top of the dirt. She climbed upwards to a point where again she was visible to the driver. Rachel was unable to maintain her position on the pile of dirt and she was pushed backwards.


So she was crouching, and struggling to stay on top of the dirt, and then climbed up again (?) and then was unable to maintain her position on top of the pile.

As the experts concluded, the driver could not actually see her, despite what this witness claims. As this testimony says though, by the time the bulldozer actually reached her, she was behind the dirt pile.

Second Testimony wrote:She stood up. She was forced by the bulldozer’s continued approach to clamber on to the mound of earth. When she did this her head was mostly over the level of the bulldozer blade. I felt that the crew’s continued progress after this moment (rather than backing up slightly then starting forward again as they had done before) demonstrated an aggressive intent. As the bulldozer continued, she started to fall down and into the pile of earth, her lower legs out of site.


SO she started behind the mound, then tried to climb over it and was buried. Again, she was behind the dirt, and as the experts said, the driver couldn't see her,

Third Testimony wrote: As the bulldozer reached the place where Rachel was standing, she began as many of us did on the day to climb the pile of earth. She reached the top and at this point she must have been clearly visible to the driver, especially as she was still wearing the high visibility jacket. She turned and faced in my direction and began to come back down the pile. The bulldozer continued to move forward at the same speed. As her feet hit the ground I saw a panicked expression on her face and began to move forward shouting and gesturing to the driver to stop. Something happened at this point to push Rachel forward onto her face. The pile of earth engulfed her and she was hidden from my view.


Same again.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vahir » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

Protesters who go to other countries to publicly defy them and are surprised when things go badly are annoying. Obviously, her death was tragic, but come on, she knew when she went there that there was at least a possibility that things would go south.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:35 pm UTC

Every account says that she reached the top of the mound, so cut out the obfuscation if you want to be taken seriously. They also state that she was standing in clear visibility before kneeling, and that the bulldozer started from far off enough that there was no question that there was a line of sight. One of the protesters mentioned having used the megaphone to inform the driver of Rachel's presence there.

Even if one were to concede that the driver didn't see her (which is absurd based on eyewitness accounts), the fact that these bulldozers had a blind spot right the fuck in front of them means that there should have been a spotter on the ground to make sure that no protesters were in the blind spot.

I'm not just talking about best practices. I'm talking about the IDF's responsibilities under Geneva.

The judge moreover claimed that even if the IDF is guilty of homicide, negligent or otherwise, the fact that it was a combat zone exempts them from any liability for wrongdoing. This runs directly counter to international law and basic human decency.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:01 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Every account says that she reached the top of the mound, so cut out the obfuscation if you want to be taken seriously. They also state that she was standing in clear visibility before kneeling, and that the bulldozer started from far off enough that there was no question that there was a line of sight. One of the protesters mentioned having used the megaphone to inform the driver of Rachel's presence there.


Yet all four experts agreed that the driver couldn't see her.

Have you ever seen a military D9? With bulletproof windows and an anti-RPG cage?

Image

They don't have much of a line of sight.

And a megaphone? That's a joke. These things make more noise than a tank. And the driver is inside with the windows closed because an hour before a soldier was injured by a grenade in the same area.

You can't stand in front of a bulldozer the size of a house, over and over again, in an active combat zone and expect to get away with it every time. Accidents will happen. When you put yourself in the path of a hundred tons of metal, then accidents can be fatal.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:34 pm UTC

I find it kind of funny that you're trying to use a picture (which I've already seen, thanks) to try and convince me that three people on the scene with a clear view of what was going on weren't capable of judging whether there was ever a direct line of sight.

At least one of the eyewitnesses reports hearing IDF soldiers shout back, so I'm calling BS on your assertion about the megaphone.

And while lack of line of sight may be a complete defense against accusations of intentional homicide, operating those machines in the vicinity of civilian protesters without there being anyone capable of judging whether or not the bulldozers were about to crush a human being is a clear violation of the IDF's responsibility under Geneva to protect civilians in the area.
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