Researchers discover how to erase memory

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Zamfir
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:17 pm UTC

I personally think of Aesop and Hans Christian Anderson myself

Aesop really is not fairy tales. At the very least, fairy tales have to pretend to be folk stories.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Triangle_Man » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:15 pm UTC

And soon this new technology will erase the memory of Disney, leaving only the Grimm Bros. versions of these fine stories for us to refer to.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby djkjr » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:36 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Aesop really is not fairy tales. At the very least, fairy tales have to pretend to be folk stories.

What definition of "Fairy Tales" are you relating when considering that it must relate or "pretend" to be a folk story in order to be considered?
Perhaps Aesop's fables may not be considered tales, but not by the reason you have given. I'm just confused.
Not to derail this thread anymore than it already is!
(hey, I tried posting a lot of content concerning the topic, now I'm just going with the wind)

Triangle_Man wrote:And soon this new technology will erase the memory of Disney, leaving only the Grimm Bros. versions of these fine stories for us to refer to.

People no longer want to learn their morals through strife and suffering of characters. The world wants to believe that stories have happy endings. We could "Men In Black" Disney from the worlds mind, but I'd gather, very fairly, that it would be quickly replaced by something else just as diluting.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Telchar » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

This article suffers from bad titling but so does the title from the journal.

They aren't erasing memory. They are erasing the association of memory and conditioned emotional response. Based on what we know about such traumatic associations and their realtive uniqueness it seems unlikely anyone could remove the "fear of big government" because it's not based on a particular event or trigger. The logical underpinnings of a fear of government are more broad.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:32 am UTC

Not fearing a dark room. Not fearing the smell of expensive perfume. Not fearing someone touching the back of your head.

There is definitely use in removing those associations.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Vieto » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:28 am UTC

Bruce Schneier does this subconsciously.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Xeio » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:27 am UTC

Vieto wrote:Saladin's Mom does this subconsciously.
If by that you mean with a roundhouse kick.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Vieto » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Vieto wrote:Saladin's Mom does this subconsciously.
If by that you mean with a roundhouse kick.

Naturally, but that would do that to the entire universe at once!
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby GoC » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:16 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
dicoy wrote:It's only a matter of time until it works on people, and then you'll start waking up in bed with pain in the ass and wet eyes, and won't know what happened.
Rape jokes: the height of hilarity.

Doubly aggravating given the theoretical applications of traumatic memory deletion for rape survivors or others at risk for PTSD.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If a rape is committed and no one remembers it, is it really a rape*?

*does it even matter?
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:18 pm UTC

Yes. It does matter. The same way that it matters if you kill someone and no one remembers. Something was done to someone that should not have been done. Diseases potentially transferred, liberty removed. That's a bullshit argument.
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Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby deerie » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:44 pm UTC

GoC wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:
dicoy wrote:It's only a matter of time until it works on people, and then you'll start waking up in bed with pain in the ass and wet eyes, and won't know what happened.
Rape jokes: the height of hilarity.

Doubly aggravating given the theoretical applications of traumatic memory deletion for rape survivors or others at risk for PTSD.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If a rape is committed and no one remembers it, is it really a rape*?

*does it even matter?


I'm not sure how facetious you're trying to be, but I'm not sure it matters. If you're trying to be funny, there is no conceivable way a rape "joke" can be funny, as has already been pointed out. If you're asking a serious question, then yes, it is rape, and yes, it matters. Rape is about more than just the act; it is about a blatant disregard for the rights and thoughts of others, and that is bad. There are millions of rapes that have taken place that nobody remembers because the victim didn't or couldn't record it, all who knew about it died, or because the victim was killed shortly after or as a result of the effect. These crimes are still crimes.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby iop » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:17 am UTC

GoC wrote:If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If a rape is committed and no one remembers it, is it really a rape*?

*does it even matter?


Yes, the tree makes a sound, since its fall will displace air (I assume that this is not a forest growing in vacuum).

Similarly, the law currently considers forced sexual intercourse as rape even if the person who has been raped is unconscious or drugged at the time, so that they cannot remember the incident.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm UTC

iop wrote:
GoC wrote:If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If a rape is committed and no one remembers it, is it really a rape*?

*does it even matter?


Yes, the tree makes a sound, since its fall will displace air (I assume that this is not a forest growing in vacuum).

Some (non-scientific) definitions of "sound" state that for a pressure wave in the air to be called a "sound", it has to be heard. It's one of those stupid questions that everyone thinks is clever, but can be trivially answered with "it depends on your definition of sound".

As for the "if she doesn't remember, is it rape" thing, obviously yes. I don't see how it would be possible to argue that it isn't.

Here's a thought. If they get this memory erasure thing working for humans, we will no longer be blighted by the old "what has been seen cannot be unseen" meme.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby deerie » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:23 am UTC

I still agree with Telchar's post, it has nothing to do with memory erasing, merely with facilitating extinction training. It seems like adding/removing some protein makes extinction training progress much faster in the case of severely fear-based conditioned responses.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby GoC » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:20 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Yes. It does matter. The same way that it matters if you kill someone and no one remembers.

Killing someone is a permanent very bad effect.

Diseases potentially transferred, liberty removed. That's a bullshit argument.

So if it was guaranteed that there were no diseases transferred it would be ok?
If noone notices have any liberties been removed?

deerie wrote:If you're asking a serious question, then yes, it is rape, and yes, it matters.

It is a serious question. One I was hesitant to raise (despite my curiosity) due to the possibility of getting flamed (scare people away from asking questions and they'll simply not voice them, hence they'll have what are in their minds uncountered arguments for a position you strongly oppose).

Rape is about more than just the act; it is about a blatant disregard for the rights and thoughts of others, and that is bad.

Never been into rights myself (I'm more of the utilitarian camp)...
Disregarding thoughts is not normally considered immoral. If you mean feelings well this drug happens to prevent consequences to them (so the rapist could well have rationalized that the victim's feelings would not be hurt).

SlyReaper:Trees...
Just seeing if it's possible to detach "rape" from "serious immoral act".

Ima stop this one right here - rape is rape, whether it's remembered or not. I'm pretty okay with saying that anyone disagreeing with that is not welcome to the conversation. -Hawk
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Rackum » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:38 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:This article suffers from bad titling but so does the title from the journal.

They aren't erasing memory. They are erasing the association of memory and conditioned emotional response. Based on what we know about such traumatic associations and their realtive uniqueness it seems unlikely anyone could remove the "fear of big government" because it's not based on a particular event or trigger. The logical underpinnings of a fear of government are more broad.

This was my assumption as well and I feel it is the correct one. On that note I wonder if it would be possible to utilize this technique preemptively so as to prevent the fear associated with an impending traumatic event if it was known that it would most likely be encountered very soon (think soldier going into combat).

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:42 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:
Telchar wrote:This article suffers from bad titling but so does the title from the journal.

They aren't erasing memory. They are erasing the association of memory and conditioned emotional response. Based on what we know about such traumatic associations and their realtive uniqueness it seems unlikely anyone could remove the "fear of big government" because it's not based on a particular event or trigger. The logical underpinnings of a fear of government are more broad.

This was my assumption as well and I feel it is the correct one. On that note I wonder if it would be possible to utilize this technique preemptively so as to prevent the fear associated with an impending traumatic event if it was known that it would most likely be encountered very soon (think soldier going into combat).


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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:24 pm UTC

Stop asking me if you fell asleep. You did -- for a little while. And yes, if you'd like you can go now.

;-)
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Rackum » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:52 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Eeeeehhhh, I want to be slightly afraid going into combat. That'll keep me alive. You are not Superman.

Yes, but not paralyzed. Militaries have long sought effective methods of decreasing the effects of the debilitating fear that has always plagued the battelfield. Didn't say that I necessarily agree with its application in this manner, just a conjecture that this could likely be a future line of research on this "procedure."

*Bolded for emphasis

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:48 am UTC

Ok, yeah. If you can decrease the fear response to not-overwhelming levels, then it is good. But removing it entirely is only good for suicide missions, and those are not a good solution ever at any time. Necessary, but not good.
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The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Mazuku » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:15 am UTC

So, does this mean that scienists are close to figuring out where certain memories are kept or is this the beginning of the creation of a mind wiping device?

Maybe this could lead to a new form of death sentence: The Death of Personality, like they use in Babylon 5.
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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Sockmonkey » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:36 am UTC

Mazuku wrote:So, does this mean that scienists are close to figuring out where certain memories are kept or is this the beginning of the creation of a mind wiping device?
No, this isn't anything like that. It just disconnects the memory from the extreme emotional reaction. It doesn't make the memory go away, or make it pleasant, it just makes it so you can remeber it without wanting to puke your guts out.

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Re: Researchers discover how to erase memory

Postby Mazuku » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:02 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:
Mazuku wrote:So, does this mean that scienists are close to figuring out where certain memories are kept or is this the beginning of the creation of a mind wiping device?
No, this isn't anything like that. It just disconnects the memory from the extreme emotional reaction. It doesn't make the memory go away, or make it pleasant, it just makes it so you can remeber it without wanting to puke your guts out.


Oh I see, in other words, it erases emotional memory. That reminds me of people who suffer a type of brain damage... Impostor Syndrome IIRC, a condition where the emotional memory of people the sufferer knows is erased without affecting the 'normal' memory.

The result is that while the sufferer recognises people, because the emotional memory is gone, the sufferer thinks that there is something wrong with all these people he knows, often concluding that they are impostors who have replaced his real friends and family somehow.
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