Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:51 pm UTC

I watched that, I believe, when it was linked in another thread. That only helped firm my opinion against going into the region. There seemed to be some areas that are...almost safe, and then there are the areas around the mines that I wouldn't send death-row inmates to. It really is a good watch, uncomfortable in places, but overall very well done.

I'm sure if I could come up with an answer for how to fix that area, I'd win some awards. There just aren't any reasonable answers to what is a very, very messy question.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:59 pm UTC

I don't even think avoiding conflict minerals is a feasible solution. If the high tech companies won't buy them, somebody will. They could launder the minerals by selling them to a middleman who would sell to Australia, and then where are we?

I feel really bad for everything that's going on in that area but... nobody can really tell what's best to do. Or what is good to do. The good things we try to do turn out badly because the government is completely corrupt.

I hate to advocate giving up, but what other options are there?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:I hate to advocate giving up, but what other options are there?

You know those billions we spend on foreign wars that we claim are for the good of the local, but mysteriously also turn out to be good for our long term strategic international policies? Spend all of that on education and infrastructure for people in Eastern DRC or anywhere else that needs help. Keep it up and stay committed for years, until a generation grows up who know of an alternative to the old,violent way of life, and want it enough to spurn the militias and mineral companies. Currently the people committing these crimes have absolutely nothing to lose. We should be giving them something to cherish that will give worth to their lives. There are many wonderful people right now who do that kind of thing on a local or individual level, but it needs to be made a regional effort.

Of course I'm aware that I'm telling these people what they need, but they're out raping and murdering, so I'm comfortable with that. Yes, there are other options.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:39 pm UTC

An attractive solution, however a hard sell considering that a unified effort would stall in the UN. The US doesn't have the resources to go it alone on this, nor should it shoulder the burden in attempting to "uplift" an entire continent. Because if you fix the DRoC, they will be flooded with refugees from Zambia, Angola, Tanzania, Uganda, and Sudan. And considering Africa is the second largest continent out there, that's a lot of lifting up. Even if you take all of that money from wars, which I know are a pet peeve of yours, the more likely place to put them is to fixing our own house here in the US. I know that I wouldn't be interested in sending my tax dollars to Africa when there are kids on my own street that I feed because their families can't afford to provide both food and health care. Fixing our own economy is going to be a decades long undertaking, even if you pulled much of DoDs budget. And pulling the entire DoD budget is a completely unfeasible solution, considering only a fool thinks it likely that a defenseless America wouldn't become the most attractive target for people world-wide.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:49 pm UTC

I agree that it's hardimpossible to sell. American support for such a conflict would dwindle quickly once oil prices rise to the levels other countries are paying. I don't think it's a stretch to say that millions of USans would literally go up in arms if gas prices were $2.75/gal one month and $7+/gal the next.

It's not going to be possible to convince most people to do something that would cost the country our defense budget+additional personal money, even if the only reason gas prices are so low is because we've paid off/gone to bat for the right people, politically speaking. Once a baseline is established, whatever the reason behind it, changing it incurs a ridiculous amount of resistance.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:51 pm UTC

Well, I didn't say I thought America would do it. I think America should do it, or at the very least drop the "philanthropy at gunpoint" rhetoric for their Iraq and Afghanistan adventures if they're not willing to pay for actual philanthropy, but I realise that the public likely wouldn't support it. I just can't understand why anyone would object to governments spending to defeat endemic gang rape:
"What's this tax for?"

"It's for preventing mass rape, and it's actually working. Instances are down year on year the past five years!"

"Are they American?"

"No, they're African."

"Fuck that, I was gonna buy a TiVo with this cash, rape victims can just deal."


Exaggerating, of course, but I'm really seeing a strong streak of that in anyone who would support expenditure on one supposedly "for their own good" foreign intervention, but not one to save African women from rape.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:55 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Exaggerating, of course, but I'm really seeing a strong streak of that in anyone who would support expenditure on one supposedly "for their own good" foreign intervention, but not one to save African women from rape.

It's a question of baselines and what we are used to. I don't believe it makes people necessarily worse than they already were to be angry that they're losing the money they worked for in support of a cause that they don't care about.

We shouldn't be judging people for caring about one cause over another, either. There is only so much time and money in one day that a person can devote to causes. If I care intensely about gay rights on my community and spend money/time supporting them, plus I donate to the United Way in my community, why is it up to you or anyone else to say I'm a bad person for not also spending my money on African women?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:57 pm UTC

And I do totally care about the problem--this is a terrible thing and I wish it would go away. But it's not the only terrible thing. I can't afford to devote my money to solving every terrible thing out there.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

I'm not at all saying you don't care about the problem, but the fact is, you don't own your taxes. It's not your money for you to object to its use in the assistance of others, it belongs to the nation. It's the national policies that I wish would change, and people opposing that change that I see as opposing assistance for rape victims. You vote for people with broad fiscal policies, but not for specific expenditures. If the government proposes an expenditure on preventing rape in Africa, and you object to that, then you very much object to helping those people, as opposed to the use of your money to help them. If you at the same time support wasteful military expenditures on the grounds that they are used to prosecute wars for the good of local populations, you are fairly hypocritical in my book.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:20 pm UTC

Dream wrote:If the government proposes an expenditure on preventing rape in Africa, and you object to that, then you very much object to helping those people, as opposed to the use of your money to help them. If you at the same time support wasteful military expenditures on the grounds that they are used to prosecute wars for the good of local populations, you are fairly hypocritical in my book.

If paying to prevent rape in Africa results in gas prices going up to ridiculously high levels (and it probably will because we'd be diverting funds from foreign oil interests), you're asking more of many American citizens than they are able to give. The opportunity cost is a big issue here. It's not as simple as saying people are good or bad. People have a finite amount of financial resources and you're asking for way more than it appears on the surface. That has to be taken into account, too.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:51 am UTC

meatyochre wrote:If paying to prevent rape in Africa results in gas prices going up to ridiculously high levels (and it probably will because we'd be diverting funds from foreign oil interests), you're asking more of many American citizens than they are able to give.

If your markets require bloodshed in Iraq to keep petrol prices low, then fuck your markets and everyone who supports them. The rest of the world pays much higher prices at the pump and yet retain functioning economies, so you're basically saying that oil markets run America, and America has to obey them. Even if that means funding expeditionary wars instead of humanitarian assistance. I repeat: Fuck. That.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:55 am UTC

Dream wrote:
meatyochre wrote:If paying to prevent rape in Africa results in gas prices going up to ridiculously high levels (and it probably will because we'd be diverting funds from foreign oil interests), you're asking more of many American citizens than they are able to give.

If your markets require bloodshed in Iraq to keep petrol prices low, then fuck your markets and everyone who supports them. The rest of the world pays much higher prices at the pump and yet retain functioning economies, so you're basically saying that oil markets run America, and America has to obey them. Even if that means funding expeditionary wars instead of humanitarian assistance. I repeat: Fuck. That.

Are you also going to advocate that while our gas prices go up to the levels in the rest of the world, that our healthcare improves to be in line with the rest of the first world's healthcare? That our workers get the smaller workweeks and longer vacations enjoyed by most of Europe?

Because if not, fuck. that.

In other words, different strokes for different countries--all things are not equal and it shouldn't be presumed that American citizens can afford to pay for a war on rape. It's not fair to advocate extracting cash from the citizenry in one area without giving them something in return in another.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:06 am UTC

I prefer the "arm and train the women" solution to this problem. If the choice is between being raped to death and being shot to death, most people would prefer, I suppose, to die fighting back. And there is the chance that the rapists would be the ones dying. Sounds like a lose less-win situation.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:07 am UTC

meatyochre wrote:Are you also going to advocate that while our gas prices go up to the levels in the rest of the world, that our healthcare improves to be in line with the rest of the first world's healthcare? That our workers get the smaller workweeks and longer vacations enjoyed by most of Europe?
Yes.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Vaniver » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:44 am UTC

Dream wrote:There are many wonderful people right now who do that kind of thing on a local or individual level, but it needs to be made a regional effort.
I do so love me some White Man's Burden. Whatever made us give up on that?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:49 am UTC

Imperialist tendencies got the better of us white folk. Or something close to that.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Gorillamb » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:28 pm UTC

Ok, let me “hip” you to what is really going on. There is no “formal” government doing anything! It’s just a bunch of outlaws (Yes! Really) outlaws that , just as in the early history of the United States, lived off the land and did whatever they wanted just because they could. And that is where the marshal came in. the town sheriff. There is no law if no one is there to say…….”NO! YOU, can’t do that!!!”

You have a so called “army” of misfits made up of …. rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists (Ok, just kidding about the Methodists)……all jockeying for a chance to do a # 6 on any innocent little village that they come across and can take what they want.
What? You don’t know what a #6 is? Well, that's where they go a-ridin' into town, a-whompin' and a-whumpin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life. Except the women folks, of course. And then, after they’ve done the most heinous and dastardly deeds known to man………they end up later that night at the #6 dance.
And that’s when they rape the shit out of them!!!!
I know it’s not funny, but if you want to argue about who is giving money to whom and what government should be doing what, you’ll be just another one of those “ner D wells” speaking your little mind and feeling sorry for all those women and children that have to experience a most terrible ordeal.
Do you think that when some vicious renegade marauder is standing over one of those ladies, she is saying to herself…”Gee, I sure do wish my government would do something about this!”
And what about you!? What will you be saying if on some dark night when and if a really bad man attacks you and threatens to do the same to you……..will you be so matter of fact about it?

And to the other person………TIME!!!!! You really want all those people to just sit there and wait for their turn at the “bendover” bonanza “Barbie-Q”? If “Barbie’s dream house” was situated in a village like this, then Ken better “saddle up”, round up a posse and ride herd on those VERY……….VERY……..BAD…………..GUYS!!!!!!!
I have a real problem with people today that just want to tell others that it is the governments fault or those people are just going to have to wait until things change or don’t interfere.
I should not have to go into all the reason that we fought the Germans and Japanese in WWII.

I do not condone the modern day KKK, but the original group that started it were just vigilantes made up of good and honest Americans protecting their families from “outlaws” because there was no one standing up for them. And what of the Minute Men of the “Revolutionary War”.
When the British backed Hessians invaded America, it was they who stopped them from doing the same thing that these FDLR “outlaws” are doing now. And the same as the Taliban…. And all the other “misfits” and …well, you’ve seen the list.
I so like the person’s idea of arming and training the villagers. Hey, does anyone remember “The Magnificent Seven”? Just make the movie in Africa this time!
The “situation” is beyond the “WORST” stages. Annihilation of the problem is needed now but without the new military’s very inappropriate “Rules of Engagement”!
AND THAT IS WHY AN INDEPENDENT MERCENARY ARMY IS NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, such men exist! Go in……….do the job that needs to be done and………….get out!
Don’t you think that the next time some “slap happy” bad guys think about invading a nearby innocent village that they will say………”What if “those guys” are there?”
As for “impressing” the leaders of the Congo……….show the common villagers that there is an alternative to living in fear and they will change their own country!
Some times you just need a good example in the right direction.
The US always seems to stop short of solving the problems resulting from diplomatic interference into a country’s exposure of “Nation Building”.
Like Klaatu said….. “I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.”
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:44 pm UTC

So I was thinking about possible solutions that avoid many of the problems that arise here, and I was thinking that if we could get Egypt to fund an agricultural project, and convince Russia to donate peace keeping forces, in exchange for some mineral rights, and maybe convince some of the more stable African countries to help with starting infrastructure projects. That way it is multi-cultural, doesn't require any one country to go it alone, and everyone may be able to get something beneficial out of it.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Texas_Ben » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:47 pm UTC

Gorillamb wrote:Cowboys and superheroes

Wat

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Gorillamb » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:48 pm UTC

And then, again..........you just have to stomp some ASS at times!!!

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:50 pm UTC

Please refrain from feeding Troll #6. He's a volatile specimen, and we don't want him exploding all over this sector of the internets.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Zamfir » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:35 pm UTC

I think he its actually pretty amusing, andI would like to more of his deep insight in centrala African politics.

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Vaniver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:15 pm UTC

Gorillamb wrote:I do not condone the modern day KKK, but the original group that started it were just vigilantes made up of good and honest Americans protecting their families from “outlaws” because there was no one standing up for them.
What? The original KKK was an organ of the Democratic party aimed at suppressing the Republican vote.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Gorillamb » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:58 pm UTC

Sorry , but you’re wrong about that!
It was started my Nathan Bedford Forrest III, a “good-ol’- Southern boy” from Tennessee.
He was tired of all those Northern “Carpetbaggers” commin down the pike and messing with decent Southern folk!
But you go right ahead and keep on belivin' in just wut they learned you in that scool of yearn.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby savanik » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:06 pm UTC

I'm going to stray into political theory here for a second. Bear with me. A question that distinctly needs answering is, 'Does a government exist in this area?'

Governmental authority stems from the ability of that government to defend its people and its borders. If a government claims an area is under its jurisdiction and either does not have the will or the ability to enforce its edicts, then it cannot be considered to 'govern' the region.

If these troops are truly 'rebel forces' and not merely an armed branch of the government's military raping and executing its own citizens, then the government is incapable of enforcing its edicts in that area. Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

If these troops are an armed branch of the government, then the government is in violation of basic rights, and America has every right, under the U.N. charter, to pass an amendment to a resolution to sanction the area until such time in the future as necessary to allow the government to cease the violations, at which time the U.N. will... pass further sanctions.

Or we can just invade, kill everyone who resists the occupation, and claim it as a U.S. colonial territory and put a proper government in place. How can it POSSIBLY get any worse than the current situation? Really? No, really. If anyone has a good answer to how it could be worse to have a U.S. occupation than having massive rebel rape-gangs roaming the countryside, pillaging, raping, looting, and executing people? This sounds like a bad post-apocalyptic novel here!
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:09 pm UTC

Right. How could the US being imperialistic possibly go wrong?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Zamfir » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:20 pm UTC

savanik wrote:I'm going to stray into political theory here for a second. Bear with me. A question that distinctly needs answering is, 'Does a government exist in this area?'

Governmental authority stems from the ability of that government to defend its people and its borders. If a government claims an area is under its jurisdiction and either does not have the will or the ability to enforce its edicts, then it cannot be considered to 'govern' the region.

If these troops are truly 'rebel forces' and not merely an armed branch of the government's military raping and executing its own citizens, then the government is incapable of enforcing its edicts in that area. Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

If these troops are an armed branch of the government, then the government is in violation of basic rights, and America has every right, under the U.N. charter, to pass an amendment to a resolution to sanction the area until such time in the future as necessary to allow the government to cease the violations, at which time the U.N. will... pass further sanctions.

Or we can just invade, kill everyone who resists the occupation, and claim it as a U.S. colonial territory and put a proper government in place. How can it POSSIBLY get any worse than the current situation? Really? No, really. If anyone has a good answer to how it could be worse to have a U.S. occupation than having massive rebel rape-gangs roaming the countryside, pillaging, raping, looting, and executing people? This sounds like a bad post-apocalyptic novel here!


The current situation is actuallya lot better than ten years ago, when Rwanda did exactly what you describe, move in, take over, install their own government and start the plunder.

At first, it even looked better than mobutu, but in a few years all countries in the region jumped in to get their piece if the action. The result was so bad that people call the current level of rape and massacre 'peace'

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby paddyfool » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:11 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The current situation is actuallya lot better than ten years ago, when Rwanda did exactly what you describe, move in, take over, install their own government and start the plunder.

At first, it even looked better than mobutu, but in a few years all countries in the region jumped in to get their piece if the action. The result was so bad that people call the current level of rape and massacre 'peace'


This.

What the FDLR are doing is tragic, and utterly wrong. However, the 2nd Congo War killed millions. Marching in there again, while most* of the DRC is at peace, could quite easily get the whole mess started again.

* It's a big country, and North Kivu, the main area they've been operating in and screwing over, is just 1 out of the country's 26 provinces - number 13 on this map.

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:47 am UTC

savanik wrote:Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

I am uncertain where you got this opinion from. There are LOTS of places which are ungoverned, but doesn't necessarily mean that they can be owned. Such as many parts of the ocean. If there's a oil resource around (past the generic 200-mile boundary), no one single country can claim them. Not to mention that you assume that anything ungoverned can be usurped. Not to mention that you are using your own definition of government.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Dream » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:10 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
savanik wrote:Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

I am uncertain where you got this opinion from.

It came of ignorant, privileged stupidity. Ignorance of the rights of self determination, privilege preventing basic empathy, and stupidity leading to dismissal of the consequences of previous military adventures. No further explanation necessary.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:31 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
savanik wrote:Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

I am uncertain where you got this opinion from.

It came of ignorant, privileged stupidity. Ignorance of the rights of self determination, privilege preventing basic empathy, and stupidity leading to dismissal of the consequences of previous military adventures. No further explanation necessary.


Self-determination? You really think the people there have self-determined their government?

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:39 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Dream wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
savanik wrote:Since this area is thus obviously ungoverned, America has every right to colonize this resource rich, unsettled (except for a few minor aborigine tribes), virgin land.

I am uncertain where you got this opinion from.

It came of ignorant, privileged stupidity. Ignorance of the rights of self determination, privilege preventing basic empathy, and stupidity leading to dismissal of the consequences of previous military adventures. No further explanation necessary.


Self-determination? You really think the people there have self-determined their government?

Just because they have not doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:08 am UTC

And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:16 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

That they retain their freedom? Their rights as they see fit?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:41 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
BlackSails wrote:And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

That they retain their freedom? Their rights as they see fit?


Just for clarification, are you saying that rights are subject to public opinion?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:47 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
BlackSails wrote:And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

That they retain their freedom? Their rights as they see fit?


Just for clarification, are you saying that rights are subject to public opinion?

Yes, in a sense. If not public opinion, who or what else should it be subject to?

To be exact, public opinion is a little more complicated than that, since there is a LOT of ways to measure public opinion. But inherently, the basic factor is that people should be allowed to retain their freedom (without freedom, they can't choose their rights. It's a catch clause.) first, and from there, follow their own decisions. The basic flaw with anyone stepping in, is that we are inherently biased, so we cannot effectively ensure full freedom of choice, and indirectly, full freedom of rights.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Silas » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:03 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
BlackSails wrote:And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

That they retain their freedom? Their rights as they see fit?

Clarify: are you saying that, without Western colonialism, the locals- some of them at least- retain their rights and freedoms to rape and pillage? Or that the the current system of rapine, plunder, and itinerant despotism does a better job of providing the Kivulese with their rights and freedoms than a colonial government would?

No, really. What rights or freedoms are provided or protected by the current authorities that wouldn't be better served by an outside nation taking over?
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:12 am UTC

Silas wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
BlackSails wrote:And how is any other country imposing a government on them an different than what they have now, other than that most imperialist powers wont sponsor rape-gangs?

That they retain their freedom? Their rights as they see fit?

Clarify: are you saying that, without Western colonialism, the locals- some of them at least- retain their rights and freedoms to rape and pillage? Or that the the current system of rapine, plunder, and itinerant despotism does a better job of providing the Kivulese with their rights and freedoms than a colonial government would?

No, really. What rights or freedoms are provided or protected by the current authorities that wouldn't be better served by an outside nation taking over?

1) Right of government.
2) Right of moral and ethical beliefs.
3) Right of cultural heritage.
I'm sure there are others. The problem is, as you said, the rights and freedom to rape and pillage is indeed a right and freedom. Claiming otherwise is automatically enforcing your ethical beliefs on them.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby meatyochre » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:15 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:the rights and freedom to rape and pillage is indeed a right and freedom. Claiming otherwise is automatically enforcing your ethical beliefs on them.

There is no humane ethical system that states raping is a right. A rapist's right to freedom ends where the victim's body begins. Anything else is a gross human rights violation.
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Re: Rwandan rebels (FDLR) gang-raped 150 women one weekend

Postby Hawknc » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:18 am UTC

For most of the civilised world, ethical relativism stops at the UDHR. So, no, there is no inherent right to rape and pillage.


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