Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

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Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Lazar » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:38 pm UTC

From the AP. Basically, people who sign organ donor cards will be given priority if they need a transplant.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby phillipsjk » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:59 pm UTC

In most cases, if you are a candidate for a transplant, you can be kept alive for several months or even years. What prevents people from simply signing their donor card when they need one? A organ from a sick patient may not be suitable for transplantation (a big source of organs is car crashes).
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

phillipsjk wrote:In most cases, if you are a candidate for a transplant, you can be kept alive for several months or even years. What prevents people from simply signing their donor card when they need one? A organ from a sick patient may not be suitable for transplantation (a big source of organs is car crashes).


That is a potential kink in the system(the sign after illness) but it seems worth the risk of that kind of abuse to implement this.

Overall this sounds like a very good idea; barring any strange reason this doesn't work I entirely support.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Aetius » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:12 am UTC

include something in the algorithm that weights position by how long they've been registered as an organ donor.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:17 am UTC

Aetius wrote:include something in the algorithm that weights position by how long they've been registered as an organ donor.


Except you also need it to diminish later. As sad as it is that you have to choose, a 20 year old donor for two years (or a non-donor, given the extremeness of this example) should probably get a heart before an 80 year old who's been registered for sixty.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby phlip » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:47 am UTC

Sure, but an 80-year-old who's been an organ donor for 60 years could get a weighting over an 80-year-old who signed up as an organ donor while on the waiting list... who would only get a negligible bump over an 80-year-old who never signed up as an organ donor at all... even if they're still all beaten by a 20-year-old who never signed up.

So sure, keep all the other factors that are already there... age, lifestyle, existant health risks... just add length-of-time-as-organ-donor in as well, with appropriate weighting.

That way, it's not encouraging people to become organ donors when they need a donation (and thus would probably be ineligible as donors anyway)... but rather encourages people to sign up while they're still healthy. Call it Pascal's Insurance Policy.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby BlackSails » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:10 am UTC

The list should be ranked by need/age/overall health first, and organ donor status as a tie breaker.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:31 pm UTC

Ah, the old "Who deserves to live more" quandary. Things always get a little touchy when you start assigning values to lives.

Morally, this is probably a good idea. Logically, too. It's like people paying taxes and getting priority on public services. Practically, though, like in public services, this opens up a can of worms. Especially in Israel, you're going to have a slew of people protesting this for religious reasons. Why should people who, for religious reasons, can't become organ donors, get pushed out of the line?

I smell some serious religious discrimination conflicts here.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Why should people who, for religious reasons, can't become organ donors, get pushed out of the line?


Because they're following a bullshit religion, and in this day and age, should know better. What about "sanctity of life" or whatever the equivalent idea is in that particular religion? Surely that takes precedence over whatever completely arbitrary teaching says you can't donate your innards when you've stopped using them? Surely saving a person's life is more important than having all your corpse's bits intact, when that corpse is just going to rot or be incinerated anyway?

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Back on topic, I think this is a pretty good idea. If there's some incentive to sign up on the organ doner register, then a LOT more lives can be saved in hospitals. However, I don't think it's as good as simply making organ donation an opt-out system. Most people aren't registered organ doners because they "haven't gotten around to it yet". I know, because I'm one of them. Whenever I think about it, I'm not in a position to do anything about it.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:17 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Why should people who, for religious reasons, can't become organ donors, get pushed out of the line?


Because they're following a bullshit religion, and in this day and age, should know better. What about "sanctity of life" or whatever the equivalent idea is in that particular religion? Surely that takes precedence over whatever completely arbitrary teaching says you can't donate your innards when you've stopped using them? Surely saving a person's life is more important than having all your corpse's bits intact, when that corpse is just going to rot or be incinerated anyway?



Because in this day and age, we know religion is false.

Also, many religions believe in a "sanctity of death" as well as a sanctity of life. Last time I checked, I didn't think we only respected religions that we agreed with.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Why should people who, for religious reasons, can't become organ donors, get pushed out of the line?


Because they're following a bullshit religion, and in this day and age, should know better. What about "sanctity of life" or whatever the equivalent idea is in that particular religion? Surely that takes precedence over whatever completely arbitrary teaching says you can't donate your innards when you've stopped using them? Surely saving a person's life is more important than having all your corpse's bits intact, when that corpse is just going to rot or be incinerated anyway?



Because in this day and age, we know religion is false.

I meant because in this day and age, we can actually do some good with the organs of the deceased, whereas we couldn't hundreds of years ago.

Also, many religions believe in a "sanctity of death" as well as a sanctity of life. Last time I checked, I didn't think we only respected religions that we agreed with.


Again, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a religion that places "santity of death" at higher importance than "santity of life".
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Accipiter » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:35 pm UTC

I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid. If a rule is important then you shouldn't take actions which require others to break the rule.
(And respecting the rules of religions... On second thought, i think I won't open this can of worms)

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Texas_Ben » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:42 pm UTC

I don't really know much about religions other than Christianity, but do any of them explicitly say you can't be organ donors? I mean my dad isn't one and claims it's for religious reasons but I know he's full of shit because I know plenty of other christians who are.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:46 pm UTC

]
SlyReaper wrote:
Again, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a religion that places "santity of death" at higher importance than "santity of life".


higher importance? Maybe not.

But that doesn't mean you can just do what you want with it. Is it so hard to believe that there would be be some kind of instruction on how to treat a body in a belief system that believes in an afterlife? That maybe doesn't belong to you after you leave it, and that it's not up to you to decide how to distribute the remains?

But all that isn't even important. This could be compared to a situation where an employer would give certain benefits to workers who worked on the Jewish Sabbath. It's not life and death, but it's the same principle. It may help your productivity on weekends, but if a portion of people are affected by it because their religion doesn't allow them to work on Saturdays, it's grounds for discrimination. And just to clarify, if you gave the Sabbath-observant employees opportunity to receive the same benefits in another way, you likely won't get sued over it. The problem with the donor situation is that you are completely blocking out anyone who can't donate organs from getting bumped up. And to take this out of religion, what if you can't donate because you aren't eligible? It's the same problem.

Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid. If a rule is important then you shouldn't take actions which require others to break the rule.
(And respecting the rules of religions... On second thought, i think I won't open this can of worms)


It's not a double standard. It's one thing to not want to give your organs away. It's another thing to accept one from someone who already gave it. The only offense might be that you're supporting the practice, but at least in Judasim, the laws of Judaism apply to Jews and not to anyone else (and this is Israel we're talking about). So, if you want to donate, go for it. Nobody's complaining.

(I can't know for sure, but the fact that this is happening in Israel leads me to believe that the Knesset isn't being religiously colorblind about all this. This very well may be a snub to the Charedi population, and it wouldn't shock me in the least.)
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:08 pm UTC

Ah, this affects me directly, since I already do have an Adi donor card, because dead men need no organs and they can feed my body to the dogs after I kick the bucket for all I care.
If I read this correctly, the preferential treatment kicks in one year after you get your donor card, which should be enough incentive to become a donor asap instead of waiting until your organs fail. All in all, anything that makes more people to stop hogging their delicious organs and donate is an improvement.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:11 pm UTC

Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid.

Then I too will be frank: it would behoove you to read a little bit before making claims that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
The evil rabbinical council of old bearded dudes decided something like 10 years ago that organ donation was a mitzvah, and kosher according to the precepts of the Talmud.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Decker » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:14 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:From the AP. Basically, people who sign organ donor cards will be given priority if they need a transplant.

What's the golden rule in this case? "Put into others what you would have them put into you?"
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:22 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid.

Then I too will be frank: it would behoove you to read a little bit before making claims that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
The evil rabbinical council of old bearded dudes decided something like 10 years ago that organ donation was a mitzvah, and kosher according to the precepts of the Talmud.

Well, then his statement doesn't apply to that belief system.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid.

Then I too will be frank: it would behoove you to read a little bit before making claims that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
The evil rabbinical council of old bearded dudes decided something like 10 years ago that organ donation was a mitzvah, and kosher according to the precepts of the Talmud.


OK, let's clarify. The majority of Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jewish sources allow organ donation only after certain conditions of death are met (irreversible cardiac failure is the biggie; brain stem death is still hotly contested). This becomes a touchy situation when a donor is on his deathbed, in a coma, not expected to live, and someone needs a lung. But that's not the issue here.

The big issues surrounding organ donation in Jewish law in this day and age are:

- Donating a Jewish organ to a gentile: All but the smallest minority are against this. I think it has to do with the touchy ethical laws of "If you can save a Gentile or a jew, who do you save?" kind of stuff. The vast majority don't differentiate and assign values to lives.

- Desecration of a dead body: There are various issues surrounding issues of dead bodies (benefiting from a dead body, altering a dead body, etc.) but the vast majority rule that saving a life overrules all that. If a certified dead body still has a viable organ, majority says go for it.

That being said, the minority still has grounds for discrimination in this case, because they are being blocked out from the benefits due to their beliefs. But like I said before, the same issue would apply to someone who ins't otherwise eligible for donation. Do we treat him with lesser value?

EDIT: I found a good article from a ruling that is against organ donation is cases where rabbinic consult will not be guaranteed. It isn't extremist at all, and it's these types of people that are affected by the legislation.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Asylumer » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:22 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid.

Then I too will be frank: it would behoove you to read a little bit before making claims that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
The evil rabbinical council of old bearded dudes decided something like 10 years ago that organ donation was a mitzvah, and kosher according to the precepts of the Talmud.


Perhaps you should reread what he said. He made no mention of a specific religion and clearly remarked that he would only consider a religion stupid IF they had no compunction about taking organs but wouldn't donate organs themselves.

Then I too will be frank: it would behoove you to read a little bit before making claims


Frankly, I agree. :wink:

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Xeio » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:02 pm UTC

I'm for mandatory organ donation, so this is a step in the right direction. 8)

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:I'm for mandatory organ donation, so this is a step in the right direction. 8)


See, mandatory donation would actually make some sense. At least then, you could opt out for religious reasons (or other legitimate reasons) and not suffer consequences. When you set up an incentive program that says "We will save your life first if you donate", you start making people upset.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:18 pm UTC

Yes, how presumptuous of me to assume he was referring to Judaism. :roll:
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Xeio » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:32 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
Xeio wrote:I'm for mandatory organ donation, so this is a step in the right direction. 8)
See, mandatory donation would actually make some sense. At least then, you could opt out for religious reasons (or other legitimate reasons) and not suffer consequences..
Who said anything about opting out...?

EDIT: Though, perhaps allowing opt-out, except you can never receive organs if you do (except direct donations)...
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Accipiter » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:34 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
It's not a double standard. It's one thing to not want to give your organs away. It's another thing to accept one from someone who already gave it. The only offense might be that you're supporting the practice, but at least in Judasim, the laws of Judaism apply to Jews and not to anyone else (and this is Israel we're talking about). So, if you want to donate, go for it. Nobody's complaining.

(I can't know for sure, but the fact that this is happening in Israel leads me to believe that the Knesset isn't being religiously colorblind about all this. This very well may be a snub to the Charedi population, and it wouldn't shock me in the least.)

Hmm yeah didn't think about the option to apply different rules to a group than to all others. I admit in that case it's consistent and not hypocritical
Izawwlgood wrote:Yes, how presumptuous of me to assume he was referring to Judaism. :roll:
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Yes, how presumptuous of me to assume he was referring to Judaism. :roll:

Well yeah, especially since there was a fairly strong qualifier to his pejorative that Judaism doesn't meet.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Texas_Ben » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:02 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
tzvibish wrote:
Xeio wrote:I'm for mandatory organ donation, so this is a step in the right direction. 8)
See, mandatory donation would actually make some sense. At least then, you could opt out for religious reasons (or other legitimate reasons) and not suffer consequences..
Who said anything about opting out...?

Ummm, because forcing people to be organ donors with no choice in the matter is pretty dystopian? I'm envisioning a grimdark future where fleshreaving robots roam the streets, harvesting the organs and tissues of the dead, and feuling themselves on whatever can't be cannibalized. It seems pretty plausible. It could happen, you know?


The vast majority of people who aren't organ donors aren't organ donors because they couldn't be arsed to check the little box. Making it opt-out rather than opt-in would already serve the purpose of magically turning the vast majority of the population into organ donors over the course of a few years as they get their licenses removed. I really don't see the need to force someone to undergo procedures, even posthumously, that they would find objectionable.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby vookaloop » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:The vast majority of people who aren't organ donors aren't organ donors because they couldn't be arsed to check the little box.

This statement is dubious

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Griffin » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:30 pm UTC

It's not a double standard. It's one thing to not want to give your organs away. It's another thing to accept one from someone who already gave it. The only offense might be that you're supporting the practice, but at least in Judasim, the laws of Judaism apply to Jews and not to anyone else (and this is Israel we're talking about). So, if you want to donate, go for it. Nobody's complaining.


If you have one standard for jews and one for everybody else... how is that not, you know, EXACTLY the definition of a double standard?

"We will save your life first if you donate", you start making people upset.

They aren't saying this, but even if they were, its perfectly fair - you get out of a system what you're willing to put into in. Note that you don't have to donate organs, you don't even have to be able to, you just have to be willing to.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where decisions like "who gets life-saving priority" didn't need to be made - but (in part because of the selfish bastards who feel slighted by this), we don't. Someone DOES need to prioritized, so me might as well prioritize those whose actions lead to the most lives saved.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:38 pm UTC

Accipiter wrote:I will be frank. If your religion forbids you to donate your organs but allows you to have organs transplanted which come from donors then I consider that stupid. If a rule is important then you shouldn't take actions which require others to break the rule.
(And respecting the rules of religions... On second thought, i think I won't open this can of worms)

Congratulations on reasoning like a halachic scholar. While you have indeed come to the correct conclusion, the Haredim of Israel have long since stopped caring about halachah as anything other than a justification for their obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Decker wrote:
Lazar wrote:From the AP. Basically, people who sign organ donor cards will be given priority if they need a transplant.

What's the golden rule in this case? "Put into others what you would have them put into you?"

That's what she said.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:57 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:
It's not a double standard. It's one thing to not want to give your organs away. It's another thing to accept one from someone who already gave it. The only offense might be that you're supporting the practice, but at least in Judasim, the laws of Judaism apply to Jews and not to anyone else (and this is Israel we're talking about). So, if you want to donate, go for it. Nobody's complaining.


If you have one standard for jews and one for everybody else... how is that not, you know, EXACTLY the definition of a double standard?


If by double standard, you mean that there are two standards, one for Jews (very strict and religious), and one for non-Jews (not required to keep the laws of the Torah), then yes, it is a double standard. It's sort of the basis of the religion. That said, there's nothing forbidden about organ transplants. What's forbidden is taking organs out of a live body, or taking organs out of a dead body that you don't know for sure will be saving someone's life (i.e. for research). Since most donor situations require only Brain Stem Death for the moinker of 'dead' to be applied, and since many in the Orthodox world have ruled BSD to be still alive, you're murdering somebody if you take a beating heart out of a BSD patient.

Once the organ has been removed, then it's just an organ, and whoever needs it can get it.

I've seen various solutions to the problem, most of which include legislation that allows for guarantee of clergy approval of the organ donation as an option on your card. That way, many of the religious issues can be decided by a certified authority, and someone who carries a card won't have to worry about his organs being misused religiously if something should happen.

There are only a select few sects of Judaism who are being illogical and extremist about all this, and for the most part, cooperation and progress are being encouraged in this area. See this article.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/635401/jewish/Organ-Donation.htm

"We will save your life first if you donate", you start making people upset.

They aren't saying this, but even if they were, its perfectly fair - you get out of a system what you're willing to put into in. Note that you don't have to donate organs, you don't even have to be able to, you just have to be willing to.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where decisions like "who gets life-saving priority" didn't need to be made - but (in part because of the selfish bastards who feel slighted by this), we don't. Someone DOES need to prioritized, so me might as well prioritize those whose actions lead to the most lives saved.[/quote]

You can prioritize all you want, but you end up going down a slippery slope towards the iffy field of eugenics. I'd rather not go there if we didn't have to.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Texas_Ben » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:02 pm UTC

vookaloop wrote:
Texas_Ben wrote:The vast majority of people who aren't organ donors aren't organ donors because they couldn't be arsed to check the little box.

This statement is dubious

Well I only have anecdotal evidence, but pretty much everyone I know who isn't an organ donor gave that as the reason.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Duban » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:03 pm UTC

2 things

1) How is manditory organ donations dystopian? It is simply recognizing that a corpse is no more a person then a pile of bricks is a building, and that the parts should be used to save lives wherever possible.One could argue that the current system is more dystopian in that we could be using body parts that are of no physical use to the person they once were to save lives, but aren't. Not being an organ donor borders from selfish to foolish as people don't actually have anything to gain by retaining their organs after death.

2)Why not, instead of weighing it toward people who have been on the list longest, set a determined amount of time they must have been on the list to be eligable for priority. Say you needed to be on the list for at least 2 years, or for 1 year prior to being diagnosed as needing a new organ. In the former the ideawould be that they, mostly, wouldn't last that long if they tried to sign up at the last moment. In the later would be ideal that they would have to be on the list before being diagnosed, but it opens up a market for deception and abuse.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Yakk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:09 pm UTC

You can prioritize all you want, but you end up going down a slippery slope towards the iffy field of eugenics. I'd rather not go there if we didn't have to.

Who gets an organ is currently prioritized.

Generally, the chance that the donation will work, and the life expectancy difference in the person donated to, are taken into account.

Often, it is limited to those who can get to the organ in a surgery in the practical time limit.

Now, they are going to add in a factor of "are you an organ donor". If you are willing to supply organs, you get more organs from the supply. If you aren't willing to supply organs, you are knocked down the priority list (so someone with a 80% chance of success and a 10 year life expectancy might get it before you with a 80% chance of success and a 12 year life expectancy, instead of after).

The checkmark on your drivers license becomes "do you want to opt-in to the organ exchange, or opt-out of the organ exchange?" If you choose not to join the organ exchange, you still get organs, but ... at a lower priority.

If you opt out of the organ exchange for religious reasons, then you opt out for religious reasons. You don't supply organs for others to use, and they don't supply organs for you: well, actually, you can get charity organs.

Someone who is religiously not allowed to work -- should they get a salary from people who do work? Your choice not to work is respected, but the benefits of work (the salary) are not granted.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:21 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Someone who is religiously not allowed to work -- should they get a salary from people who do work? Your choice not to work is respected, but the benefits of work (the salary) are not granted.


See, this is where there is some confusion.

First of all, if I respect your choice not to work, I still have to give you equal opportunity to make up those benefits some other way (if you choose to). That doesn't exist in the donor benefits system.

Also, in the donor benefits system, something is being taken from you if you don't give. Something that you previously had public access to. That doesn't mean that the whole system is bunk, just that you need to find a way to accommodate the ones who can't give. That could be through participation in organ drives, or other pro-donation activity.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:31 pm UTC

First of all, if I respect your choice not to work, I still have to give you equal opportunity to make up those benefits some other way (if you choose to). That doesn't exist in the donor benefits system.


and you are basing this on? If someone refuses to work(not to be mistaken with being unable to work/find work) I am not obligated to provide for them.

Also, in the donor benefits system, something is being taken from you if you don't give. Something that you previously had public access to. That doesn't mean that the whole system is bunk, just that you need to find a way to accommodate the ones who can't give. That could be through participation in organ drives, or other pro-donation activity.


It isn't taking anything away, it is saying people who are/were willing to donate organs should get a higher priority on receiving them.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:56 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
First of all, if I respect your choice not to work, I still have to give you equal opportunity to make up those benefits some other way (if you choose to). That doesn't exist in the donor benefits system.


and you are basing this on? If someone refuses to work(not to be mistaken with being unable to work/find work) I am not obligated to provide for them.


If I'm working for a year without problems, and my boss says "Ok, now regular hours will include Saturday." He can't fire me because I won't work on Sat. It is grounds for religious discrimination. Well, he can fire me. But I have grounds for a case for compensation. Now, he has every right not to hire me from the outset knowing that this is going to be a problem, but that's not comparable to this case. In the donor situation, the legislation is going to push people who won't become card-carrying (emphasis on that. There's a difference between willing to give, and willing to give based only on the judgement of the government) down the priority list based on a decision that isn't cut and dry. It's more complicated than just "do you believe in taking a dead person's organs". It's "When is a person dead?" It's not a light decision at all.

Also, in the donor benefits system, something is being taken from you if you don't give. Something that you previously had public access to. That doesn't mean that the whole system is bunk, just that you need to find a way to accommodate the ones who can't give. That could be through participation in organ drives, or other pro-donation activity.


It isn't taking anything away, it is saying people who are/were willing to donate organs should get a higher priority on receiving them.[/quote]

It's a two way street. One person benefiting here means someone losing.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:07 pm UTC

If I'm working for a year without problems, and my boss says "Ok, now regular hours will include Saturday." He can't fire me because I won't work on Sat. It is grounds for religious discrimination.


Not the same situation, you being willing to work extra hours because you won't work Saturdays isn't the same as saying I won't give organs but I demand equal access to them.

In the donor situation, the legislation is going to push people who won't become card-carrying (emphasis on that. There's a difference between willing to give, and willing to give based only on the judgement of the government) down the priority list based on a decision that isn't cut and dry. It's more complicated than just "do you believe in taking a dead person's organs". It's "When is a person dead?" It's not a light decision at all.


The decision here is whether or not being willing to donate organs should give someone priority in receiving donations. If someone has a religious objection to donating there organs, that is perfectly acceptable but they should be willing to sacrifice priority(which is different then sacrificing a chance at organs).
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
If I'm working for a year without problems, and my boss says "Ok, now regular hours will include Saturday." He can't fire me because I won't work on Sat. It is grounds for religious discrimination.


Not the same situation, you being willing to work extra hours because you won't work Saturdays isn't the same as saying I won't give organs but I demand equal access to them.


I'm not demanding equal access, just equal opportunity. Don't push me out without any options because of my religion. Give me an avenue to regain the priority (like working extra hours). In a (sorta) similar vein, we force immunization in dormitories, but give options to parents that opt out for whatever reason.
mmmcannibalism wrote:
In the donor situation, the legislation is going to push people who won't become card-carrying (emphasis on that. There's a difference between willing to give, and willing to give based only on the judgement of the government) down the priority list based on a decision that isn't cut and dry. It's more complicated than just "do you believe in taking a dead person's organs". It's "When is a person dead?" It's not a light decision at all.


The decision here is whether or not being willing to donate organs should give someone priority in receiving donations. If someone has a religious objection to donating there organs, that is perfectly acceptable but they should be willing to sacrifice priority(which is different then sacrificing a chance at organs).


Maybe they should be willing. But can the government force them to be willing? And also, once again, the majority of people who don't donate for religious reason are really pro-donation. They don't trust the government's standards of death and reason to extract, so they don't carry cards unless guaranteed review and/or consult by a member of the clergy. It's not that they don't want to donate, it's that they don't trust the government's standards of donation.

There are a few extremists out there who believe that keeping the dead body intact is worth another human life, but those are extremists for a reason. They are extreme.
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