Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

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mmmcannibalism
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:47 pm UTC

I'm not demanding equal access, just equal opportunity. Don't push me out without any options because of my religion. Give me an avenue to regain the priority (like working extra hours). In a (sorta) similar vein, we force immunization in dormitories, but give options to parents that opt out for whatever reason.


So what would you suggest? Short of allowing people to pay for organ priority(that sure doesn't sound problematic) I don't see how you could let someone make up for being willing to take but not supply organs.


Maybe they should be willing. But can the government force them to be willing? And also, once again, the majority of people who don't donate for religious reason are really pro-donation. They don't trust the government's standards of death and reason to extract, so they don't carry cards unless guaranteed review and/or consult by a member of the clergy. It's not that they don't want to donate, it's that they don't trust the government's standards of donation.

There are a few extremists out there who believe that keeping the dead body intact is worth another human life, but those are extremists for a reason. They are extreme.


So your telling me these people would all love to donate even though its against their religious beliefs but they don't donate because they think the government has bad standards? I have never heard of someone saying they don't want to donate because they are afraid of the government's donation standards.

I have no problem with someone not wanting to donate their organs, but it should be understood that not being willing to donate organs means other people who were willing should get priority.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby tzvibish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:11 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
So what would you suggest? Short of allowing people to pay for organ priority(that sure doesn't sound problematic) I don't see how you could let someone make up for being willing to take but not supply organs.


The solution would be to allow a caveat in the enrollment process that guarantees a clergy evaluation before organ extraction. 95% of the problem is solved right there. Or just give options in the enrollment process to specify exactly in what conditions your organs should be able to be extracted.


So your telling me these people would all love to donate even though its against their religious beliefs but they don't donate because they think the government has bad standards? I have never heard of someone saying they don't want to donate because they are afraid of the government's donation standards.

I have no problem with someone not wanting to donate their organs, but it should be understood that not being willing to donate organs means other people who were willing should get priority.


Well, I'll post this for the third time, and maybe you'll read it.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/635401/jewish/Organ-Donation.htm

I would love to donate my organs. But I don't want it done when I'm alive. And if I thing Brain stem death is still 'alive', then I don't want to give my organs in that situation. It's not an unwillingness to give organs, it's an unwillingness to give organs from a living person. Cause that's murder.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:18 pm UTC

The solution would be to allow a caveat in the enrollment process that guarantees a clergy evaluation before organ extraction. 95% of the problem is solved right there. Or just give options in the enrollment process to specify exactly in what conditions your organs should be able to be extracted.


Thats fine, did someone suggest otherwise? I have been saying that priority should be given to people willing to donate organs, details such as the above are easy enough to iron out.

Well, I'll post this for the third time, and maybe you'll read it.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... nation.htm

I would love to donate my organs. But I don't want it done when I'm alive. And if I thing Brain stem death is still 'alive', then I don't want to give my organs in that situation. It's not an unwillingness to give organs, it's an unwillingness to give organs from a living person. Cause that's murder.


As above, if its just a matter of needing certain exceptions to provide for religous views I am fine with some exceptions(in process). However, if someone is unwilling to donate organs at all, it is appropriate to prioritize people who would be willing to help.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Vaniver » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:09 pm UTC

[thread derail]
You know what would be nicer than this? Organ markets.
[/thread derail]
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:54 am UTC

It already has a clergy evaluation thing! Here is the full text of an Adi card:

With the hope of helping others, I hereby order and donate after my death:
*Any organ of my body which others can use to save their lives.
*Kidney *Pancreas *Liver *Heart *Lungs *Retina *Skin *Bones
*With the condition that a religious authority of my family's choice approves the donation after my death.
My donation is for the purpose of implanting only.

Every * is a checkbox, so if you want to be sure your religion approves, just check the appropriate box.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Outchanter » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:37 am UTC

tzvibish wrote:It's a two way street. One person benefiting here means someone losing.

It's not a zero sum game. Every time someone is encouraged to sign up by this program, the organ waitlist gets (statistically) shorter.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Xeio » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:11 am UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:Ummm, because forcing people to be organ donors with no choice in the matter is pretty dystopian? I'm envisioning a grimdark future where fleshreaving robots roam the streets, harvesting the organs and tissues of the dead, and feuling themselves on whatever can't be cannibalized. It seems pretty plausible. It could happen, you know?
I'm going to echo this. v
Duban wrote:1) How is manditory organ donations dystopian? It is simply recognizing that a corpse is no more a person then a pile of bricks is a building, and that the parts should be used to save lives wherever possible.One could argue that the current system is more dystopian in that we could be using body parts that are of no physical use to the person they once were to save lives, but aren't. Not being an organ donor borders from selfish to foolish as people don't actually have anything to gain by retaining their organs after death.
Exactly how do you go from mandatory organ donation to robots roaming the street harvesting the dead is beyond me. Also, how often do you see dead people on the street anyway that they'd be roaming like that...? Maybe you should move.
tzvibish wrote:I would love to donate my organs. But I don't want it done when I'm alive. And if I thing Brain stem death is still 'alive', then I don't want to give my organs in that situation. It's not an unwillingness to give organs, it's an unwillingness to give organs from a living person. Cause that's murder.
Wouldn't a living will cover something like this? Presumably you want to be kept alive indefinitely on machines, correct? Thus there really wouldn't be any point at which they could use your organs...

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:18 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:[thread derail]
You know what would be nicer than this? Organ markets.
[/thread derail]


Kidneys! Get yer kidneys! 2 for 1 offer this week only! Get 'em while they're fresh!
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Yakk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:58 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
Yakk wrote:Someone who is religiously not allowed to work -- should they get a salary from people who do work? Your choice not to work is respected, but the benefits of work (the salary) are not granted.


See, this is where there is some confusion.

First of all, if I respect your choice not to work, I still have to give you equal opportunity to make up those benefits some other way (if you choose to). That doesn't exist in the donor benefits system.

Sure. You can find someone who willingly gives you, specifically, their organs. Targetted donation is still in existence.

Laws against paying for organs should still exist. So you just have to convince people to specifically give you organs without paying them or offering them any kind of financial reward for doing so.
Also, in the donor benefits system, something is being taken from you if you don't give. Something that you previously had public access to.

The fact that someone used to give you something for free doesn't make being given that for free an eternal obligation.

If the state once had a welfare system, and then dismantled it and turned it into a physical disability and unemployment insurance system, the fact that you where once able to free ride on the welfare system doesn't mean they where obligated to give you that free ride.

If you aren't willing to donate organs prior to Brain stem death, then fill that out. And you should get full priority on all organs harvested in people who would have donated, given whatever your criteria is. Those who donate on more generous criteria, get priority on organs harvested on that (or less strict) criteria.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Diadem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:24 pm UTC

As first thought, this makes sense. I too for years supported such a system. But if you think about it more carefully, it doesn't.

I get the idea: Organs should go to people who deserve them most. Alright. But using only one parameter to determine that stretches this principle to the point of breaking. There are many ways of helping others. Should someone who doesn't care at all about others and sits on his ass all day long get priority over someone who spents 20 hours a week doing volunteer work in addition to a fulltime job, just because the former happened to fill in a little form 30-odd years ago? And anyway judging people on subjective things like 'do they deserve it' is tricky at best.

I have a much better solution: Pay for organs.

If I die and donate my liver, the doctors doing the surgery make a few thousand each. The hospital makes tens of thousands. The pharmaceutical companies pushing me drugs for the rest of my life will make hundres of thousands. Meanwhile I'm expected to do it all for free?

You want my liver after I'm dead? No problem. For €5000 it's yours. To be paid, of course, to my heirs.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby uncivlengr » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:33 pm UTC

Is there any sort of policy in place governing whether an organ can be transplanted from Person A into Person B, and then transplanted again into Person C later on if Person B is also a donor?
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby olubunmi » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:07 pm UTC

uncivlengr wrote:Is there any sort of policy in place governing whether an organ can be transplanted from Person A into Person B, and then transplanted again into Person C later on if Person B is also a donor?



I think by then, the quality of the organ will have reduced significantly, and won't likely be used again.
I could be wrong though.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:16 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I get the idea: Organs should go to people who deserve them most...
I have a much better solution: Pay for organsRich people deserve organs most.
Nonono, this is a slippery slope. See, until you introduce currency the system works on organs alone - an organs in, organs out, tit-for-tat strategy. Not much space for abuse here, the worst that happens is someone cheats for himself a better place in a queue. But at least he still belongs to the queue. Once you put money into the picture, it's all about this evil guy who adopts people and then makes "accidents" happen to them, donates their organs and gets the money, or this desperate guy with a lot of debt and he just lost his job and he has eight kids and... well, you know.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:59 pm UTC

Maurog wrote:Nonono, this is a slippery slope. See, until you introduce currency the system works on organs alone - an organs in, organs out, tit-for-tat strategy. Not much space for abuse here, the worst that happens is someone cheats for himself a better place in a queue. But at least he still belongs to the queue. Once you put money into the picture, it's all about this evil guy who adopts people and then makes "accidents" happen to them, donates their organs and gets the money, or this desperate guy with a lot of debt and he just lost his job and he has eight kids and... well, you know.
Those scenarios won't be the majority, or even a significant minority, of organ sales. And, in the second scenario, what would you prefer happen to the guy? His solution magically fix itself? Or he be able to sell an asset to get something more valuable than that asset?

I get that poverty sucks. But the way to help individuals get out of poverty is not to shut doors on them. I mean, imagine you're in a desperate situation, and selling an organ would dramatically improve your life. Would you feel better knowing that option is off the table, or at least incredibly more dangerous?

As well, fears about black markets are misplaced. White markets displace black markets. Compare the market for drugs and stolen cars. Stolen cars aren't particularly valuable, because you can get legitimate parts elsewhere- the cost of the stolen car is determined by the legitimate market value minus the various costs of illegality. Drugs, however, are particularly valuable, because you can't get legitimate drugs elsewhere- the cost of the drugs is determined by the various costs of illegality, since the suppliers set the price. Do you think we'd be importing as much marijuana as we do now if you could grow it in your backyard?

The only country where kidney sales are legal is, not coincidentally, the only country where there is a waitlist to give up your kidney. In every other country, the way kidneys are doled out is you have to not die longer than anybody else that needs a kidney- which is tremendously expensive and damaging to the health of the people that need kidneys (for example, the ones that die waiting). There's also a public health benefit- the people competing to sell their kidneys start living healthier and getting more frequent checkups to try and raise the value of their kidney. When you allow voluntary exchanges with minimal negative externalities, everybody wins.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Texas_Ben » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:31 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Exactly how do you go from mandatory organ donation to robots roaming the street harvesting the dead is beyond me. Also, how often do you see dead people on the street anyway that they'd be roaming like that...? Maybe you should move.

Fine so they won't roam the streets, instead opting to hang around hospitals and retirement communities.

Joking aside, mandatory donation without the ability to opt-out is not a good idea. The poster who first brought it up said something along the lines of "Well what does it matter what happens, you're dead". While I'm inclined to agree, the fact remains that for pretty much all of human society, how you treat a body after it's dead remains a big deal, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. While I agree that there's no real reason *not* to be an organ donor, I also think that taking that choice away from people is wrong. As I mentioned before, making it opt-out rather than opt-in would drastically increase the number of donors, there's no reason to make it inescapably mandatory.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:08 pm UTC

Ah, Vaniver, you misunderstood my argument. I have no problem with people selling their own organs, nope, not one bit. I have a problem with people selling other people's organs, which is what happens when you exchange dead people's organs for money and then give the money to their family.

Oh, and the robots roam the streets because an unfortunate glitch replaced the order of their two primary directives - "confirm that a person is dead" and "harvest organs".
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:02 am UTC

Maurog wrote:Ah, Vaniver, you misunderstood my argument. I have no problem with people selling their own organs, nope, not one bit. I have a problem with people selling other people's organs, which is what happens when you exchange dead people's organs for money and then give the money to their family.


So you would have no problem with rich people driving through a slum offering people a thousand dollars for a heart?

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:03 am UTC

And what is the problem with that, really? Is a person not in possession of their own organs? As long as everyone involved are adults and it's properly regulated and taxed, I'm totally cool with it.

In fact, after some consideration, I revoke my slippery slope argument. Paying money for dead people's organs should be a-ok too, and should be treated like any other property. So like, you should specify in your will what to do with the money the government gives you for your organs. Makes sense?
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:08 am UTC

Maurog wrote:And what is the problem with that, really? Is a person not in possession of their own organs? As long as everyone involved are adults and it's properly regulated and taxed, I'm totally cool with it.


So you are also ok with rich people paying poor people to let them hunt the poor people for sport?

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby Maurog » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:18 am UTC

I have less problem with it than I have with hunting. See, animals can't consent to being hunted and nobody asks them. But humans can. The real question is, are they gonna eat what they kill, the wasteful pricks?
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:30 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Vaniver wrote:[thread derail]
You know what would be nicer than this? Organ markets.
[/thread derail]


Kidneys! Get yer kidneys! 2 for 1 offer this week only! Get 'em while they're fresh!

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

Special offer today: Buy any three organs, get the cheapest one free! I'll even throw in a doudenum for being a loyal customer.
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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby kevmus » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:15 pm UTC

Here's a video that is relevant to the opt-out system: (start at about 5:00 if you're going to tl:dr it)
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_ask ... sions.html

Here's the relevant part:

Countries and percent organ donors:

Denmark: 4%
Netherlands: 28%
UK 17%
Germany 12%
-------------------
Austria 100%
Belgium 98%
France 100%
Hungary 100%
Poland 100%
Portugal 100%
Sweden 86%

What's the main difference between the countries above the line and those below it? The ones below are opt-out, the ones above are opt-in.
Also, the Netherland's 28% is after sending a personal letter to every household begging people to join. The video goes into more detail as to why opt-out increases the PENGUINS!!! rate so much, but I say that more countries should try. There's no religious/discriminatory/cheating here: Anyone who wants to be a jerk can put the check in the box that says "Don't save lives with my junk after I'm dead".

And it works, according to this (rather limited) dataset.

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Re: Israel to implement "golden rule" for organ donations

Postby just-mark » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:10 pm UTC

Does it say in the video if opt-out countries with donation rates as high as those still have severe shortages of organs for transplants? Could opt-out schemes make the priority arguments moot because there are 'enough' organs for the people who need them? I imagine not but it seems a possibility.
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