Deleted the post because I decided I was being a little loud about it. Still, if you absolutely
Even before adjusting for it being California (appropriate since the same poll found a larger percent opposed to gay marriage than supported prop
, that implies only around half of Prop 8 supporters believe that. I'm not really talking about them.
You're not talking about half the supporters of Prop 8? Should we just ignore them, then? Would that be more helpful for you?
I'm also just not seeing the whole "A significant number of Prop 8 supporters don't think that homosexuality is a sin--they just think it's a fiscally irresponsible policy" thing. Are there really any significant number of supporters for Prop 8 out there who don't
Silknor wrote:Or you would just have to believe that the numbers line up your way. I doubt you've done a calculation to support your belief, so unless you have the calculations readily available, you seem to be applying a double standard and ignoring the fact that it's their belief that's relevant to the judgment they past, not an unknowable correct answer (you can find an approximation sure, but not the exact value of each of those). Or you could easily have a value system which puts the "human" costs at or around 0, or even negative costs (benefits).
I have no idea what you're even saying here. I was describing under what circumstances this would work as a justifaction. You seem to be saying I'm somehow wrong, and further adding to my description of what circumstances this would work as a justifaction (aka, agreeing with me). So, cool, I guess?
Silknor wrote:My apologies. In my earlier generalization that no one here would likely switch to opposing gay marriage if incontrovertible evidence that it was bad for society was found, I forgot that we have an actual utilitarian here. For most of us here (I suspect), our support of gay marriage is not based on beliefs about the expected utility to society. For those people my point was intended.
Yes, I would oppose homosexual marriage in a heartbeat if the end result was clearly detrimental to society. I suspect that if we existed in some sort of bizarro world where it clearly was detrimental to society as a whole, a lot of people here would oppose it too.
Silknor wrote:Is this an assertion, or do you have actual proof? I don't disagree with the statement (though I find prosperity a strange word choice).
Specifically, the prosperity of homosexuals who wish to marry would decrease. They remain unable to adopt children, denied marital rights, excised from inheritance laws, etc. Their prosperity is directly impacted (negatively).
Silknor wrote:And more importantly, I doubt that most people's opinion of gay marriage is solely informed by it's utility to society.
Lets say you're right. Let's say (and this is my working assumption), that gay marriage is a net benefit for society. Lets say you could prove this. Do you really think all opposition to gay marriage would vanish? In the reverse case, where we can absolutely prove that gay marriage is bad for society, how many minds do you think would change?
Probably none. I mean, we have pretty excellent evidence that God(s) do(es)n't exist and people still believe in Him/Her/It/Them. I don't spite people for this, mind--there's nothing wrong with believing in something for which there is no evidence. But when your belief interferes with the lives and freedoms of those around you...
Silknor wrote:You're acting as if everyone has accepted your system of morality and condemning everyone who hasn't by your implications. This just isn't the case.
Whether or not everyone has accepted my system of morality is irrelevant; what's important is that I am trying to approach morality from the perspective of a realist. I don't derive my morality from whirlwinds, magic kumquats, or Gods in the Sky; I derive it by considering how my actions will impact the people around me. This is the correct place to derive morality: From the real world. People who derive it elsewhere are wrong. As wrong as they are about God, as wrong as they are about the moon-landing, and as wrong as they are about the earth being flat. Sorry, but it's true1
1 WARNING: May Not Actually Be Sorry.