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US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:27 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Brought to you by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life:

http://www.columnfivemedia.com/infographic-for-good-the-almighty-dollar/?display=wide

All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:42 pm UTC
by Zamfir
I there a reason why a graph on religions has to have separate categories for black Christians and white Christians?

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:45 pm UTC
by Nemiro
I think that it would also be interesting to know what the average income of those in the $100,000+ bracket is for each religion, ie. What is the average wage of a $100,000+ Jew, vs. a $100,000+ Catholic. It's all very well saying that 45% of Jews earn more than $100,000, but if they all earn $100,001 while the small(er) number of Catholics in the bracket earn $300,000, it's... I dunno, I'm just interested to know.

As for Zamfir's point... possibly there were large disparities shown when surveying, so they thought they'd split it.. to.. I don't really know why. Substantial differences in services? /grasps at straws

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:56 pm UTC
by iop
tzvibish wrote:All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

I'd say that Hindus are doing even better.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:04 pm UTC
by Ulc
Personally I say "Along with people rounding pi to 3, there is a special hell for people making graphs look fancy in a way that hides information"

I mean, that is the point of making it look so fancy when it makes it so hard to look properly at.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:09 pm UTC
by Zamfir
iop wrote:
tzvibish wrote:All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

I'd say that Hindus are doing even better.


Not really. A lot of Indians get to the US on visa where "earning loads of money" is a requisite to even get the visum.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:10 pm UTC
by Dauric
Ulc wrote:Personally I say "Along with people rounding pi to 3, there is a special hell for people making graphs look fancy in a way that hides information"

I mean, that is the point of making it look so fancy when it makes it so hard to look properly at.


Agreement. It's hard to know if someone's just being dense and artsy, or if they're deliberately trying to hide something.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:12 pm UTC
by Lewton
Zamfir wrote:
iop wrote:
tzvibish wrote:All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

I'd say that Hindus are doing even better.


Not really. A lot of Indians get to the US on visa where "earning loads of money" is a requisite to even get the visum.


That doesn't change, that going by that chart, the Hindus seem to be doing better

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:09 pm UTC
by tehmikey
I am in agreement with the statement that artsy graphs are aimed at hiding information, and it is odd to bring race into the chart.

In an equation about only religion, they found a way to insert race. Also, I find it silly that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not listed as Christian.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:23 pm UTC
by Diadem
tehmikey wrote:I am in agreement with the statement that artsy graphs are aimed at hiding information, and it is odd to bring race into the chart.

In an equation about only religion, they found a way to insert race. Also, I find it silly that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not listed as Christian.

Christianity being the largest religion, they split it into several subgroups. Catholic, orthodox, protestant, etc. Only a few of them are marked as 'christian'. I suppose it's assumed that everybody knows the other groups are.

edit: Then again, the graph is a mess. Wtf is 'mainline'. I've never seen that term before. Do they mean protestant? Because that group seems to be missing. Except that evangelical, Jehovah's Witnesses and 'historically black churches' are also protestant. And mormons too, I believe? Not sure there.

What falls under 'other christian' and what under 'other'. Those groups can't be that big. How many Zoroastrians are there in the US?

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:49 pm UTC
by Le1bn1z
Why are we caring about this again?

For most of these religions, guaging success by way of material success would constitute an Epic Fail.

And yes, I know some do anyway. Doesn't negate the Epic Fail.

Also, anyone else like that the "other" looks like a wonky spaceship?

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:58 pm UTC
by Dauric
Diadem wrote:edit: Then again, the graph is a mess. Wtf is 'mainline'.


Christians that inject their faith directly in to a major vein?

(Wikipedia suggests it's Protestantism)

It really is an appalling and utterly meaningless data-set.

Le1bn1z wrote:Also, anyone else like that the "other" looks like a wonky spaceship?


Yeah.. I think that's the point really.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:55 pm UTC
by Silas
Zamfir wrote:I there a reason why a graph on religions has to have separate categories for black Christians and white Christians?

It doesn't. It has a special category for historically-black churches. It's a grouping that's not exactly homogenous, but is aesthetically and liturgically distintive.

Diadem wrote:[Wtf is 'mainline'. I've never seen that term before. Do they mean protestant? Because that group seems to be missing. Except that evangelical, Jehovah's Witnesses and 'historically black churches' are also protestant. And mormons too, I believe? Not sure there.

Mainline means classic protestant. Look for an order-of-service that mimics the Catholic Mass, consubstantiative communion, moderate local autonomy, and the standard Bible, without the apocrypha. The biggest mainline churches I know off the top of my head are the Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Episcopalians.

Evangelical churches aren't mainline because of their alternative worship structure, strong independence, and much more lay-leadership. Strict textual literalism and, er, applied continuationism are also non-mainline traits.

Jehovah's Witnesses I don't know terribly much about, but their centralized organization keeps them out of the mainline group. Mormons are excluded because they have additional scriptures, beyond the classic Bible (and a strong centralized organization).

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:53 pm UTC
by aleflamedyud
tzvibish wrote:Brought to you by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life:

http://www.columnfivemedia.com/infographic-for-good-the-almighty-dollar/?display=wide

All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Not go us. The main reason American Jews are so wealthy is because our demographics skew way, way older than most other Americans. Of course, that then gets into the issues of which kids get counted as Jews when they're not the child of two Jews and all that shite about our changing self-definition and oh fuck it can we go back to being rich?

Go Hindus, btw.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:52 pm UTC
by tzvibish
aleflamedyud wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Brought to you by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life:

http://www.columnfivemedia.com/infographic-for-good-the-almighty-dollar/?display=wide

All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Not go us. The main reason American Jews are so wealthy is because our demographics skew way, way older than most other Americans. Of course, that then gets into the issues of which kids get counted as Jews when they're not the child of two Jews and all that shite about our changing self-definition and oh fuck it can we go back to being rich?

Go Hindus, btw.


I would think that this was a voluntary thing. If I report myself to be a Jew, then I'm a Jew. From an outside perspective, which the Pew forum is, your religion is whatever you say it is. The numbers are skewed for many reasons and for all religions, and I don't think the Pew Forum was trying to make a case for the exact numbers, but for the general disparity between a certain few religions and everyone else.

Also, I was looking at the top 46% for my "go jews" comment. In the end, you're right, the Hindus probably do have more actual income.

This appealed to me mainly because I've lived my entire life under the stereotype that all jews are rich. Unfortunately, that stereotype never really applied to me, so it was annoying. In fact, when the subject came up recently in conversation and i gave my canned response of "I wish I was part of that stereotype", the response was "Don't worry, you will be".

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:06 pm UTC
by BlackSails
aleflamedyud wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Brought to you by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life:

http://www.columnfivemedia.com/infographic-for-good-the-almighty-dollar/?display=wide

All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Not go us. The main reason American Jews are so wealthy is because our demographics skew way, way older than most other Americans.


Also the % of people going to college and such.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:27 pm UTC
by aleflamedyud
I would think that this was a voluntary thing. If I report myself to be a Jew, then I'm a Jew. From an outside perspective, which the Pew forum is, your religion is whatever you say it is.

Which supports my statements about age. Young people are less religious, and in the case of Jews more assimilated and more likely to be non-Jewish products of intermarriage (ie: have Jewish parent and Christian parent and chose secular humanism). So there's some (large, I think) group of young people who choose not to call themselves Jews, thereby skewing the demographics for self-declared Jews in favor of the old folks who call themselves Jews no matter what they believe.

Most young Jews, born or self-declared, whom I know don't actually have all that Jew-gold. They do go to college in larger numbers, but they take on debt to do so like everyone else.

The Catholics face a similar situation: born Catholics in America are now quite likely to call themselves secular, so the demographics for self-declared Catholics skew old.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:27 pm UTC
by tzvibish
aleflamedyud wrote:
I would think that this was a voluntary thing. If I report myself to be a Jew, then I'm a Jew. From an outside perspective, which the Pew forum is, your religion is whatever you say it is.

Which supports my statements about age. Young people are less religious, and in the case of Jews more assimilated and more likely to be non-Jewish products of intermarriage (ie: have Jewish parent and Christian parent and chose secular humanism). So there's some (large, I think) group of young people who choose not to call themselves Jews, thereby skewing the demographics for self-declared Jews in favor of the old folks who call themselves Jews no matter what they believe.

Most young Jews, born or self-declared, whom I know don't actually have all that Jew-gold. They do go to college in larger numbers, but they take on debt to do so like everyone else.

The Catholics face a similar situation: born Catholics in America are now quite likely to call themselves secular, so the demographics for self-declared Catholics skew old.


I'd actually like to see the numbers on something like that. I think you'd be surprised.

Oh, and all the Jew gold is in the banks, which the Jews control.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:02 am UTC
by zealo
the numbers are a little hard to make out, but do 'other' and 'unafiliated' (politicly correct way to say atheist?) match the national average exactly?

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:18 am UTC
by Hawknc
It amuses me slightly that Buddhists earn more than the majority of other religions on that list, given the focus away from material possessions. I suppose you'd have to overlay charitable donations to see who's actually keeping the money they earn.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:42 am UTC
by Zamfir
Hawknc wrote:It amuses me slightly that Buddhists earn more than the majority of other religions on that list, given the focus away from material possessions. I suppose you'd have to overlay charitable donations to see who's actually keeping the money they earn.

A focus away from material possessions is also at the core of Christianity.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:35 pm UTC
by Dauric
Zamfir wrote:
Hawknc wrote:It amuses me slightly that Buddhists earn more than the majority of other religions on that list, given the focus away from material possessions. I suppose you'd have to overlay charitable donations to see who's actually keeping the money they earn.

A focus away from material possessions is also at the core of Christianity.


That explains the necessity for "Sunday Best", and those lavish churches, and expensive suits......

Yes there are people who adhere to Asceticism. However as core it may supposedly be this is far from the way Christianity has been practiced by-in-large.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:54 am UTC
by kingofdreams
the caricatured places of worship are darling (I like how the unaffliated get a house)

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:44 am UTC
by Uffh
Man. I bet that top ~45% of Hindus all live in the SF Bay Area.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:26 am UTC
by sje46
I want to know how much atheists and agnostics make. I don't know wtf "other" and "unaffiliated" constitute.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:37 pm UTC
by tzvibish
I imagine the Hindu sections involves a good portion of the Indian presence in the engineering, IT, and medical fields. At least where I am, the State University is filled with indian graduate students, and the IT departments all over the city are full of H1B Visa engineers who don't speak English.

I don't have a problem with this. In fact, their work ethic in general puts me to shame. I just think that's where the numbers come from.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:46 pm UTC
by Goldstein
tzvibish wrote:All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Le1bn1z wrote:For most of these religions, guaging success by way of material success would constitute an Epic Fail.

I really don't think the goal here is to point out who's "winning", though I'll admit I was more certain of that before I knew people looked at it that way.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:15 pm UTC
by Godskalken
Goldstein wrote:
tzvibish wrote:All I have to say is "Go Jews!"

Le1bn1z wrote:For most of these religions, guaging success by way of material success would constitute an Epic Fail.

I really don't think the goal here is to point out who's "winning", though I'll admit I was more certain of that before I knew people looked at it that way.

Excactly. Isn't saying "go jews" here a bit like saying "go whites" upon realizing whites make more than other ethnic groups? It's not a competition. And, in my opinion, the skewedness of such a graph is a sign that something is wrong.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:21 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Ok, I wasn't making a superiority claim or anything. I thought it was an interesting statistic, and I added a facetious quip at the end of it.

most of the numbers can be explained away easily, and it isn't making any kind of revelatory claim about one religion's value over the other. It's just interesting.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:56 pm UTC
by sje46
I don't want Jews to be more successful than protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, or Satanists in any endevour. I want everyone to be equal.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
by aleflamedyud
sje46 wrote:I don't want Jews to be more successful than protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, or Satanists in any endevour. I want everyone to be equal.

Equal outcomes is bull. Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:07 am UTC
by MrEmu
aleflamedyud wrote:
sje46 wrote: Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

Except in politics, but thats a rage for another time

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:25 am UTC
by aleflamedyud
MrEmu wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
sje46 wrote: Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

Except in politics, but thats a rage for another time

Well fortunately in politics you subject yourself to the arbitrary prejudices and views of the people.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:28 am UTC
by Godskalken
aleflamedyud wrote:
sje46 wrote:I don't want Jews to be more successful than protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, or Satanists in any endevour. I want everyone to be equal.

Equal outcomes is bull. Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

[citation needed]

If nothing else, the fact that the graph is currently skewed means it will keep beings skewed because of the massive advantage of being born rich compared to being born poor.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:29 am UTC
by Outchanter
There's more than one way to raise an average. For example: line up all atheists in order of wealth and kill the poorest 80%. Instant per capita wealth increase!

Another way is by selective immigration. Immigration laws are usually designed to attract either skills or wealth into a country, so recent (legal) immigrants are likely to be above average in at least one of these.

And then there are cases where immigration and death interact, for example when escaping genocides. It was much easier for someone like Einstein to move to the USA and escape the Nazis than it would have been for a poor Jewish tailor in some Polish shtetl.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:18 am UTC
by Sharlos
Godskalken wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
sje46 wrote:I don't want Jews to be more successful than protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, or Satanists in any endevour. I want everyone to be equal.

Equal outcomes is bull. Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

[citation needed]

If nothing else, the fact that the graph is currently skewed means it will keep beings skewed because of the massive advantage of being born rich compared to being born poor.

Yes, but not because of a disadvantage relating to what religion they have. This graph just seems to reveal how different ethnicities/groups of people all share a religion and pass it on to their children (as well as their current state of wealth).

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:31 pm UTC
by theyranos
I stumbled on this thread while googling for something else.

I feel it's worth pointing out that the same study exists in a less obfuscated version.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:39 pm UTC
by Goldstein
If they'd made the width (Height? I'm assuming they're laid down) of those bars be proportional to the size of the group they represent, it'd be even better.

There is nothing I would like more.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:46 pm UTC
by theyranos
Well, if you're that interested they do provide enough information that you could adjust their graph yourself in gimp if you had the inclination/time. Me, I only really have time to post here during compiles.

Re: US Income Distribution By Religion

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:20 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
That additional information somewhat illuminates the originally posted picture, as well. For example, the reported number of Hindus in their affiliation poll is rather tiny, and so pretty much nothing whatsoever should be concluded from the income distribution within that small group.

aleflamedyud wrote:Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and Satanists have the same opportunities in America.

Yeah, if you're going to claim there is no religious discrimination in America, especially against such as animists and Satanists, you're going to need to provide evidence of some kind for that claim.