Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklahoma

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:05 pm UTC

I'm willing to allow for reasonable disagreements. Groups who oppose homosexuality in the military, and have done research, surveys, have silly things like evidence (even if it will usually be spurious) behind them, should they choose to protest in front of the White House. Ok, fine. I don't agree with them, I served with gays, and by and large they didn't make an X-Box hueg deal of it. There were a few who really needed to stop the stupidity, the flagrant violations of rules that were there for safety, etc. But I don't mind getting mad when the people who protest against it do their thing. Everyone needs an outlet for their fears.

WBC doesn't get that kind of slack from me. They are trolls; professional, well litigated, trolls. Ignoring them won't make them go away, because you'll never be able to convince everyone to stop the gut-level instinct to fire back.

I left the funeral of one of my "kids", once, because of this kind of stupidity. The protesters were using bullhorns to be heard over the service. A counter protest group was there to help, but they weren't loud enough, and didn't provide a big enough curtain. I decided I had had enough, snapped from parade rest to attention, snapped a salute to the coffin, did a smart about face, took two steps, stripped off my blue dress jacket and tossed it to one of my subordinates, stripped off my long-sleeve dress shirt and flicked it to my wingman, took off my hat and gloves and dropped them on some ladies lap, walked past one of the counter protest guys and grabbed his jacket, put it on and kept marching. I picked up a picture montage of the young man who just died on my way out of the cemetary, marched right up to and past the police officers who (for some bizzare reason) did not stop me. I stood in front of the loudest person there, and thrust the picture directly in their face. Everyone quieted down somewhat, confused.

"Can you identify the deceased in this picture." I asked.

"It's the monkey with the buzz cut, duh." This slack-jawed peasant stated.

"Do you know him?"

"I know people like him. War crazy murdering puppet masters." The people cheered and hooted and hollared.

"He was not in charge of anyone, so I'm not certain how you could call him a puppet master."

"He was in the military, that's all their good for is killing people." Louder cheering.

"Are you familiar with the Berlin Airlift? Operation Hope? The US military missions to provide relief in every single major disaster since Truman took office?"

"That's all propoganda. They don't actually do anything there."

"Really. And you have what citations for this?"

"Man, the government just covers over evidence. There is no proof, the government wouldn't let it out."

"Ah. I see. So, you're protesting the funeral of a man who was against going to war, without knowing who he is, what he stood for, or whether or not the US Military is responsible for things you accuse it of. Clearly, I am dealing with the next Bob Woodward."

"Fuck you man."

"Ah, yes. Swearing. Last refuge of the weak. Swear at me some more, if you like. However I would like to point something out first. The gentleman who you are protesting, and some of you are calling a 'fag' for some reason, died saving someone just like you. You see, they were protesting, just like you. They were against the US 'occupation'. They were yelling, and screaming, and hollaring, just like you. Couldn't understand a word they were saying, mind. But they were saying it angry. <At this point, I went on to describe what happened. I shouldn't have, it was/is against regulations, and was therefore illegal.> So there they are. Dying. Away from hearth, home, and family. Fighting a war they didn't agree with, saving people who hated him." At this point I took the man's hands and shoved the picture frame into them. "Hold onto this. Swear at this. Take out all your frustrations with your pathetic existance against this. Then thank these police officers for preventing me from feeding you this."

I turned around threw the jacket I borrowed from the gentleman back to him, and stood there by the cemetary gates. My Shirt came over and started explaining that I'd have to answer for what I just did. But she'd not take me to task today. She told me to apologize to the family for causing a disturbance, and then walked over to the police officers to ask if I did anything illegal.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby StNowhere » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:31 pm UTC

I wouldn't actively advocate violence against the WBC. But should they all come to die horribly, I would not shed a tear for their loss. And if someone should be tried for assassinating the Rev. Phelps, I would certainly advocate nullification.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:49 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:When it does the LGBT military should protest at his funeral. :twisted:


Nah, there's no point in becoming what you hate, and it would be a waste of people's time better spent on... well anyone or anything other than Felps and the WBC.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby fr00t » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Protesting a funeral has to be the most unreasonable yet legal course of action possible. Yet I suppose if not the WBC, then another group would stretch the limit of civil liberties. Perhaps they are actually an ultra liberal activist group with a secretive agenda. That would make me feel a lot better about humanity, at least.

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Dauric wrote:I think -if the discrimination against a religion lawsuit was instigated- it would be an interesting defense if the merchant's assoc. in defending the local mechanic(s) asked for "Expert Testimony" from some of these Baptist organizations to say "Yeah, that protesting at funerals thing, not part of the religion."


Wouldn't fly. The courts do not determine what an official, standard, logical , consistent or whatever belief is, the only requirement is that a belief be held sincerely. There have been conscientious objector cases, for example, where the person's pastor testified that pacifism was not required by that religion but the court still upheld the objector's rights because what is religion for that specific person is what's protected.


It would seem to me that that means ultimately you cannot refuse service to anyone for any reason. If picketing funerals is protected religious expression, then why not literally anything else?

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:59 pm UTC

I'm not wearing shoes inside the store, it is against my religion to wear shoes.

I'm not wearing a shirt inside the store, it is against my religion to wear a shirt.

I'm not going to stop yelling, it is against my religion to lower my voice.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:01 pm UTC

As I sat here at my desk looking at streets through google's street view the solution occured to me. Instead of counter protest someone/group should get a portable soundwall to set up before each service. It could be placed either close to the fence line or in a smaller semicircle around the site of the service.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby StNowhere » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

If it were my relative whose funeral was being picketed, I would hire a team of sound engineers to build a wall of amps directly in front of the WBC, and then proceed to play Black Sabbath records, backwards, throughout the entirety of the funeral. Hopefully, someone's head would explode.

Not sure if I should use the Dio years or the Ozzy recordings, though. Thoughts?

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

Ozzy. Specifically, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:25 pm UTC

StNowhere wrote:If it were my relative whose funeral was being picketed, I would hire a team of sound engineers to build a wall of amps directly in front of the WBC, and then proceed to play Black Sabbath records, backwards, throughout the entirety of the funeral. Hopefully, someone's head would explode.

Not sure if I should use the Dio years or the Ozzy recordings, though. Thoughts?



I suddenly have this image of the impromptu concert drawing a crowd of fans, and the WBC being tossed around in a spontaneous mosh-pit...
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Whelan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:29 pm UTC

Personally I'd be playing Sympathy for the Devil by Rolling Stones, the Pope Song by Tim Minchin, and whatever pagan rock I can find...Which would be a fair amount given the 5 hours of it I have on my iPod already. All this assumes the funeral of a Pagan, clearly these wouldn't be appropriate for a Christian funeral.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Rackum » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:30 pm UTC

StNowhere wrote:If it were my relative whose funeral was being picketed, I would hire a team of sound engineers to build a wall of amps directly in front of the WBC, and then proceed to play Black Sabbath records, backwards, throughout the entirety of the funeral. Hopefully, someone's head would explode.

Not sure if I should use the Dio years or the Ozzy recordings, though. Thoughts?

Or you could have the amps "turned up to 11" but not playing anything, just mic'd to the protesters so that they would get blasted if they tried to yell at the funeral attendees. It would force them to sit there and suffer helplessly in silence while the funeral was in service.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Marbas » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:38 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:As I sat here at my desk looking at streets through google's street view the solution occured to me. Instead of counter protest someone/group should get a portable soundwall to set up before each service. It could be placed either close to the fence line or in a smaller semicircle around the site of the service.


I was actually thinking about that too. But it looks like soundwalls are expensive.

And heavy. Really heavy. Maybe you don't need to block the sound, just distort it? Some sort of sound cancelling PA system maybe? It wouldn't have to be perfect!", it would just have to make them unintelligible.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:43 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:
StNowhere wrote:If it were my relative whose funeral was being picketed, I would hire a team of sound engineers to build a wall of amps directly in front of the WBC, and then proceed to play Black Sabbath records, backwards, throughout the entirety of the funeral. Hopefully, someone's head would explode.

Not sure if I should use the Dio years or the Ozzy recordings, though. Thoughts?

Or you could have the amps "turned up to 11" but not playing anything, just mic'd to the protesters so that they would get blasted if they tried to yell at the funeral attendees. It would force them to sit there and suffer helplessly in silence while the funeral was in service.


I'd replace the standard speakers with an array of LRAD, or even better, dispense with the audio and go straight for the Active Denial System. The louder they get the more they microwave themselves.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby the_bandersnatch » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:46 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:Or you could have the amps "turned up to 11" but not playing anything, just mic'd to the protesters so that they would get blasted if they tried to yell at the funeral attendees. It would force them to sit there and suffer helplessly in silence while the funeral was in service.


Ooh, I like this idea, you can't beat a bit of the old poetic justice.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:50 pm UTC

Actually, you could take the sound wall amplifiers they use for choir in high schools, then turn them to face the protestors. It would muffle the sound, and what sound reflected, would be reflected directly back at the protestors, rather than in the intended direction.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Actually, you could take the sound wall amplifiers they use for choir in high schools, then turn them to face the protestors. It would muffle the sound, and what sound reflected, would be reflected directly back at the protestors, rather than in the intended direction.


As much as I like this idea I'd still have to add an amplifier of some sort. After seeing part of an interview with some of them I'm fairly convinced that they enjoy hearing themselves so any returning sound that doesn't painfully vibrate their eyeballs would just be encouragement.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

I second the feedback loop idea. Combine that with the ADS and you'd have a formidable counterattack against these nuts.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:02 pm UTC

Then we are back to Angels Wear Boots at 11 through a sound system donated by your local VFW.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby BlackSails » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:29 pm UTC

I dont suppose the WBC would be willing to accept an all expenses paid trip to Germany?

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:34 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:I dont suppose the WBC would be willing to accept an all expenses paid trip to Germany?

I vaguely recall something about this suggestion from an earlier thread or article I saw somewhere, but I forget what exactly were the details. Could you give some linkage for the memory-challenged?
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:57 pm UTC

The Patriot Guard Riders offer to drive their motorcycles around the funerals of fallen servicemen to drown out protestors. I don't think they specifically mention Phelps on their website, but they have drowned him out a few times.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:The Patriot Guard Riders offer to drive their motorcycles around the funerals of fallen servicemen to drown out protestors. I don't think they specifically mention Phelps on their website, but they have drowned him out a few times.


The Wikipedia article(for whatever the value of the Wikipedia article is) says that they were founded specifically in response to the WBC. It would make sense that they don't mention the WBC by name on their page (possible slander), though nowadays they'll perform that service wherever they're invited to for any serviceman, law officer or other "first responder", against whatever protest there may be.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby BlackSails » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:05 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
BlackSails wrote:I dont suppose the WBC would be willing to accept an all expenses paid trip to Germany?

I vaguely recall something about this suggestion from an earlier thread or article I saw somewhere, but I forget what exactly were the details. Could you give some linkage for the memory-challenged?


The free speech laws in germany are not so liberal as here, particularly when it comes to the holocaust.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:10 pm UTC

Psh, these people are cowards, they wouldn't go where they are certain they wouldn't win.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Diadem » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:56 pm UTC

What I don't understand is why this WBC bullshit is allowed at all.

Before you mention 'free speech': It is precisely because of free speech that this should not be allowed. Free speech is for everybody, not just the WBC. And what the WBC is doing is not just using their freedom of speech, they are disrupting other people's freedom of speech. Nowhere does the law say you only have freedom of speech if you can shout louder than the other guy. If I'm attending one of those funerals, will I be able to hear the soft-spoken 9-year-old daughter of the deceased, over all the noise the WBC is producing? No, I won't. That is unacceptable, and a perfectly good reason to censor the WBC.

I'm not arguing anything new here. When two different groups want to voice two different opinions at the same time and place, that is impossible, and there are rules to regulate that in every country I know, including the USA. Usually it's simply 'first come first serve'. That seems fair enough. And in this case, the funeral is there first, obviously (since the WBC demonstration is a reponse to the funeral).

Just move the WBC well out of the way, or to a different time. Problem solved.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am UTC

Lostdreams wrote:
Dauric wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:Again, I realize what kind of monster lurks beneath my skin. I'd rather they'd been quietly drowned. No muss. No fuss. Party at the funeral.

What stops similar things from happening to other "less distasteful" groups? Those groups don't thrive on a corrupt system. WBC only survives because they take advantage of a system that is designed to protect "good" people.

I'm glad I have self control.


In a similar vein to what I said about the tire slashing, while I'm not saying you should let slip the "Oregonauts of war", however If in a hypothetical future the WBC was protesting somewhere (especially at another veteran's funeral, perhaps pissing off some marine sniper...) and a shot rang out and suddenly Fred Felps's head were to explode, it's not like anyone should be surprised that it happened. Frankly I'm almost but not quite surprised that it hasn't happened already.


When it does the LGBT military should protest at his funeral. :twisted:


Orgy at the gravesite.

That being said, I actually find it hard to defend the property rights of people who clearly don't believe in any conception of human rights.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:51 am UTC

If I understand correctly many of these funerals take place in graveyards. Aren't they private property? Can't the owner evict them if they behave unruly?
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:14 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Psh, these people are cowards, they wouldn't go where they are certain they wouldn't win.


Hell, the UK has now applied a blanket ban on WBC members, say what you like about free speach, but I'm glad... not least because the strong thread of british people becoming Tired and Emotional at funerals is instantly less likely to end in an embarrasing and diplomatically awkward manner.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:18 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:If I understand correctly many of these funerals take place in graveyards. Aren't they private property? Can't the owner evict them if they behave unruly?


This is true; but it doesn't prevent protesting at the gates/across the street.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Obby » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:49 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:If I understand correctly many of these funerals take place in graveyards. Aren't they private property? Can't the owner evict them if they behave unruly?


The WBC doesn't parade around the casket or through the isles of those in attendance of the ceremony. They're usually something like across the street, where the owners of the property have no power over them.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby PeterCai » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:06 am UTC

WBC has turned so many people toward atheism that I am starting to wonder if they are some radical reverse trolls.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:30 am UTC

Obby wrote:
Brooklynxman wrote:If I understand correctly many of these funerals take place in graveyards. Aren't they private property? Can't the owner evict them if they behave unruly?


The WBC doesn't parade around the casket or through the isles of those in attendance of the ceremony. They're usually something like across the street, where the owners of the property have no power over them.


I had thought they were literally right outside the seating area. Seems I underestimated the power of their megaphone.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SummerGlauFan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:55 am UTC

Diadem wrote:What I don't understand is why this WBC bullshit is allowed at all.

Before you mention 'free speech': It is precisely because of free speech that this should not be allowed. Free speech is for everybody, not just the WBC. And what the WBC is doing is not just using their freedom of speech, they are disrupting other people's freedom of speech. Nowhere does the law say you only have freedom of speech if you can shout louder than the other guy. If I'm attending one of those funerals, will I be able to hear the soft-spoken 9-year-old daughter of the deceased, over all the noise the WBC is producing? No, I won't. That is unacceptable, and a perfectly good reason to censor the WBC.

I'm not arguing anything new here. When two different groups want to voice two different opinions at the same time and place, that is impossible, and there are rules to regulate that in every country I know, including the USA. Usually it's simply 'first come first serve'. That seems fair enough. And in this case, the funeral is there first, obviously (since the WBC demonstration is a reponse to the funeral).

Just move the WBC well out of the way, or to a different time. Problem solved.


You would not be the first to bring up this argument. The freaks that are WBC protest stage their shenanigans at the legally required distance for that very reason.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:11 am UTC

And this is why I'm highly amused by people doing stuff that they have to get CAUGHT at in order to get sued for. IMO, the natural cure for Lawful Evil people is Chaotic Good people :P
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:25 am UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:
Diadem wrote:What I don't understand is why this WBC bullshit is allowed at all.

Before you mention 'free speech': It is precisely because of free speech that this should not be allowed. Free speech is for everybody, not just the WBC. And what the WBC is doing is not just using their freedom of speech, they are disrupting other people's freedom of speech. Nowhere does the law say you only have freedom of speech if you can shout louder than the other guy. If I'm attending one of those funerals, will I be able to hear the soft-spoken 9-year-old daughter of the deceased, over all the noise the WBC is producing? No, I won't. That is unacceptable, and a perfectly good reason to censor the WBC.

I'm not arguing anything new here. When two different groups want to voice two different opinions at the same time and place, that is impossible, and there are rules to regulate that in every country I know, including the USA. Usually it's simply 'first come first serve'. That seems fair enough. And in this case, the funeral is there first, obviously (since the WBC demonstration is a reponse to the funeral).

Just move the WBC well out of the way, or to a different time. Problem solved.


You would not be the first to bring up this argument. The freaks that are WBC protest stage their shenanigans at the legally required distance for that very reason.

I don't know what the legally required distance is, but if I understand correctly the problem is that they can still be heard, loudly, at the funeral site itself? So clearly the legally required distanced is wrong - and I would argue in fact illegal. If they can still disrupt funeral services at the distance they are at, then they are still interfering with the free speech of others.
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Vieto
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Vieto » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:47 am UTC

so wait, why do noisy parties get fines, but not people with megaphones?

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:00 am UTC

Most likely time of day is the big difference.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Vieto » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:19 am UTC

problem solved then, have the funeral at night.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:14 am UTC

In the Netherlands you need a license to stage a protest, which is given by the mayor. If the mayor feels public order / safety is at risk he can ban or relocate the protest. This happened recently to a British group that wanted to protest in favour of Geert Wilders [a Dutch politician], they were ordered to hold their protest in an outskirt of the city, rather than in the centre of Amsterdam as they had been planning. I take it the US do not have similar provisions? How hard or undesirable would it be to ban protests at funerals?

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby meatyochre » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:39 am UTC

Good job on the tire slashing, but I think it would have been more productive (and hilarious) to dismantle the entire vehicle.
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