North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

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North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Auwolf » Thu May 20, 2010 4:15 pm UTC

Source.

Spoiler:
n the most serious attack for over 20 years, a North Korean torpedo was found to be responsible for the sinking of the Cheonan, a 300-ft South Korean warship, which sank on March 26 with the loss of 46 lives.

An official report, carried out by South Korean investigators together with teams from the United States, Britain, Australia and Sweden, said the evidence pointed "overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine." It added: "There is no other plausible explanation."

South Korea vowed "resolute countermeasures" against the North and is likely to appeal to the United Nations for further sanctions on the rogue state.

Barack Obama immediately offered his "strong and unequivocal" support to Lee Myung-bak, his South Korean counterpart. "This attack constitutes a challenge to international peace and security," the White House said.

Britain, Japan and Australia all joined the chorus of condemnation.

William Hague, the British Foreign secretary, said North Korea had a "total indifference to human life and international obligations". He said Britain was working on an "appropriate multilateral response to this callous act".

Robert Gibbs, the White House spokesman, said: "This act of aggression is one more instance of North Korea's unacceptable behaviour and defiance of international law.... Such unacceptable behaviour only deepens North Korea's isolation."

He said the attack "constitutes a challenge to international peace and security".

However, North Korea strongly denied responsibility for the attack, calling the investigation a "fabrication orchestrated by a group of traitors". It said it would "promptly" react to any retaliation and further sanctions with "various forms of tough measures including an all-out war". In recent weeks, North Korea has begun massing more troops on the border with the South.

China, the last major ally of Pyongyang, gave a cautious and lukewarm response, saying that all parties should "remain calm" and that it would conduct its own "assessment" of the findings. Without China's support at the UN Security Council, North Korea is likely to escape punishment.

"China is not directly involved, so it should not take a stance on either side or express views on the incident," said Zhang Liangui, a North Korean expert at the Central Party School, where Communist Party leaders are trained.

"South Korea's submission of its report to the UN will clearly force China into making a stance and this will be a challenge. This will be handled by the Foreign ministry, but my view is that China, in accordance with its rising status as a major country, should not go against the rest of the world, but should consider its interests in line with the majority," he added.

In Seoul, the long weeks of mourning since the attack and the personal stories of the young men who lost their lives have deepened the sense of outrage, piling pressure on the government not to allow the lost lives to pass unavenged.

However, military retaliation against North Korea seems to have already been ruled out. "Nobody wants a war on the Korean peninsula and the truth is that it is not easy to take revenge after the event," said Choi Jong-min, whose brother-in-law, Petty Officer First Class Jo Jin-young, was among the dead.

"Military reprisals should have been taken there and then [at the time of the sinking], or not at all," he added.

South Korea has called an emergency meeting of its National Security Council to discuss its options. However, experts said that most of the punitive actions on offer stand to hurt Seoul at least as much as Pyongyang.

"There really are few good options out there for South Korea," said Daniel Pinkston, a North Korea expert at the International Crisis Group. "They can go to the UN, but in reality China is very unlikely to back serious economic measures against the North which is already in economic crisis.

"Anything too drastic, such as military retaliation or real moves to destabilise the North's economy risks regional instability that could trigger market crashes, capital flight and an overnight loss of regional confidence. It is really hard to see how the South ends up better off after this."


Hmm... I wonder if they are serious or just trying to get attention.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Mot » Thu May 20, 2010 4:26 pm UTC

I read in another article that, while most countries strongly condemned the incident, China called it "unfortunate". Way to go, China.

If North Korea isn't careful, they'll get an angry letter from the UN.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby MrEmu » Thu May 20, 2010 4:39 pm UTC

...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over. Although it's hard to condone that sort of unilateral action in the aftermath of the Iraq situation, I feel that some sort of surgical strike could do a lot to put North Korea back in its place. After all, they seem to get progressively more aggressive as time goes on, and there's no guarantee they'll go away on their own.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby frezik » Thu May 20, 2010 4:43 pm UTC

North Korea threatens a lot of things. They're like a misbehaving 4-year-old at a grocery store who wants one of those knock-off Super Soakers they sell in the toy isle.

US Military sims show that N. Korea has enough artillery to craterize Seoul within the first 24 hours, and no amount of quick response from the US or allies would be able to stop it in time. N. Korea would, of course, would have all Anti Aircraft defenses leveled within a week, but that's not enough to stop the massive humanitarian disaster.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Jahoclave » Thu May 20, 2010 5:02 pm UTC

The question is, can North Korea counter a Zergling Rush?


The other thing that's interesting is that China will get put in a very precarious situation as North Korea goes more and more aggressive. They have far too much to lose by taking military action with North Korea like they did in the war. So, I'd really kind of like to see them step up and discipline their child like a good parent instead of pulling a Britain and letting their kid run willy-nilly all over the planet.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 20, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

frezik wrote:North Korea threatens a lot of things. They're like a misbehaving 4-year-old at a grocery store who wants one of those knock-off Super Soakers they sell in the toy isle.
.


To fix your analogy:

They're like a misbehaving 4-year-old with a machine gun. (Nukes!)
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Glmclain » Thu May 20, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:The question is, can North Korea counter a Zergling Rush?


The other thing that's interesting is that China will get put in a very precarious situation as North Korea goes more and more aggressive. They have far too much to lose by taking military action with North Korea like they did in the war. So, I'd really kind of like to see them step up and discipline their child like a good parent instead of pulling a Britain and letting their kid run willy-nilly all over the planet.


China already decried N. Korea for it's missile testing, god knows what would happen if N. Korea actually started attaking other nations. I'm supporting finding an excuse to surgical strike some important army instillations before N. Korea seriously gets out of hand...
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu May 20, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.


No, that would be entirely ineffective. A huge amount of artillery that can strike Seoul is in tunnels that would be almost completely unaffected by anything other than a MOAB, and even those aren't battle tested. Basically, the first move from the North in any all out war is killing several thousand civilians.

At this point, with the handover of power in the North at a rather precarious point, this could go in any direction at all. Not a happy occurence.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Le1bn1z » Thu May 20, 2010 6:31 pm UTC

There's frankly very little the major powers can do about this. N Korea has nukes. They can reach China, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, bits of Russia.... End of story.

The only possibility would be to take Kim Jong Il's toys away, by blowing up his palaces.

Fortunately, the USA outright ignored Canada, Princess Diana and others who tried to get it to pull up the landmines along the border. So long as they remain, N Korea will have a hard time launching a ground attack.

I'm also wonder where those protesters calling for the ejection of American troops have gone.... and how long the Japanese ones will keep going, now that American troops may be needed to save everyone's keisters (again.)
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu May 20, 2010 6:47 pm UTC

Le1bn1z wrote:There's frankly very little the major powers can do about this. N Korea has nukes. They can reach China, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, bits of Russia.... End of story.


Whilst its true that they have missiles and its likely that they have the fissile material for 3 or 4 bombs (maybe) and its possible that they've worked out the kinks in their bomb design (there was one test that was probably a misfire, followed by another that seems to have been a genuine nuclear explosion) its not certain that they have warheads that they can put on their missiles. It would be foolish to assume that they don't, but its not sound to assume that they do.

Neither landmines nor american troops will save anyone from the first few volleys of rocket artillery.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Le1bn1z » Thu May 20, 2010 6:52 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Neither landmines nor american troops will save anyone from the first few volleys of rocket artillery.


Well.... better several thousands dead from bombardment than the whole peninsula under the insane and evil rule of N Korea and its psychopath generals. They can bombard, but won't be able to follow with ground troops soon enough to overwhelm the South.

Like the Japanese in WWII, they'd also face severe fuel shortages after an initial offensive, if China refused to back them directly.

If it did come to war, my proposal would be: UN mandate (like before) calling for a Chinese supervised occupation of the North. Leave it as a Chinese satellite, as the PRC is considerably less crazy and dangerous. If this got China to at least stand idly by, if the initial assaut could be blunted, that could be the end of NK.

But just as likely, Tokyo would be under an atomic cloud right quick, with threats at Soel to follow.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Zamfir » Thu May 20, 2010 7:28 pm UTC

Le1bn1z wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:Neither landmines nor american troops will save anyone from the first few volleys of rocket artillery.


Well.... better several thousands dead from bombardment than the whole peninsula under the insane and evil rule of N Korea and its psychopath generals. They can bombard, but won't be able to follow with ground troops soon enough to overwhelm the South.

Like the Japanese in WWII, they'd also face severe fuel shortages after an initial offensive, if China refused to back them directly.

If it did come to war, my proposal would be: UN mandate (like before) calling for a Chinese supervised occupation of the North. Leave it as a Chinese satellite, as the PRC is considerably less crazy and dangerous. If this got China to at least stand idly by, if the initial assaut could be blunted, that could be the end of NK.

I can see that as a result if there was no war: at some point replacing the current regime by a China-oriented regime with the South Koreans secretly happy for not having to take over the mess.

But if the North Koreans really ever decide to blow themselves up, I don't see how it could end that way. If the US stayed out of the fight, they would lose most of their status in East-Asia. If they do fight, they could never sell at home that China is now in charge.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Jahoclave » Thu May 20, 2010 7:38 pm UTC

Frankly, I blame the parents. :wink:

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Glmclain » Thu May 20, 2010 8:00 pm UTC

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Diadem » Thu May 20, 2010 8:40 pm UTC

MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.

Well yes, the problem is that even the if the USA, Europe and China threw their full military might, including nuclear weapons, at North Korea, they could not stop them from turning Seoul into a smoldering pile of debris.

It's not that North Korea can't be defeated. But there's no way to defeat them before they hit Seoul with the insane amount of artillery they got set up along the border.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Ivora » Thu May 20, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Whats worse is that I heard other nations are not taking this threat seriously! MY FRIEND LIVES IN SEOUL!

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Weeks » Thu May 20, 2010 9:06 pm UTC

That's just a horrible situation for South Korea...I wonder what those few good options are.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby SummerGlauFan » Thu May 20, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

How does China wield so much power in the U.N. that by abstaining it can completely block sanctions or other punishments on NK?
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu May 20, 2010 9:28 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:How does China wield so much power in the U.N. that by abstaining it can completely block sanctions or other punishments on NK?

It's one of the five permanent members of the security council. They all have vetoes on security council resolutions, and security council resolutions are the only binding ones.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby kiklion » Thu May 20, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.

Well yes, the problem is that even the if the USA, Europe and China threw their full military might, including nuclear weapons, at North Korea, they could not stop them from turning Seoul into a smoldering pile of debris.

It's not that North Korea can't be defeated. But there's no way to defeat them before they hit Seoul with the insane amount of artillery they got set up along the border.


Sounds like a job for the A-TEAM! Take out every tunnel at once! Or put a dome over Seoul like they did to Springfield.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby J the Ninja » Thu May 20, 2010 10:09 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:
Diadem wrote:
MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.

Well yes, the problem is that even the if the USA, Europe and China threw their full military might, including nuclear weapons, at North Korea, they could not stop them from turning Seoul into a smoldering pile of debris.

It's not that North Korea can't be defeated. But there's no way to defeat them before they hit Seoul with the insane amount of artillery they got set up along the border.


Sounds like a job for the A-TEAM! Take out every tunnel at once! Or put a dome over Seoul like they did to Springfield.


This is exactly why we need deflector shields. But all we have are cloaking devices.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Shivahn » Thu May 20, 2010 10:13 pm UTC

J the Ninja wrote:
kiklion wrote:
Diadem wrote:
MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.

Well yes, the problem is that even the if the USA, Europe and China threw their full military might, including nuclear weapons, at North Korea, they could not stop them from turning Seoul into a smoldering pile of debris.

It's not that North Korea can't be defeated. But there's no way to defeat them before they hit Seoul with the insane amount of artillery they got set up along the border.


Sounds like a job for the A-TEAM! Take out every tunnel at once! Or put a dome over Seoul like they did to Springfield.


This is exactly why we need deflector shields. But all we have are cloaking devices.


We have tons of nukes and have to reduce the number, right? We should just detonate them repeatedly on the DMZ! No artillery would get through.

That plan could not possibly go wrong or have unintended consequences.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Duban » Thu May 20, 2010 11:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
MrEmu wrote:...and suddenly, in the dead of night, all the DPRK military installations got tomahawked. Game over.

Well yes, the problem is that even the if the USA, Europe and China threw their full military might, including nuclear weapons, at North Korea, they could not stop them from turning Seoul into a smoldering pile of debris.

It's not that North Korea can't be defeated. But there's no way to defeat them before they hit Seoul with the insane amount of artillery they got set up along the border.

Actually if we went nuclear N Korea would have about 20 minutes before their country would become a crater. Even they couldn't deploy their forces that quickly. However there's about a million good reasons not to even consider the nuclear option. Genocide, fallout, massive condemation of any country that participated unless a majority of countries agreed "somehow in complete secrecy".

The problem is that was just a test of what they can get away with. Now that N Korea has nuclear weapons they're simply going to make more and more rediculous demands and attempt to get away with worse and worse stuff. Honestly this isn't going to end well.

The only think I can see not leading to an escalation or terrible crimes is if the countries actually call Kim Jong Il's bluff, station forces around his country and tell him to go #@$# himself and not make empty threats unless he's willing to go through with them. MAYBE then he would back down. Short of that I dont' see this ending in anything but genocide. Even if we did do that I would imagine S Korea and Japan might be a bit pissed or opposed because it's their lives being gambled.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby JayAr » Fri May 21, 2010 12:22 am UTC

Sigh, I'll see what information I can get from N. Korea.

This won't end well, at all.

EDIT: sent an email asking the situation from their perspective. I will post the response here if I ever get one. I'm pretty sure that I am now blacklisted by the US government (Damn I wanted to work with DARPA too...)
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Sockmonkey » Fri May 21, 2010 12:27 am UTC

If only we had the means to mass evacuate the north half of SK overnight. Hello logistics nightmare.
Hypothetically, do we know where KJII and his top people are at any given time? Yeah I know his troops probably have standing orders to strike if that happens, but if it were a viable option could we nail just them?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby JayAr » Fri May 21, 2010 12:29 am UTC

^ his location constantly changes due to paranoia over such a thing happening

EDIT: If you want to *normally* contact N.Korea I found the email address
KOREA@KOREA-DPR.COM
If you want to ask questions or something. Show them the numbers of why not to do whatever they are doing. Stuff like that.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Sockmonkey » Fri May 21, 2010 12:55 am UTC

Yeah I figured.
If you want an email response from NK suck up to them about how the US shouldn't be interfering over there.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby JayAr » Fri May 21, 2010 1:06 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:Yeah I figured.
If you want an email response from NK suck up to them about how the US shouldn't be interfering over there.


What I do when I want information from them. Last time I did this was with the missile tests, deleted that email account. :oops:
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Marquee Moon » Fri May 21, 2010 1:46 am UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:How does China wield so much power in the U.N. that by abstaining it can completely block sanctions or other punishments on NK?

What? China is the most populous nation on earth. Second largest economy in the world. Fastest growing economy in the world. Why do tiny little France and UK get veto powers?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Cynical Idealist » Fri May 21, 2010 1:52 am UTC

Marquee Moon wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:How does China wield so much power in the U.N. that by abstaining it can completely block sanctions or other punishments on NK?

What? China is the most populous nation on earth. Second largest economy in the world. Fastest growing economy in the world. Why do tiny little France and UK get veto powers?

Same reason that China does: they were major powers on the winning side in WWII.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri May 21, 2010 1:56 am UTC

They won World War II and helped found the damn thing. They also between the two of them held quite a fair chunk of the world's land and population through their various empires at the time.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Vaniver » Fri May 21, 2010 2:13 am UTC

Le1bn1z wrote:There's frankly very little the major powers can do about this. N Korea has nukes. They can reach China, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, bits of Russia.... End of story.
That's not relevant. What is relevant is North Korea has a very large amount of artillery pointed at South Korea that is hard to strike; you essentially have to take over the entire country at once to prevent Seoul from being seriously damaged or destroyed. While my personal opinion is that it's worthwhile to nuke North Korea to save Seoul, I suspect the long-term effects of that (particularly Chinese outrage) would make it a losing affair.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Weeks » Fri May 21, 2010 2:15 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:If only we had the means to mass evacuate the north half of SK overnight. Hello logistics nightmare.
Do you think it could be done over the course of a few weeks? Would it draw too much attention from NK?

(NK...SK...If we don't move correctly, the world will be full of WIFOM. Then the Doc won't protect the Cop, and scum will NK us all.)
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Cynical Idealist » Fri May 21, 2010 2:22 am UTC

Weeks wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:If only we had the means to mass evacuate the north half of SK overnight. Hello logistics nightmare.
Do you think it could be done over the course of a few weeks? Would it draw too much attention from NK?

(NK...SK...If we don't move correctly, the world will be full of WIFOM. Then the Doc won't protect the Cop, and scum will NK us all.)

I think you need to lay off the Mafia for a while.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Sockmonkey » Fri May 21, 2010 2:39 am UTC

JayAr wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:Yeah I figured.
If you want an email response from NK suck up to them about how the US shouldn't be interfering over there.


What I do when I want information from them. Last time I did this was with the missile tests, deleted that email account. :oops:


As long as you washed your hands after it's cool.

Weeks wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:If only we had the means to mass evacuate the north half of SK overnight. Hello logistics nightmare.
Do you think it could be done over the course of a few weeks? Would it draw too much attention from NK?

(NK...SK...If we don't move correctly, the world will be full of WIFOM. Then the Doc won't protect the Cop, and scum will NK us all.)


Yeah, KJII is paranoid as it is, they would know something was up. That's why it isn't workable unless we could somehow keep it secret which is impossible with the numbers involved.

PCal
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby PCal » Fri May 21, 2010 2:58 am UTC

Is NK so brainwashed or cut off that there is no one we can pay to remove Kim Jong il for us? Also on the artillery thing is there really no way at all from stopping Seoul from getting leveled short of total nukage. Hell if it has to be moved in to place before firing it seems like it could be stopped.

Glass Fractal
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Glass Fractal » Fri May 21, 2010 3:05 am UTC

PCal wrote:Is NK so brainwashed or cut off that there is no one we can pay to remove Kim Jong il for us?


There might be somebody, but probably not a person with the skills to kill the country's leader.

PCal wrote:Also on the artillery thing is there really no way at all from stopping Seoul from getting leveled short of total nukage. Hell if it has to be moved in to place before firing it seems like it could be stopped.


The US has the Aegis defense system. Maybe that could be smuggled into Seoul.

Kugala
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Kugala » Fri May 21, 2010 3:31 am UTC

Aegis is primarily a missile defense system, not artillery.

CIWS (Close-In Weapon System) has had some success against artillery, but even at that NK would simply oversaturate them.

There's no real defense against a few thousand shells inbound currently; you either get out of the way (Impractical with large cities) or destroy them before they fire (impractical with large quantities of dug in systems).

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frezik
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby frezik » Fri May 21, 2010 3:36 am UTC

PCal wrote:Is NK so brainwashed or cut off that there is no one we can pay to remove Kim Jong il for us? Also on the artillery thing is there really no way at all from stopping Seoul from getting leveled short of total nukage. Hell if it has to be moved in to place before firing it seems like it could be stopped.


It's against international law to target leaders of countries for assassination.
I do not agree with the beer you drink, but will defend to the death your right to drink it

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JayAr
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby JayAr » Fri May 21, 2010 3:39 am UTC

^ tell that to the NATO and their various adventures with Warsaw friendly countries...

EDIT: Question? Would he be replaced with someone more insane? Or someone who knows military tactics, with very good precision (fear mongering, sorry).
Last edited by JayAr on Fri May 21, 2010 3:41 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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I actually truly failed the Turing Test


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