Male field hockey player.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Jessica » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:49 pm UTC

I think you're overestimating the performance gap between men and women. While you may have heard that a "good men's high school soccer team is likely on par with the women's national team," I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of a statement like that. It's simply not true.

There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.

You're suggestion otherwise is just wrong.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Aetius » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:04 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I think you're overestimating the performance gap between men and women. While you may have heard that a "good men's high school soccer team is likely on par with the women's national team," I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of a statement like that. It's simply not true.

There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.

You're suggestion otherwise is just wrong.


You're looking at sports as if they to some degree equalize differences in speed/strength/etc when the reality is they amplify it. The difference between an elite fastball and a mediocre fastball is about 5% of the total velocity. In a game like soccer a small advantage in speed or strength will likely mean you'll win ball challenges 80-90% of the time. I've played against women's teams that had us completely outclassed in every aspect of ball handling, passing and strategy, and it simply didn't matter because of the speed and strength advantage we had.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:11 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I think you're overestimating the performance gap between men and women. While you may have heard that a "good men's high school soccer team is likely on par with the women's national team," I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of a statement like that. It's simply not true.

There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.

You're suggestion otherwise is just wrong.

Well I don't know about soccer, but a men's high school basketball all-star team could absolutely compete with the women's national team.
Last edited by jakovasaur on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:18 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

^^ I cannot begin to tell you how wrong you are about that.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Dauric » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:14 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Jessica wrote:I think you're overestimating the performance gap between men and women. While you may have heard that a "good men's high school soccer team is likely on par with the women's national team," I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of a statement like that. It's simply not true.

There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.

You're suggestion otherwise is just wrong.

Well I don't know about soccer, but the a men's high school basketball all-star team could absolutely compete with the women's national team.


I'm not particularly a sports fan, but I would pay for the tickets to see that if only out of scientific curiosity.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:15 pm UTC

The women's national team would destroy a men's high school basketball team. They'd be outclassed at all facets of the game.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:The women's national team would destroy a men's high school basketball team. They'd be outclassed at all facets of the game.

Except for height, strength, speed, and quickness. A 5'8" WNBA PG will never ever be able to score on, or defend a 6'3" male PG. Just won't happen. Same thing with a 6'3" WNBA center and a male center who is 8 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier.

Edit: I think you're maybe not considering the fact that the best 5 high school basketball players are right now good enough to start on NBA teams.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Aetius » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:29 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:Edit: I think you're maybe not considering the fact that the best 5 high school basketball players are right now good enough to start on NBA teams.


And thanks to NBA rules, they're only 12 barely passed fall art credits away from doing so!

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:30 pm UTC

Dude...no. That's really not how it works. The women wouldn't necessarily play them the same that they'd play everyone else. Like nobody played Shaq in his prime the same way they played Dr. J in his prime. You tailor your play style to your competition. I'd bet money that the women's national team would devastate a men's high school team.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby General_Norris » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:37 pm UTC

The problem is not that they can't win, the problem is that it takes more effort for them to do so and it shouldn't. With the same amount a of skill and luck the man will beat the woman everytime. Saying that you can "tailor your play style to your competition" makes no sense because the other team can do the same. Every factor that can tip the balance to the women's favour also applies to men with the difference that they already have physical advantages.

No matter what a woman does she wil never be able to beat someone of her same skill level consistently with the same amount of luck in most sports. It's unfair to women to ask them to cope with an unfair field that gives certain people an advantage.

A level play field is unsportive and competition can't exist without it.
Last edited by General_Norris on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:40 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:38 pm UTC

Yeah, I don't know. If you're talking a high-school all-star team rather than just any random men's high school basketball team, there are going to be players that the women's national team would have a really, really rough time with. Revert the draft eligibilty rules to when players could be drafted out of high school, and the starters for that high school team would likely be months away from being NBA lottery picks. God help the women's team if there's a Dwight Howard or LeBron-type combination of size and talent on the particular year we hold this hypothetical contest.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:40 pm UTC

An average high school basketball team could not compete against women's national teams, but i guarantee a state champion team or an all star team could definitely compete with the WNBA. Same for many sports. There is a great difference in physical strength between male and female, thats why there are different leagues. Women are separated from men starting in junior high for a reason, not just arbitrarily. If schools just had one basketball team, one soccer team, etc. i can guarantee that on average, there will not be a single girl on the most competitive teams. Even the less competitive team will not be a 50/50 split, if at all.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:45 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Dude...no. That's really not how it works. The women wouldn't necessarily play them the same that they'd play everyone else. Like nobody played Shaq in his prime the same way they played Dr. J in his prime. You tailor your play style to your competition. I'd bet money that the women's national team would devastate a men's high school team.

I said a HS all-star team. Not any old high school team. I'm talking about the best high school players in the country. They would certainly compete, and I'd put money on them winning, against any women's team you could assemble.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:45 pm UTC

Yeah, Jako edited his post after we posted. All-star team is different than "Men's High School Team".

You edited your post, Jako.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:52 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Yeah, Jako edited his post after we posted. All-star team is different than "Men's High School Team".

You edited your post, Jako.

Yeah, I edited it from "the a men's high school basketball all-star team" to "a men's high school basketball all-star team". Just removed a typo.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:56 pm UTC

Bah, reading is a useless skill.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby General_Norris » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:00 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Bah, reading is a useless skill.

Burn the witch!

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Telchar » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:04 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:The women's national team would destroy a men's high school basketball team. They'd be outclassed at all facets of the game.

Except for height, strength, speed, and quickness. A 5'8" WNBA PG will never ever be able to score on, or defend a 6'3" male PG. Just won't happen. Same thing with a 6'3" WNBA center and a male center who is 8 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier.


PG is a really bad position to pick on. You have a point about undersized centers, but if you are saying that undersized point gaurds can't compete then I'd like to refer you to Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo, and John Stockton. And I'm counting at least 4 WNBA PGs that are 5'11". You're telling me that 3 inch difference is going to be more of an obstacle than skill or preperation? And yes, an undersized team can win even in the NBA.

TBH: I'd like to see the UConn womens team play any HS All Star team. You can't just throw 12 guys on to a team and go perform at a high level.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:28 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:The women's national team would destroy a men's high school basketball team. They'd be outclassed at all facets of the game.

Except for height, strength, speed, and quickness. A 5'8" WNBA PG will never ever be able to score on, or defend a 6'3" male PG. Just won't happen. Same thing with a 6'3" WNBA center and a male center who is 8 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier.


PG is a really bad position to pick on. You have a point about undersized centers, but if you are saying that undersized point gaurds can't compete then I'd like to refer you to Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo, and John Stockton. And I'm counting at least 4 WNBA PGs that are 5'11". You're telling me that 3 inch difference is going to be more of an obstacle than skill or preperation? And yes, an undersized team can win even in the NBA.

TBH: I'd like to see the UConn womens team play any HS All Star team. You can't just throw 12 guys on to a team and go perform at a high level.

Well, I was using PGs as a sort of "even at this position, they still couldn't compete". A guy like Rondo is kind of what I'm talking about. He might only have a few inches, or maybe even none on a female guard, but his strength, speed and general athleticism would allow him to completely tear any female player apart. Think about how unfair it is that 5'9" nate robinson can actually win a slam dunk competition, and there are only a handful of women in the entire world who can dunk in games, even when they are only playing against other women.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby el_loco_avs » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC

This discussion is making me think of the Williams' sisters claim that they could defeat any man ranked outside of the top 200 and got annihilated by #203.


I can think of one sport where the difference is small. Long distance running. Someone predicted that women will eventually be faster than the men.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby mdyrud » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:38 am UTC

Speaking of the comparison of male high school athletic teams to high level women's teams, I can state with certainty that men can beat or play at a level very close to a women's team in ice hockey. I'm from northern Minnesota, and a school near me is a huge hockey school. One of the best in the state, though not the best. In January of 2006, they faced the USA Women's Olympic Hockey Team and won, 2-1. The team then came to my town, where they beat my schools team, but it was a close game.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby fjafjan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:01 am UTC

Womens national basketball team v High School team I think it could go either way. I think the best high school team would win, obviously a bad one would lose. But I mean when I was 14-15 I played in a (for my age) mediocre youth soccer team, we were in the middle divisions for our age. We had a practice match against our clubs Women A team, who were in the second highest division, and Sweden is fairly good at womens soccer. We won without any real difficulty.
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I am less familiar with the level of female basketball and high school basketball but I suspect it would be similar, as speed and strength is less important, height all the more so. A High School team will already be basically as tall as they're going to be, and skewed to the tallest side of the spectrum.

So a sport like Golf female players can compete relatively well with male ones, Strength will continue to be an advantage and men will therefor always be better on average, but the short play is really more important than a couple extra yards.

But in Field Hockey being faster and stronger would give you a pretty huge leg up, much like football, and I can see why one guy with athletic talent would be vastly better, despite only being moderately faster and stronger than his opposition. After all it doesn't matter much if you're half a feet or twelve feet away from the ball, if you're not getting to it you're not getting to it.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:58 am UTC

Jessica wrote:There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex.
Interesting as that may be, it's not particularly relevant when you're considering people who are already two or three standard deviations above their genders' respective means.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:39 am UTC

Jessica wrote:I think you're overestimating the performance gap between men and women. While you may have heard that a "good men's high school soccer team is likely on par with the women's national team," I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of a statement like that. It's simply not true.

There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.

You're suggestion otherwise is just wrong.


I have a female friend who plays basketball on a college team. She trains actively several times a week, and competes at a very high level. I haven't played competitively since grade 10. I'm 7 years older, and getting fat. She's 19, i'm 26. I can hold my own against her. I'm simply bigger, stronger, and faster then she is, and despite the fact that she out skills me in every aspect of play, I can get the drop on her with every drive, I can post up on her easily. She can score on me too, but she as to do so by playing the outside, making more difficult shots. Anytime she gets near the basket, my size and strength are a very large barrier for her to overcome.

As for the difference in means... well of course there's not that much difference in the means. The means are completely dominated by coach potatoes. When 70% of the population is sedentary, comparing means is in no way indicative of genetic potential. Give me 3 months in a gym with a couple of average men and women, and the men will out strip the women in strength and speed by such a large margin, you wouldn't think of having them compete against each other. I'm not saying its fair. Its not. But the fact remains that most men can, if they want to, build large muscles easily compared to women. And that has a lot of competitive advantage.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Vo2max » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:45 am UTC

Two things: Like I said above, in my sport I compete regularly with world class, including Olympic and World Championship gold-medal-winning, female athletes. And we are about equal in performance (where I am an amateur male who competes for fun at a club level and trains around work, and they are some of the best full-time professionals in the world.) I would also regularly get a kicking from the best high school age boys when I have the misfortune to compete against them. The idea that there isn't a huge gap in athletic performance between men and women is a pure fantasy I'm afraid. The degree to which that gap is countered by technical skill will vary between sports.

The second thing, somewhat countering that, is that social conditioning undoubtedly pushes more men into sports than women, so at the very top level the male competitors will likely have reached a higher level simply because it is much more likely that potentially extreme-outlier females are never getting into the sport in the first place, whereas almost every male child in the west will grow up with some level of encouragement to take part in sport so the outliers are more likely to be found.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:45 pm UTC

Vo2max wrote:The second thing, somewhat countering that, is that social conditioning undoubtedly pushes more men into sports than women, so at the very top level the male competitors will likely have reached a higher level simply because it is much more likely that potentially extreme-outlier females are never getting into the sport in the first place...

Don't forget the other aspect of that social conditioning: More boys get in involved at an earlier age. This is especially true for (American) football and hockey. The skills gained in those early years (and years) of practice can't be discounted. Without a good metric for correcting for these two factors, those sports nearly have to be discounted from any gender comparison.

Since gold was brought up, a quick study could be made (say excluding boy-genius Tiger and the players who've been at it longer than the LPGA existed) by comparing scores on the same course, if such info is available. But don't they reconfigure each course a bit for each of the major PGA events? And do the women play the same course? I just not familiar enough, nor am I finding good information.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby trebor » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:59 pm UTC

Just last month we had a team of random high school boys (of which I was the only one that had played field hockey before (apparently more popular for males in Australia as compared to males in USA....interesting)) and we demolished the girls league winning 1st team. We were simply faster and fitter; it made a huge difference in hockey, the extra arm length alone let us defend better. And the speed at which we could run to the ball, the girls gave up trying to race us and just tried tactics. All in all a good time was had and the proceeds from spectators and players went to charity. :D

I can easily see this one guy making a large difference in games, but I think he should still be allowed to play if they’ve let him play so far. Don’t stop him if he’s already started…..

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:42 pm UTC

Since people are trading anecdotes here, I'll add my experience. I'm an amateur fencer; a sport which relies on thinking, speed, flexibility, and to a lesser extent reach. It's also one that doesn't tend to be taken up during childhood, but in late secondary education or at the start of university for many. More men then women play, but it is an individual sport. The men's team for my university beats the women's team by a fair margin any time they meet.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:38 pm UTC

I no longer weight train but previously did in college. I currently can bench around 145 lbs(when I trained I could do around 200 lbs). The female athletes in the gym would bench around 85-105 lbs, untrained it seems most women do about 40-60 lbs. This corresponds to my reading, which claims that an 18 year old women on average can bench around 57% of her body weight, while an 18 year old man can bench 93% of his body weight(source: Men's Health). Given then men generally weigh more the average man can bench ~2 times the average female. This also holds at elite levels the mens world record is 1000lbs while the womens is 450lbs(source: Slate Magazine). The fact that on nearly all levels of fitness, men have approximately twice the upper body strength as women is going to give them a large advantage at a number of sports.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:54 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I no longer weight train but previously did in college. I currently can bench around 145 lbs(when I trained I could do around 200 lbs). The female athletes in the gym would bench around 85-105 lbs, untrained it seems most women do about 40-60 lbs. This corresponds to my reading, which claims that an 18 year old women on average can bench around 57% of her body weight, while an 18 year old man can bench 93% of his body weight(source: Men's Health). Given then men generally weigh more the average man can bench ~2 times the average female. This also holds at elite levels the mens world record is 1000lbs while the womens is 450lbs(source: Slate Magazine). The fact that on nearly all levels of fitness, men have approximately twice the upper body strength as women is going to give them a large advantage at a number of sports.


Not just upper body strength (which tends to be overstated in importance in most sports) but in lower body strength. Having large quads, glutes, and hamstrings means trained man can accelerate faster off a drive, jump higher for a shot, or to grab a rebound, etc...

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Telchar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:45 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Since gold was brought up, a quick study could be made (say excluding boy-genius Tiger and the players who've been at it longer than the LPGA existed) by comparing scores on the same course, if such info is available. But don't they reconfigure each course a bit for each of the major PGA events? And do the women play the same course? I just not familiar enough, nor am I finding good information.


The courses generally don't change but women have a handicapped teabox.

And I beleive there was a young LPGA golfer that was allowed to compete at a few PGA tournaments and did not perform well. Again, not a great comparison because to really be equal you'd have to have a female who played from the mens teabox her entire life but that isn't realistic in the current golf environment.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
Azrael wrote:handicapped teabox.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
Azrael wrote:Since gold was brought up, a quick study could be made (say excluding boy-genius Tiger and the players who've been at it longer than the LPGA existed) by comparing scores on the same course, if such info is available. But don't they reconfigure each course a bit for each of the major PGA events? And do the women play the same course? I just not familiar enough, nor am I finding good information.


The courses generally don't change but women have a handicapped teabox.

And I beleive there was a young LPGA golfer that was allowed to compete at a few PGA tournaments and did not perform well. Again, not a great comparison because to really be equal you'd have to have a female who played from the mens teabox her entire life but that isn't realistic in the current golf environment.


Just to clarify(if anyone was unfamiliar) women play on the same course but start from a location that is closer to the hole.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:45 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:There have been many studies which have shown that the difference in the means between the sexes is less than the standard deviation within a given sex. On average the difference between any two members of the same sex is greater than the average difference between men and women.



This is true in academics, I sincerely question this as it relates to physical differences.

For instance, the standard deviation of male height in america is 3". And the average female height is 5'4, and the average man is 5'9". So, right away, height fails your test above. On average, the difference between to randomly selected men, is much smaller then the difference between the means of mens and womens height. And this should really be intuitive. Men are taller. Much taller.

Lets take weight.

The average 45 year old white man weighs 180 lbs. The average 45 year old white woman weighs 150 lbs. The standard deviation of male weight is 27 lbs. So, once again, this fails your test. In fact, according to one source, only 10% of men are lighter then the average female.

Men also have more muscle per lb of body weight, despite tending to have more fat. Men sit at 43% skeletal muscle by weight, whereas women sit at 36% muscle by weight.

I'm trying to find measure of average strength and standard deviations of such, but I'm not having much luck yet.

EDIT: It's not exactly strength, but I believe it correlates well to athletic performance:

The average man aged 21-30 has a vertical leap of 22.1" with a standard deviation of 3.4"
The average woman aged 21-30 has a vertical leap of 14.1" with a standard deviation of 2.5"

So, that too, fails the implied "woman and men aren't that different" test above. From a physical performance standpoint, we're very different.

EDIT2: Sources, as asked.

Height: http://investing.calsci.com/statistics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
Weight: http://www.halls.md/chart/women-weight-w.htm
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/DanielTouger.shtml

Leap stuff pulled from:
http://jumpshigher.com/average-vertical-jump
Last edited by stevey_frac on Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:56 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:51 pm UTC

What source are you pulling from?

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:14 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:
I'm trying to find measure of average strength and standard deviations of such, but I'm not having much luck yet.
See my above post.

The average guy can bench-press 93 percent of his body weight vs. 57 percent(http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/ ... ition.html)
I can't find the standard deviation, but considering the average man can bench 2x as much as the average women(or at the extreme the record for men is twice that of the record for women), I would guess the difference is more than a standard deviation.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:24 pm UTC

I strongly question that statistic. I sincerely doubt that the average man can bench press 170 lbs ish lbs. I'd put it at closer to 135 lbs. That seems to be where most guys at the BodyBuilding forums start at. Women seem to start at around 95 lbs ish for bench. This is assuming free weight, which is the real press, not a machine that guides you through the motions, and you don't have to balance the bar. Most people will have one arm much strong then the other, and won't be able to lift more then twice their weak arm's strength without unbalancing themselves.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:49 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:I strongly question that statistic. I sincerely doubt that the average man can bench press 170 lbs ish lbs. I'd put it at closer to 135 lbs. That seems to be where most guys at the BodyBuilding forums start at. Women seem to start at around 95 lbs ish for bench.
Although it definitely seems like 135 is where the non training male starts(Thats pretty much exactly what I can do right now without training, but I also weigh about 150lbs, so it puts me in range of 93% with a small amount of training). 90 lbs sounds damn high for a women starting, most trained women I see do about 90-105. Most of the untrained women I see.... do the 45 lbs bar. Thats all anecdotal though, I would prefer to use the percentages that at least seem to have some study behind them. (The bench press record on the other hand is pretty indisputable, if only representing the elite athletes)
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:55 pm UTC

I was assuming the average man was 45 for some reason... in my head... I've had like 3 hours sleep and i've been staring at fortran that doesn't work for about 3 hours now. Forgive me.

Might have something to do with the fact that I weigh in at 230 lbs, so 180 lbs seems like a pretty average guy to me...

Not quite sure what I was thinking... I'll get back to you if I figure it out. :P

I've never seen a woman try to bench press to be honest. I go to a hard core gym, and there's mostly men, and the women that do come seem to mostly focus on cardio.


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