Honour Killings

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Honour Killings

Postby Dream » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:17 pm UTC

In lieu of a trigger warning, I will not quote a single sentence of these articles here. Nothing I could quote could possibly be safe for some people to read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 72201.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 73142.html

The first is an extensive description of the results of an investigation by The Independent into honour killings around the world and the second is a shorter piece about the connivance and guilt of relatives in the crimes. The author, Robert Fisk, is in my opinion one of the finest journalists working today. He is resident in Beirut and regularly reports on crimes committed by Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Egypt and further afield. He is worth listening to.

Of course, no comment is necessary on the contents of the articles, as nothing could possibly do justice to the response they will doubtless evoke.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby The Reaper » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:44 pm UTC

Egh. >:(

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Texas_Ben » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:50 am UTC

Fuck that.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:51 am UTC

IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:56 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.


I don't quite think you understand what the fairly euphemistic term "Honour Killing" means, and I'm not convinced you read the articles. If you did both of those things, and still think that, then I simply don't have the articulation to describe how horrified I am.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:58 am UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Kyrn wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.


I don't quite think you understand what the fairly euphemistic term "Honour Killing" means, and I'm not convinced you read the articles. If you did both of those things, and still think that, then I simply don't have the articulation to describe how horrified I am.


I know what it means. And I believe that they have a very warped concept of honour, that somehow absolves the taint just because the tainted subject is gone, as opposed to the source of the taint itself.

EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:05 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Kyrn wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.


I don't quite think you understand what the fairly euphemistic term "Honour Killing" means, and I'm not convinced you read the articles. If you did both of those things, and still think that, then I simply don't have the articulation to describe how horrified I am.


I know what it means. And I believe that they have a very warped concept of honour, that somehow absolves the taint just because the tainted subject is gone, as opposed to the source of the taint itself.

EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.


But the "taint" is often nothing more than wanting to self-determine over issues like their choice of life partner... You seem to mean something other than what you're actually appearing to say.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:08 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.

/facepalm

I'm glad you enjoy the privileged of agreeing with such a stance. Personally, I'm just happy my decision to not be exactly like my father or my religious community, didn't result in a brutal slaying.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:23 am UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Kyrn wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with honour killings. So long as it's the actual culprit which tarnished the honour that's killed/punished, as opposed to planting the blame on others.


I don't quite think you understand what the fairly euphemistic term "Honour Killing" means, and I'm not convinced you read the articles. If you did both of those things, and still think that, then I simply don't have the articulation to describe how horrified I am.


I know what it means. And I believe that they have a very warped concept of honour, that somehow absolves the taint just because the tainted subject is gone, as opposed to the source of the taint itself.

EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.


But the "taint" is often nothing more than wanting to self-determine over issues like their choice of life partner... You seem to mean something other than what you're actually appearing to say.

Admittedly I am a little singularly focused on one of the main causes of honour killings (namely being raped). For other cases, the whole concept of honour still appears to be warped. Or more precisely, the whole cultural stance is warped, and has little relation to the act itself; the honour killing is just a multiplier. Whether or not there is honour killing, a cultural stance that forbids choosing lovers, treats females as lesser than males, and different societal tiers as incompatible, among other artificial and unfair constructs, is problematic in and of itself.

Or in short, there are 3 different issues.
1) Whether killing is acceptable for resolving an honour crisis.
2) Whether an honour crisis can be resolved by taking away the source of the taint, or the tainted subject.
3) What constitutes an honour crisis.

I admit that (2) and (3) is problematic. I do not admit (1) by itself is problematic. I admit that in specific distinct cases like where a rape is involved, that (1) is acceptable, so long as it's the source that is taken away, as opposed to the tainted subject. I do not admit that all instances of honour crisis is justified.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:28 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:Admittedly I am a little singularly focused on one of the main causes of honour killings (namely being raped). For other cases, the whole concept of honour still appears to be warped. Or more precisely, the whole cultural stance is warped, and has little relation to the act itself; the honour killing is just a multiplier. Whether or not there is honour killing, a cultural stance that forbids choosing lovers, treats females as lesser than males, and different societal tiers as incompatible, among other artificial and unfair constructs, is problematic in and of itself.


You should probably have made that clear from the off!
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:30 am UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Kyrn wrote:Admittedly I am a little singularly focused on one of the main causes of honour killings (namely being raped). For other cases, the whole concept of honour still appears to be warped. Or more precisely, the whole cultural stance is warped, and has little relation to the act itself; the honour killing is just a multiplier. Whether or not there is honour killing, a cultural stance that forbids choosing lovers, treats females as lesser than males, and different societal tiers as incompatible, among other artificial and unfair constructs, is problematic in and of itself.


You should probably have made that clear from the off!


Yeah, I probably should have, apologies. Hopefully this should be clearer.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby BlackSails » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:42 am UTC

Being raped is by no means the only cause of honor killings.

In druze society for instance, a female that leaves the community (to say, go to America) will be hunted down and killed by her brothers.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:00 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.


Considering that most of Bushido originated in a book written in America, well, I don't agree with Seppuku.

Not to mention that Suicide and Homicide are two entirely different types of 'cide.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:44 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Kyrn wrote:EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.


Considering that most of Bushido originated in a book written in America, well, I don't agree with Seppuku.

Not to mention that Suicide and Homicide are two entirely different types of 'cide.


On the other hand there is a definite link between (forced) suicide and honour killings. One thing the article does seem to have 'missed' with its focus on the Middle-East / Central Asia is that this practice is at least as old as the Roman Republic, there are two examples in Livy I can mention off the top of my head.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:06 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Kyrn wrote:EDIT: I mean, compare Seppuku to this.


Considering that most of Bushido originated in a book written in America, well, I don't agree with Seppuku.

Seppuku was an act committed far before Bushido was written down by Nitobe Inazō, so, what are you talking about?

Kyrn wrote:I admit that (2) and (3) is problematic. I do not admit (1) by itself is problematic. I admit that in specific distinct cases like where a rape is involved, that (1) is acceptable, so long as it's the source that is taken away, as opposed to the tainted subject. I do not admit that all instances of honour crisis is justified.

Would I be incorrect to assume you are simply referring to rendering rape a capital punishment? And that you are in fact not advocating for honor killings, but instead just changing around a bit which crimes are punishable by death?
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Dream » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:54 pm UTC

Kyrn is advocating vigilante death sentences based on a neanderthal idea of shame, stigma and stain associated with sexual victimhood, and at the same time prioritising the restitution of the victim's relatives before that of the victim and before the upholding of law above personal vendetta.

It's got everything the honour killers have, except for the murder of the victim. It's disgusting.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:14 pm UTC

Kyrn wrote:I admit that in specific distinct cases like where a rape is involved, that (1) is acceptable, so long as it's the source that is taken away, as opposed to the tainted subject.

Am I misunderstanding this to mean that the rapist, and not the raped, can be murdered vigilante style?
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Dauric » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:37 pm UTC

-facepalm-

We have governments carry out punishments for a reason, namely that a government is (theoretically) dispassionate about the outcome and can render a balanced judgment. Family members of the wronged will never be dispassionate and the outcome will never be just. This is why civilized countries around the world have made vigilantism illegal.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby minno » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:13 pm UTC

So, women can be killed (with no repercussions for the killers) for being the victim of rape, having an affair, being pregnant before marriage, or talking to a man who is not a relative or husband. There was even an example of a woman being killed for having an unfamiliar number on her cell phone.

The general conclusion I can draw is that the idea behind these laws is that a woman is intended to be nothing but a baby-making factory for her husband. Despicable.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby pollywog » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:43 am UTC

Dauric wrote:-facepalm-

We have governments carry out punishments for a reason, namely that a government is (theoretically) dispassionate about the outcome and can render a balanced judgment. Family members of the wronged will never be dispassionate and the outcome will never be just. This is why civilized countries around the world have made vigilantism illegal.

Batman's a nifty comic-book character, Let's keep him in the fiction section where he belongs.
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minno wrote:The general conclusion I can draw is that the idea behind these laws is that a woman is intended to be nothing but a baby-making factory for her husband. Despicable.
Not entirely. Someone has to take care of the babies as well.

^^^ Wrote that before I read the article. Really really wish I'd left it there.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 am UTC

Dream wrote:Kyrn is advocating vigilante death sentences based on a neanderthal idea of shame, stigma and stain associated with sexual victimhood, and at the same time prioritising the restitution of the victim's relatives before that of the victim and before the upholding of law above personal vendetta.

It's got everything the honour killers have, except for the murder of the victim. It's disgusting.

Don't forget his idea that rape victims are 'tainted'. I suppose he thinks they should't have gotten themselves raped. He's just magnanimous enough to allow rape victims to live despite their dishonourable actions.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:09 am UTC

Dauric wrote:-facepalm-

We have governments carry out punishments for a reason, namely that a government is (theoretically) dispassionate about the outcome and can render a balanced judgment. Family members of the wronged will never be dispassionate and the outcome will never be just. This is why civilized countries around the world have made vigilantism illegal.

Batman's a nifty comic-book character, Let's keep him in the fiction section where he belongs.

Just an issue: Honour killings are not mutually exclusive from a justice system. It does mean a death penalty carried out by the family in the situation where honour is broken (which can be integrated into the justice system itself). Admittedly I'm not using the "Human Rights Watch" definition, but mainly because the focus within that definition is much too narrow.

Dream wrote:Kyrn is advocating vigilante death sentences based on a neanderthal idea of shame, stigma and stain associated with sexual victimhood, and at the same time prioritising the restitution of the victim's relatives before that of the victim and before the upholding of law above personal vendetta.

It's got everything the honour killers have, except for the murder of the victim. It's disgusting.

I do not know where you got that idea. Rape is shameful. The question is on who the shame lies on.

Diadem wrote:Don't forget his idea that rape victims are 'tainted'. I suppose he thinks they should't have gotten themselves raped. He's just magnanimous enough to allow rape victims to live despite their dishonourable actions.

Misinterpretation alert.

Rape causes taint. The taint lies with the rapist, not the raped.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Hawknc » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:22 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:Just an issue: Honour killings are not mutually exclusive from a justice system. It does mean a death penalty carried out by the family in the situation where honour is broken (which can be integrated into the justice system itself). Admittedly I'm not using the "Human Rights Watch" definition, but mainly because the focus within that definition is much too narrow.

In the context of the article posted, honour killings are specifically exclusive to state-sponsored justice. In fact, I'm having a hard time imagining a justice system where the death penalty can be carried out by the family where none of "the family" have the title of HRH.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:33 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Kyrn wrote:Just an issue: Honour killings are not mutually exclusive from a justice system. It does mean a death penalty carried out by the family in the situation where honour is broken (which can be integrated into the justice system itself). Admittedly I'm not using the "Human Rights Watch" definition, but mainly because the focus within that definition is much too narrow.

In the context of the article posted, honour killings are specifically exclusive to state-sponsored justice. In fact, I'm having a hard time imagining a justice system where the death penalty can be carried out by the family where none of "the family" have the title of HRH.

Just make "loss of honour" an acceptable legal argument. Some legal systems specifically do not treat honour killings as a crime (or treat honour killings as a substantially crime than other types of murder), and can be seen as a sort of legal validation of such "crimes" (though this can be indirectly seen as legally-acceptable vigilantism). Neither of this would be contrary to what honour killing is, and it's effects.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Hawknc » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:39 am UTC

Those would be the legal systems that allow a mentally retarded 16 year old to be killed after she was raped, to preserve the family's honour. Why are you defending any system that permits that to happen?

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Kyrn » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:44 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:Those would be the legal systems that allow a mentally retarded 16 year old to be killed after she was raped, to preserve the family's honour. Why are you defending any system that permits that to happen?

Did I? Please look back through my arguments. They do not stand separate from each other.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Malice » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:21 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
Hawknc wrote:
Kyrn wrote:Just an issue: Honour killings are not mutually exclusive from a justice system. It does mean a death penalty carried out by the family in the situation where honour is broken (which can be integrated into the justice system itself). Admittedly I'm not using the "Human Rights Watch" definition, but mainly because the focus within that definition is much too narrow.

In the context of the article posted, honour killings are specifically exclusive to state-sponsored justice. In fact, I'm having a hard time imagining a justice system where the death penalty can be carried out by the family where none of "the family" have the title of HRH.

Just make "loss of honour" an acceptable legal argument. Some legal systems specifically do not treat honour killings as a crime (or treat honour killings as a substantially crime than other types of murder), and can be seen as a sort of legal validation of such "crimes" (though this can be indirectly seen as legally-acceptable vigilantism). Neither of this would be contrary to what honour killing is, and it's effects.


Kyrn, the problem with state sanctioned honor killings is that such killings bypass the court system in regards to the rapist. The point of the court system is determine innocence or guilt based on objective, careful examination of the evidence. Your system would lead to innocent lives being lost, because a grieving family is the opposite of objective. To use an example suggested earlier, imagine this case:

A woman is raped. She refuses to identify her rapist. A mysterious number on her phone is discovered. The owner of the number is found and killed by the woman's grieving father in an attempt to regain his honor. It then comes to light that the owner of the number was the rape victim's therapist and she was actually raped by somebody completely different. No honor has been regained and an innocent person has been killed.

What you should be arguing for is that, once the rapist is apprehended, tried in a fair court of law, convicted, and sentenced to death, the family members of the victim be allowed to carry out the sentence. In this way they regain honor and against the right person (to the best of our system's ability to discern).
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Eowiel » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:03 am UTC

I think Kyrn is, intentionally or not, using another definition for the term honour killing than this which is generally used. In general, when the term "honour killings" is used, it's meant to refer to a killing in which a family, clan,.. kills a member of their "group" that has dishonoured them but with the important detail that the reason for this dishonour is often not the fault of the victim and even if it is, the dishonour is not caused by something that is or should be considered a crime (adultery, being raped, non compliance with a pre-arranged wedding,...)

Kyrn, is , in my opinion, using a much broader definition in which an honour killing is whichever killing happens because someones honour has been damaged. Which actually could encompass almost every crime thinkable. So for the sake of discussion I think it would be wise to stick to the usual definition of what an honour killing is or at least be clear what meaning you are using if it's not the traditional meaning.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:56 pm UTC

Kyrn wrote:
Diadem wrote:Don't forget his idea that rape victims are 'tainted'. I suppose he thinks they should't have gotten themselves raped. He's just magnanimous enough to allow rape victims to live despite their dishonourable actions.

Misinterpretation alert.

Rape causes taint. The taint lies with the rapist, not the raped.

You said, and I quote:
Kyrn wrote:I admit that in specific distinct cases like where a rape is involved, that (1) is acceptable, so long as it's the source that is taken away, as opposed to the tainted subject. I do not admit that all instances of honour crisis is justified.

I did not misrepresent your words at all, you are literally saying there that rape victims are tainted.

Which is disgusting.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Zamfir » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:21 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Kyrn wrote:
Diadem wrote:Don't forget his idea that rape victims are 'tainted'. I suppose he thinks they should't have gotten themselves raped. He's just magnanimous enough to allow rape victims to live despite their dishonourable actions.

Misinterpretation alert.

Rape causes taint. The taint lies with the rapist, not the raped.

You said, and I quote:
Kyrn wrote:I admit that in specific distinct cases like where a rape is involved, that (1) is acceptable, so long as it's the source that is taken away, as opposed to the tainted subject. I do not admit that all instances of honour crisis is justified.

I did not misrepresent your words at all, you are literally saying there that rape victims are tainted.

Which is disgusting.

What are you trying to say? Societies that kill rape victim see them as tainted. That's not Kyrn's wish, it's an observation.

Kyrn's suggestion is to get them from killing the victim to killing the rapist, which would be significant progress. Even if they still see the victim as tainted. Others suggest, wisely IMO, that punishment is better left to a legal system. But that is possible even the society sees the victim still as tainted.

Removing, or lessening the stigma of being raped is good too, but is not something that can be accomplish by force or law.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:32 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Batman's a nifty comic-book character, Let's keep him in the fiction section where he belongs.

But batman doesn't kill! (I think they changed him to never use guns or kill after batman #1 or w/e one it was with Strange's monster men) :(

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby savanik » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:10 pm UTC

If anyone here hasn't read 'The Economics of Duels' I highly recommend you do. It provides vital insight into honour killings.

The motiviation behind these crimes isn't just some nebulous 'taint' that stigmatizes the women. It's economic, and has to do with inheritance law.

In a patriarchal inheritance society, men inherit property of their elders. Women are simply property used to bind two families closer together, such as in alliances. In other words, men can bring home the bacon just by marrying into a powerful family, and women are a potentially dangerous liability to your family's assets.

The reason that rape is of a particular condemning nature is because patrimonal lineage is highly valued in a society with those rules. If your wife has a child with another man, that man now has claim on your property when you die. Depending on the inheritance law, possibly all of it! So long as your wife is a virgin when she arrives and you closely guard her so she doesn't have any relations with other men, you can be certain that the children she bears are yours, and no third party is going to come along with a claim. Once a woman has been raped, all bets are off - the kids could belong to anyone.

To address these issues, you have to address the root causes: the patricial inheritance, and the archaic laws that surround it. Without addressing those deeply rooted cultural issues, you won't be able to stop this sort of crime.
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:01 pm UTC

Isn't the typical answer is to overwhelm their cultural ideas with our own? Have countries taken steps to make sure they aren't being socially isolated?

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Mr Pete
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Mr Pete » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 pm UTC

savanik wrote:If anyone here hasn't read 'The Economics of Duels' I highly recommend you do. It provides vital insight into honour killings.
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In order to relate this to the dueling all the people involved have to be narcissistic in relation to women. Women are not people in their own right, but property, status, a means to children, to lands etc. Not just the people involved directly, the rest of the society enables it and so must also have this attitude (pakistan, for example, is purportedly a democracy, so in order for this state of affairs to continue the majority of the population is complicit. This is reinforced by a lack of any protest). So to change this you need to change the attitudes of the majority of the populations of these areas, which will be a very tall order.

(clearly not just due to the inheritance laws, murder of other males who could put in a claim in this way would be equally common if this were the case, therefore misogyny on a grand scale is also at play)

This is as horrible as the missing hundreds of thousands of women.

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Rinsaikeru
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:02 pm UTC

savanik wrote:If anyone here hasn't read 'The Economics of Duels' I highly recommend you do. It provides vital insight into honour killings.

The motiviation behind these crimes isn't just some nebulous 'taint' that stigmatizes the women. It's economic, and has to do with inheritance law.

In a patriarchal inheritance society, men inherit property of their elders. Women are simply property used to bind two families closer together, such as in alliances. In other words, men can bring home the bacon just by marrying into a powerful family, and women are a potentially dangerous liability to your family's assets.

The reason that rape is of a particular condemning nature is because patrimonal lineage is highly valued in a society with those rules. If your wife has a child with another man, that man now has claim on your property when you die. Depending on the inheritance law, possibly all of it! So long as your wife is a virgin when she arrives and you closely guard her so she doesn't have any relations with other men, you can be certain that the children she bears are yours, and no third party is going to come along with a claim. Once a woman has been raped, all bets are off - the kids could belong to anyone.

To address these issues, you have to address the root causes: the patricial inheritance, and the archaic laws that surround it. Without addressing those deeply rooted cultural issues, you won't be able to stop this sort of crime.



I've not read this but I've read similar articles that discuss the same concept. The basic understanding I got from it was as follows:

In a patriarchal honour bound society:

1. Men gain honour through violence (being a soldier, protecting what is his etc)
2. Women do not gain honour, they lose honour. They lose honour by disobeying, by losing their 'purity.'

Once she is raped, killing her rapist will not return her honour in such a society--and so the honour killing returns honour to the family by removing her dishonour.
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Dream
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Dream » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:11 pm UTC

Which is precisely the problem with Kyrn's ideas. They are predicated on the concept of family honour being sleighted by a member of the family being a victim of rape, followed by the family's honour being restituted by murdering a person. Kyrn just shifts the murder-for-restitution from the victim to the perpetrator, without changing the idea that a family having a rape victim among their number is a shame, and that the antidote is killing the responsible party. The victim herself is held secondary to the primary need for the family to save itself the shame of being associated with a victim, whether that is by killing the victim or the perpetrator is almost not relevant. The fundamental motivation is the same.
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Obby
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Obby » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:45 am UTC

Mr Pete wrote:
savanik wrote:In order to relate this to the dueling all the people involved have to be narcissistic in relation to women. Women are not people in their own right, but property, status, a means to children, to lands etc. Not just the people involved directly, the rest of the society enables it and so must also have this attitude (pakistan, for example, is purportedly a democracy, so in order for this state of affairs to continue the majority of the population is complicit. This is reinforced by a lack of any protest). So to change this you need to change the attitudes of the majority of the populations of these areas, which will be a very tall order.

(clearly not just due to the inheritance laws, murder of other males who could put in a claim in this way would be equally common if this were the case, therefore misogyny on a grand scale is also at play)

This is as horrible as the missing hundreds of thousands of women.


While I agree with your idea here, the bolded part is not necessarily true. There are plenty of laws and ideas in plenty of other countries that do not get protested, but are similarly ridiculous (though not always quite as extreme) as honor killing is, that are not the majority view in the host country. To use a much more tame example, it's often cited 'round these parts that there is a law on the books in some mid-west U.S. state (Kansas I think) that bans one from bathing in the nude. However, to suggest that because this law goes unchecked means that the majority of the voters in that area support said law is almost as ridiculous as the law itself.
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This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

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Mr Pete
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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Mr Pete » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:32 pm UTC

Why would people protest a law that is not enforced? No one has been arrested for bathing nude, whereas many women have been murdered with no consequence to the killer.

Also in supporting my point is the Pakistani MP quoted in the article
In the Pakistani parliament, the MP Israrullah Zehri referred to the murders as part of a "centuries-old tradition" which he would "continue to defend".

As a polititian he is unlikely to voice this opinion unless he expects a significant portion of the population to support him, and the rest to not care.

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Re: Honour Killings

Postby Dream » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:48 pm UTC

Here is the concluding article in the series, focusing on Egypt and offering a little more analysis than the previous pieces.
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