Israel/Palestine discussion

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BattleMoose
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
No you didn't. You didn't cite a "dicitionary definitiosn," [sic] merely asserted what it was.


I literally cited and quoted dictionary definitions 2 posts ago.


You alluded to wikipedia, but didn't give a citation -- you know what a citation is? -- or quote the part you thought supported you.


If you need to be told, to go check a wikipedia page, to learn about something, then you need serious help. I quoted the first line of the page.

Every time you've argued fact with me, you've lost, and this is no exception. Your ability to keep typing and pressing "Submit" does not mean we are still debating. It's over. You lost.


Its interesting to note, you haven't engaged at all, with either of the dictionary definitions you demanded. Or with how Wikipedia describes a colony. But please, carry on pretending Israel is a colony, or was but now isn't or whatever fabrication of reality your position has now morphed into.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:04 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:the difference between a colonial project and a colony

Image
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WibblyWobbly
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:12 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
EMTP wrote:BM: You're not contributing to the discussion with the insults and the whining and the quote sniping.


I was having a lot of fun pointing out how and where you refer to Israel as a colony. After you insist so fervently its not and now that it is.


Yet all you managed to do was show you don't know the difference between a colonial project and a colony, even when given the specific example of South Africa.

I cited the wikipedia page and dicitionary definitiosn you stated was the ones you used. And showed they don't apply to Israel.


No you didn't. You didn't cite a "dicitionary definitiosn," [sic] merely asserted what it was. You alluded to wikipedia, but didn't give a citation -- you know what a citation is? -- or quote the part you thought supported you.

Every time you've argued fact with me, you've lost, and this is no exception. Your ability to keep typing and pressing "Submit" does not mean we are still debating. It's over. You lost.


Sorry to arrive late to the game, but I was a little confused regarding what you see as the definition for a "colonial project". The major definitions I've seen for colonies or colonialism (OED, Merriam-Webster) do seem to suggest colonies or colonial aspirations require sending settlers to distant areas, with colonists maintaining a strong link to the parent state, and then using the presence of those settlers to exert military or political power on their behalf. Whether that could be used to categorize modern settlement strategy as "colonialism," I'm not sure, but it seems clear that the formation and existence of the state of Israel itself is not a colonial one, as the early Israelis had no states to which they maintained formal allegiance. Perhaps this article can shed some light on the differences? In particular:

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:The term colony comes from the Latin word colonus, meaning farmer. This root reminds us that the practice of colonialism usually involved the transfer of population to a new territory, where the arrivals lived as permanent settlers while maintaining political allegiance to their country of origin. Imperialism, on the other hand, comes from the Latin term imperium, meaning to command. Thus, the term imperialism draws attention to the way that one country exercises power over another, whether through settlement, sovereignty, or indirect mechanisms of control.


It seems like you're looking more for the word "imperialist" when referring to Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs. Apologies if that's all very obvious, but from the back-and-forth you two are having, it doesn't seem like it is.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:43 pm UTC

It seems like you're looking more for the word "imperialist" when referring to Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs. Apologies if that's all very obvious, but from the back-and-forth you two are having, it doesn't seem like it is.


The Zionist movement is still very clearly using colonial communities -- called settlers -- to try and occupy and control foreign land, inasmuch as the West Bank and the Golan Heights are not generally considered part of Israeli territory. Israel has 500,000 colonists -- 10% of the total Jewish population under their control -- in the West Bank, and their colonial aims are funded and supported by the Israeli public as a whole.

The Zionist movement is very clearly colonial in its origins, and used its relationship with the British colonial power to colonize Palestine. Zionist colonists are a historical fact, and if you like you can argue that they instantly ceased to be in any way colonial the moment they got rid of the British, before instantly becoming a colonial power in 1967 (New motto: "The Zionist movement: Colonialism-free 1950-1966!) I think that's a silly claim, but these are labels ultimately and different people can apply them differently. But to say the Zionists weren't colonial is directly contradicted by the facts and their own words.

Former colonies that still maintain the colonial structure -- with colonists as full citizens, and indigenous people ruled and controlled by the foreigners -- can be considered colonial projects. (If you prefer to say imperialist, say that. Really this is a quibble about words that BM is attached to because he got tired of being proven wrong about every legal, factual and historical particular. The particular term is not especially important; the behavior is.) From the wikipedia page on colonialism(1):

Colonialism is the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition, and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory. It is a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and often between the colonists and the indigenous population.


The UN's Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples lays out the fundamental rights to which indigenous people are entitled:

Indigenous peoples and individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and individuals and have the right to be free from
any kind of discrimination, in the exercise of their rights, in particular that based on their indigenous origin or
identity. Indigenous peoples have the right to self-determination. By that right they can freely determine their
political status and pursue their economic, social and cultural development. They have the right to maintain and
strengthen their distinct political, legal, economic, social and cultural institutions, while retaining their rights to
participate fully, if they choose to, in the political, economic, social and cultural life of the state.


(http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/doc ... ips_en.pdf)

Does this colonial situation, in which there is a tension between the rights of the colonizers and the colonized, apply to Israel? Note that while the declaration was supported by "Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cambodia, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Gabon, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Guinea, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia (Federated States of), Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Thailand, the Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United Republic of Tanzania, Uruguay, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, [and] Zimbabwe," (2) Israel did not sign. So they obviously realize this applies to their situation. ;)

--------------------------------
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratio ... d_adoption
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

Congrats on copying a list from the wiki page. I note that you missed the accompanying lists of opposers, abstainers, etc. Israel does not appear to be listed anywhere, including opposing or simply absent.

I find it difficult to imagine that you did not see these lists, as these are literally next to each other. I think it much more likely that you are simply more interested in ascribing negative actions and motives to Israel than in actually seeking truth.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby addams » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Congrats on copying a list from the wiki page. I note that you missed the accompanying lists of opposers, abstainers, etc. Israel does not appear to be listed anywhere, including opposing or simply absent.

I find it difficult to imagine that you did not see these lists, as these are literally next to each other. I think it much more likely that you are simply more interested in ascribing negative actions and motives to Israel than in actually seeking truth.

You may be correct in one way and mistaken in a different way.

The author or poster may truly be blind to conflicting data.
That happens. It is nothing to be proud of.

It is not good to attack a blind person, either.
If you yell at a blind guy, is he going to be able to see better?

No! If you yell at a person that is so emotionally invested that hysterical blindness is present;
Will That Help? No!

What will?
I don't know.

I do know we not only will leave damning data out.
We will sometimes become really and truly blind to it.

Be nice. You don't know what the personality you are communicating with has been through.
It might be a Bot! Would you feel silly having made personal attacks to a machine?

I would.
For some reason curling up with one is ok.
Yelling at one should be kept to a minimum.

I know!
Sometimes even the sweet innocent machines have it coming!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:56 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Congrats on copying a list from the wiki page. I note that you missed the accompanying lists of opposers, abstainers, etc. Israel does not appear to be listed anywhere, including opposing or simply absent.

I find it difficult to imagine that you did not see these lists, as these are literally next to each other. I think it much more likely that you are simply more interested in ascribing negative actions and motives to Israel than in actually seeking truth.


You know that (or think you do; see below) because I linked to my source. I quoted the part I was especially interested in, and provide the source, so that anyone, you for example, could go look at the quote in context. That's how quotes work. That's how citation works. Taking from that that I'm not interested in "seeking truth" underlines your unfamiliarity with how you actually make an argument and support it.

Israel does not appear to be listed anywhere, including opposing or simply absent.


Wrong. They are listed as absent(1). Geez, how embarrassing you tried to take me on for supposedly misrepresenting the source, saying I didn't care about the truth, and it turns out not only was I right, you directly misrepresented the source. :oops:

------------

1. "Absent:[13] Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, Gambia, Grenada, Guinea-Bissau, Israel, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Montenegro, Morocco, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Romania, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, São Tomé and Príncipe, Seychelles, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Tajikistan, Togo, Tonga, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu."
Last edited by EMTP on Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:07 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:59 pm UTC

I think we do need to explain to EMTP how quotes work, particularly what context is.

Or how editing your quotes to include what you were criticized for omitting doesn't make them wrong for pointing that out.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vahir » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:08 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:Every time you've argued fact with me, you've lost, and this is no exception. Your ability to keep typing and pressing "Submit" does not mean we are still debating. It's over. You lost.


This is a very arrogant assumption, and as a third party, I can say that I don't see him having "lost", or you having "won". We're exactly where we were three years ago.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:21 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
EMTP wrote:Every time you've argued fact with me, you've lost, and this is no exception. Your ability to keep typing and pressing "Submit" does not mean we are still debating. It's over. You lost.


This is a very arrogant assumption, and as a third party, I can say that I don't see him having "lost", or you having "won". We're exactly where we were three years ago.


I'm not referencing the entirety of the debate; I'm talking about the two specific assertions he made (you can't call them arguments; there was never any evidence): one, that when the British ended their occupation Palestine was stateless and belonged to whomever had the power to seize it; two, the Zionism wasn't a colonial enterprise. He lost those points, badly, and simply wasn't able to put together a single link to a single source, instead free associating about what he thought certain words ought to mean.

I say I won not in a spirit of triumph -- the opposition was not of a quality to leave me bursting with pride at having handed him his ass. Honestly, you can look at the discussion and think whatever you like. I supported my argument with sources; he didn't, and doesn't want to try. So I'm done engaging him; his childish, whiny rambling does nothing to advance the discussion.

I was reading back in the thread and say an interesting post that I had missed:

mosc wrote:Zionist: A person who thinks there should be a Jewish state in the area (and including at least in part) of the City of Jerusalem. Modern Zionism, which led to the modern state of Israel dates back to the late 19th century and was a semi-secular movement. Theodor Herzl's position gave a more coherent voice to the movement in 1897. It was supported by many non-jewish European leaders wanting to relocate culturally distinct sections of their population out of their countries.

Zionists are NOT defined as:
1) All Jews
2) Violent
3) Anti-Arab
4) Anti-Palestinian State
5) Supporters of the modern day state of Israel
6) Demons with horns who drink the blood of Children


I was nodding along to most of this; extra points for recognizing that Zionism allied itself with European anti-Semites to pursue their common goal of getting the Jews out of Europe; most Zionists don't admit to that history. ;)
Please stop using the word Zionist like it implies some kind of Villain bent on warmongering. Herzl wanted to encourage peaceful migration of Jews from Europe to Ottoman Palestine, not displacing arabs or the removal of "Palestinians*".


Well, no. Hertzl did want to displace Palestinians; I quoted the relevant passage a ways up:

“Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

--Theodore Herzl, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

That's pretty clear.

*Note: the term "Palestinian" has no historical meaning implying a Muslim group that far back.


No, not quite. You can see the beginning of Palestinian nationalism in the journal "Filastine" which started publication in 1911. But it is certainly true that Palestinian nationalism is largely a creation of the 20th century -- that is not at all the same as saying the Palestinian people or their right to the land only came into being in the 20th century.

All and all, I disagree with a lot of this, but guys? This is what someone who has read an actual book or two about the history sounds like. Take a note.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:36 pm UTC

What is this 'book' thing EMTP speaks of?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What is this 'book' thing EMTP speaks of?


It appears to be a primative form of internet. Lacks pictures of cats. Do not reccomend.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:05 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What is this 'book' thing EMTP speaks of?


It's like a collection of webpages made out of wood. They were apparently crafted in combat with a weapon far deadlier that spears or swords; the pen, which was like a mouse without the scroll button, in the long long ago.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:09 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.


You're entitled to your opinion. Since I offered evidence and sources, and BM offered only whining and excuses, it wasn't a productive discussion, regardless. I put the beat down on him pretty good, in actual fact.

Here's another link for the interested:
Settler colonialism is a specific colonial formation whereby foreign family units move into a region and reproduce. An imperial power oversees the immigration of these settlers who consent, often only temporarily, to government by that authority. This colonization leads, by a variety means, to depopulation of the previous inhabitants, and the settlers take over the land left vacant by the previous residents. Unlike other forms of colonialism, the "colonizing authority" (the imperial power) is not always the same nationality as the "colonizing workforce" (the settlers) in cases of settler colonialism. The settlers are, however, generally viewed by the colonizing authority as racially superior to the previous inhabitants, giving their social movements and political demands greater legitimacy than those of colonized peoples in the eyes of the home government.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_co ... iddle_East
Last edited by EMTP on Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:13 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:09 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.


You're entitled to your opinion. Since I offered evidence and sources, and BM offered only whining and excuses, it wasn't a productive discussion, regardless. I put the beat down on him pretty good, in actual fact.


Danth's Law?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:17 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
EMTP wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.


You're entitled to your opinion. Since I offered evidence and sources, and BM offered only whining and excuses, it wasn't a productive discussion, regardless. I put the beat down on him pretty good, in actual fact.


Danth's Law?


Yawn.

This is classic of the quality of much of the opposition here; rather than facts, they want to argue with internet memes. Childish and unpersuasive (1).

Try sources, facts, references if you want to argue. And I'm not having an argument about whether I won an argument. That's silly. Think what you want; if you want to deny the existence of Zionist colonists, past or present, that's your prerogative. Debating the terms we use to describe what happened is a distraction from what actually happened.

--------------------------------------------
1.
As an internet discussion grows and grows, it's often tempting to declare victory and move on, especially if you've rammed the point home too many times and your opponent just ignores everything you say. In this case, declaring victory and moving on may be legitimate and excusable.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Danth%27s_Law
Last edited by EMTP on Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:29 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:18 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
EMTP wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.


You're entitled to your opinion. Since I offered evidence and sources, and BM offered only whining and excuses, it wasn't a productive discussion, regardless. I put the beat down on him pretty good, in actual fact.


Danth's Law?


Yawn.

This is classic of the quality of the opposition here; rather than facts, they want to argue with internet memes. Childish and unpersuasive.


Cohen's Law.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:26 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
EMTP wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
EMTP wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Nah, I think you're the only one here impressed or convinced by your self-proclaimed victories. And I say that as someone who come down on the same side as you. Your assertions of "colonialism" in particular make you look like a buffoon, not a rhetorician.


You're entitled to your opinion. Since I offered evidence and sources, and BM offered only whining and excuses, it wasn't a productive discussion, regardless. I put the beat down on him pretty good, in actual fact.


Danth's Law?


Yawn.

This is classic of the quality of the opposition here; rather than facts, they want to argue with internet memes. Childish and unpersuasive.


Cohen's Law.


Yawn. Not even going to look that one up. Two posts in by the same poster in a row ignoring the facts and consisting entirely of Internet in-jokes: the sign of a failed argument. EMTP's law. :lol:
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:10 am UTC

EMTP's Law: Anyone arguing that everyone but themselves is ignoring the facts is in fact ignoring the facts.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:14 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:EMTP's Law: Anyone arguing that everyone but themselves is ignoring the facts is in fact ignoring the facts.


Not everyone, CU. Where did I say everyone? Big-time straw man argument there. That's not a newfangled internet psuedofallacy -- that's one of the classics. :roll:

What about people who think their own views are reflective of what "everyone" thinks? Should we name that one for you?
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:22 am UTC

What's the law for people arguing about semantics? Quite sure there is a law along the lines of 'anyone arguing about some minor detail while ignoring the bigger picture is wrong'.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vahir » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:25 am UTC

Corrupt, stop pulling EMTP's hair! EMTP, give corrupt his doll back! So help me god, I will pull this thread around!

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:58 am UTC

You win the thread! No you win the thread! Everyone wins the thread!
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:11 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What's the law for people arguing about semantics? Quite sure there is a law along the lines of 'anyone arguing about some minor detail while ignoring the bigger picture is wrong'.


Have you been paying attention at all? I didn't want to have an argument about semantics, and I've been saying at every opportunity that the behavior matters more than the term used to describe it. I explained, when challenged, why I thought the word choice was appropriate and exactly what I meant by it. As I've said several times now, this devolved into a semantic discussion because BM did not like how the factual discussion went.

I would quite like to get back to the bigger picture. Since in your last five posts you manage not even to reference Israel or Palestine, perhaps you could take your own advice show us all how it's done.

Vahir wrote:Corrupt, stop pulling EMTP's hair! EMTP, give corrupt his doll back! So help me god, I will pull this thread around!


Exactly. No argument here.

This is an interesting article on the continuing efforts of brave Zionists to fight terrorism:
To understand the controversy engulfing the Santiago-based soccer club, it is first worth knowing that there is no country in the Western world with a closer connection to the Palestinian territories than Chile. With over half a million residents of Palestinian origin, Chile was the primary destination for those fleeing the Middle East both before and during the wars that surrounded the founding of the state of Israel in 1948.

In 1920, Palestinian émigrés started a soccer club to rally around called Palestino. (The club’s creation in 1920 is a rather inconvenient truth for a segment of Israeli hardliners who claim that a Palestinian identity did not exist until decades after Israel’s founding.)

Over the last ninety-four years, Palestino has represented the Palestinian national colors, held moments of silence during periods when the Gaza Strip was being bombed and engaged in numerous charitable efforts to alleviate the suffering of refugees. It is a team that has consciously positioned themselves over the years as a symbol of historic remembrance. In line with this history, they changed the number 1 on their uniforms to look like the shape of historic Palestine and the uniting of the current Israeli and Palestinian territories.

It is for this that the team was charged by the Simon Wiesenthal Center with “fomenting terrorist intent.” Gabriel Zaliasnik, the former president of the Chilean Jewish Organization, said that the shirt incites “violence and hatred” and has pledged go to FIFA to get them banned.


http://www.thenation.com/blog/177943/is ... cer-jersey

So, interesting on a number of levels. For one thing, on a personal note, I've read a lot of history and analysis of the conflict, and I had no idea there were half a million Palestinians in Chile! That's amazing. I'm going to have to read about this some more.

I highlighted the portion that pertains to the claim that there were no Palestinians until (whatever late date). Obviously if they have a soccer team by 1920, the Palestinian identity has existed for some time by then.

The Zionist reaction is sadly predictable. The equation of the history of Palestine with “violence and hatred” -- presumably via the tortured logic that asserting the Palestinians' nation rights will lead to violence, and only hatred of Jews would lead Palestinians to contemplate resisting them -- would be merely silly if it were not pursued with such vicious and single-minded intolerance.

The issue of Palestinian "incitement" comes up periodically -- there was an NYT article about it recently (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/world ... nians.html) and while some of the things they cite as evidence are genuinely bad, they also consider something like a soccer jersey with a picture of Palestine on it "incitement" to violence and hatred. So if you take such charges seriously, you'd be well advised to look hard at the details of what they are calling incitement.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:25 am UTC


Since this thread reignited, I have gotten more reports from it than in many months previous about all other threads combine. I can't be bothered to read this thread as it currently goes, let alone decide whose nasty insults are worse than par for the course.

If enough people really want a polite thread on this topic, I might consider moderating it again. If so, send me a PM that includes an argument why this thread is not doomed to pointless fights, but could actually improve to the high (ahem) level of regular N&A discussions.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby EMTP » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:16 pm UTC

The Economist is reporting on increasing support among the Palestinian citizens of Israel for the (still largely reviled) Israeli right-wing proposal to transfer them by drawing the border such that their communities end up on the Palestinian side. One third supported the idea in a recent poll:

Many reasons have been aired. Israel’s policy of letting its Arab, but not its Jewish, citizens holiday and work in the West Bank’s Palestinian cities has strengthened ties between Arabs on both sides of the current border. And some of Israel’s secular Arabs are keen to shed their Islamists, whose wellspring lies in Wadi Ara, part of the area Mr Lieberman wants to swap.

But the main reason Israel’s 1.7m Arabs increasingly identify with Palestine is the mounting rejection they face in Israel. Mr Lieberman’s dreams of casting them off and Mr Netanyahu’s drive for global recognition of Israel as a specifically Jewish state are alienating many of the more than 20% of Israelis who are Arabs.

This growing sense of ostracism has been reinforced by actions. Israel’s national bus carrier skirts Arab towns while serving Jewish outposts. The government builds industrial zones for Jewish towns but rarely for Arab ones. Though signposts are in Arabic as well as Hebrew, they are often spelt wrong. “We thought we were citizens in a democracy,” says Makbula Nassar, a fiery broadcaster on Radio Shams, an Arabic radio station in Israel. “Despite decades of dispossession, communal violence was minimal. But we discovered that we were always considered the enemy.” An Arab dentist in an Israeli hospital sees his hopes of coexistence wither, as the conflict that was largely about territory turns religious. An Arab lawyer fears her lifetime of trying to integrate into Israel will be worthless. “I’m an expert in Israeli law. How will I practise in Palestine?” (1)


Since the days of Hertzl, part of the Zionist dream has been to make life so unpleasant for non-Jews that they will go elsewhere. This has mostly been unsuccessful (with the exception of outright terrorism and mass expulsions), partly because Palestinians have nowhere to go. But perhaps Israel's racist society is making progress in convincing non-Jews to look for an exit.

----------------------

1. http://www.economist.com/news/middle-ea ... ound-might
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

This whole thing is gross1. I'll unlock it whenever I figure out why it's generating lots of reports and figure out what to do about it. Or if Hawknc unlocks it first. Or if someone can convince Zamfir that you'll be civil. I don't see that last one happening any time soon.

1Ha ha.. measurement humor.

At any rate, if you've got a problem with the lock, talk to me about it. In the meantime, I'll be reading this thread.

*edit* As a bonus, whenever someone insults another poster, either directly or indirectly, I'm going to take a shot of beer.

I expect to be dead of alcohol poisoning before I make it two pages.

*edit edit* Can you people not go more than three posts without insulting each others intelligence? Really?


I'm really starting to think that banning anyone who posted in the last couple of pages would improve the quality of the forums overall.
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Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby Paul in Saudi » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:37 am UTC

MERGED

Extremists have gotten what they have worked so hard to achieve. They have tricked the public into calling for war. The politicians are going along of course. After the killing of three young settlers, the Israeli launched punitive airstrikes. At the same time, they were looking for the people who actually did the crime. (They have now been found.)

The Israelis are mobilizing for even bigger things. Rockets come in one way (and mostly miss, but not for lack of trying), airplanes go the other way. We cannot say for sure what the future holds, but it will not be good. The only winners will be the undertakers. In a year or two, we will look back on early 2014 as a golden age of peace and cooperation in the region.

The political forces conspire for short-term gain and never push for long-term peace. Both sides have been hijacked by crazy people. The populations view themselves in endless war. (Probably because they are in a seemingly endless war.) Read the comments in the Israeli and Arab press, even "normal" people are baying for blood like brutes. Lives are traded back and forth like so many poker chips in a bloody game.

I am not a pacifist. I have fought. I am all for killing people who need killing. I am all for war if it serves a purpose. What will this solve? The two sides will bash each other for months and then settle back into a cold peace. Nothing will change.

Grumble.

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Re: Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby yedidyak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:39 am UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote: the Israeli launched punitive airstrikes. At the same time, they were looking for the people who actually did the crime. (They have now been found.)


Not actually true. They have yet to be located, though they have been identified. And Israel quite deliberately separated the reaction in the WB and Gaza, any airstrike was in response to rockets.

We had 70 rockets here in an hour last night. 30 in ten minutes. And not just short range ones that have been bombarding Sderot and all the towns near Gaza, but longer range ones reaching cities all over Southern Israel. Hamas are promising to hit Tel Aviv any minute.

If you look at the Israeli government response it is clear that they have been trying to avoid a war in Gaza. Yesterday the governing party even split in two over Netanyahu's reluctance to strike hard. meanwhile the Hamas military leadership has been promising full scale war.

By the way, while the rockets mostly miss, and the ones that are going to land in major cities are mostly shot down, as you say that's not for lack of trying. Israeli airstrikes on the other hand are aimed mostly at open training grounds or concealed launchers. There were 50 last night and no Hamas fatalities. With precision weapons, that shows that they weren't aimed for casualties.

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Re: Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby Crissa » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:40 am UTC

Punitive strikes are a war crime.

-Crissa

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Re: Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby yedidyak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:44 am UTC

Crissa wrote:Punitive strikes are a war crime.


Who's doing punitive strikes? Last night Israel bombed some rocket launchers, weapons caches, and command posts. Two command posts were in residential houses, so they warned the residents first.

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Re: Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:26 am UTC


OK, I'll unlock the I/P thread for a while. If it becomes a headache for me, it will get closed again. I expect the headache. Please, prove me wrong.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Paul in Saudi » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:30 am UTC

(I am sorry if I violated some sort of ceasefire by bringing up this subject. The news right now is just terribly sad.)

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:05 pm UTC

... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vahir » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:15 pm UTC

I think we can all agree that the murders of both the palestinian and the israelis are equally detestable, and that the killers need to be brought to justice.

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Re: Israel/Palestine Heats Up

Postby Crissa » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:51 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Who's doing punitive strikes? Last night Israel bombed some rocket launchers, weapons caches, and command posts. Two command posts were in residential houses, so they warned the residents first.

Yeah. That's not what's happening, though.

The rocket launchers are backpacks and cars in residential parking lots.

The weapon caches and command posts are police stations and apartments.

There is literally no way to confirm these as valid war-time targets.

They're just blowing up shit to punish the Palestinian people for choosing the wrong political party. Remember, Israel holds the purse strings to all aid; they hold the borders both internal and international; and they refused to accept any negotiation with Hamas, the rightfully elected party.

So remind me again why Hamas shouldn't throw rockets (that btw kill no one) back at Israel? The latter refuses to negotiate with them.

-Crissa

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:08 pm UTC

Crissa wrote:So remind me again why Hamas shouldn't throw rockets (that btw kill no one) back at Israel? The latter refuses to negotiate with them.
Can we not fabricate positions whole cloth here, please, for like... a few posts?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby addams » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Crissa wrote:So remind me again why Hamas shouldn't throw rockets (that btw kill no one) back at Israel? The latter refuses to negotiate with them.
Can we not fabricate positions whole cloth here, please, for like... a few posts?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:30 pm UTC

I think it's a really boring road of trying to foolishly binarize this issue by exaggerating things. Rockets do in fact kill Israeli's (and if they haven't in two years, so what? That's like saying it's fine for me to shoot your home because I mostly miss your bedroom). Israel has in fact negotiated with Hamas, albeit mostly through indirectly, as after all, 'Hamas doesn't negotiate with Israel'.

So you tell me addams, what was the question?
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