Antihydrogen

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Antihydrogen

Postby The Reaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:19 pm UTC

http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-antihydrogen.html
Physicists working at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Geneva, Switzerland, have succeeded in trapping antihydrogen

paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 09610.html

The article is sorta long, so feel free to click!

tl;dr, Captured 38 antihydrogen atoms. Proof by 38 tiny annihilations when they turned off their magnet trap.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby frezik » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:24 pm UTC

I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby The Reaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:49 pm UTC

frezik wrote:I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.

Can we tell the greeks that i isn't imaginary as well?

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Triangle_Man » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:04 am UTC

I did skim the article (may go back and read it later), but from what I gather of it this is pretty signifigant, even if it only exists for less then a second or so.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:22 am UTC

frezik wrote:I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.

Interesting question: How much would global temperatures rise if the earth but not the rest of the solar system was made out of antimatter?
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby big boss » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:27 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
frezik wrote:I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.

Interesting question: How much would global temperatures rise if the earth but not the rest of the solar system was made out of antimatter?


If the earth were made out of antimatter it would have long ago been destroyed via annihilation when over millions of years objects such as comets impact it.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:31 am UTC

big boss wrote:
Diadem wrote:
frezik wrote:I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.

Interesting question: How much would global temperatures rise if the earth but not the rest of the solar system was made out of antimatter?


If the earth were made out of antimatter it would have long ago been destroyed via annihilation when over millions of years objects such as comets impact it.

Okay, now I just have a totally bizarre question....do we know that most of the rest of the universe is, in fact, matter and not antimatter? And if so, how? I mean, in theory, couldn't an antimatter comet hit us at some point? :?
/doesn't know much about antimatter, and/or if it could possibly be naturally occurring.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:32 am UTC

big boss wrote:
Diadem wrote:
frezik wrote:I say we come up with a transition plan to remake our Solar System out of antimatter. That way we can correct Franklin's mistake without time travel.

Interesting question: How much would global temperatures rise if the earth but not the rest of the solar system was made out of antimatter?


If the earth were made out of antimatter it would have long ago been destroyed via annihilation when over millions of years objects such as comets impact it.

Yeah the earth would be in serious trouble with the next big meteorite that hits us. I agree. But that wasn't my question.

Spoiler:
The earth is hit by about 60000 tons of space dust each year. Annihilate that (and an equal amoutn of matter) for 1.08 * 10^25 J of energy that hits the earth each year. Total amount of energy from the sun that hits the earth each year is about 5.5 * 10^24, or half that. So the amount of heat that hits the earth each year gets tripled. How much does that increase global temperatures? I don't know, but probably a lot!
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:36 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Okay, now I just have a totally bizarre question....do we know that most of the rest of the universe is, in fact, matter and not antimatter? And if so, how? I mean, in theory, couldn't an antimatter comet hit us at some point? :?
/doesn't know much about antimatter, and/or if it could possibly be naturally occurring.

It's not a bizarre question, it's a very good one.

The answer is that if parts of the universe were made of antimatter, there should be borders where the anti-matter and matter areas of the universe meet, and those should regularly produce lots of radiation from the annihilations taking place. We don't see that.

A stronger argument comes from the CMBR. The CMBR is almost perfectly flat, which means the universe must have been almost perfectly homogenous when it was formed. Which means there couldn't have been anti anti-matter left at that point, or the universe would not have been so homogenous. And if it wasn't there then, it's not there now.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby minno » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:14 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Okay, now I just have a totally bizarre question....do we know that most of the rest of the universe is, in fact, matter and not antimatter? And if so, how? I mean, in theory, couldn't an antimatter comet hit us at some point? :?
/doesn't know much about antimatter, and/or if it could possibly be naturally occurring.

It's not a bizarre question, it's a very good one.

The answer is that if parts of the universe were made of antimatter, there should be borders where the anti-matter and matter areas of the universe meet, and those should regularly produce lots of radiation from the annihilations taking place. We don't see that.

A stronger argument comes from the CMBR. The CMBR is almost perfectly flat, which means the universe must have been almost perfectly homogenous when it was formed. Which means there couldn't have been anti anti-matter left at that point, or the universe would not have been so homogenous. And if it wasn't there then, it's not there now.


I have more evidence to add. Cosmic radiation is composed in large part of particles accelerated to incredible velocities by extremely distant stars. So far, none of the observed cosmic ray particles have had collisions looking like annihilation reactions.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:24 am UTC

This means we're one step closer to having railgun sporting, computer piloted drones powered by antimatter reactors, right?

Man, this future stuff is awesome!
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby minno » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:34 am UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:This means we're one step closer to having railgun sporting, computer piloted drones powered by antimatter reactors, right?

Man, this future stuff is awesome!


...um, I think we have a few more steps to go. Like capturing more than 38 atoms at a time.

Hmm...if we can get decent fusion power going, could we fuse this antihydrogen and eventually get anti-carbon? It seems like a solid would be much easier to store.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby WaterToFire » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:42 am UTC

I know it was a joke, but I'm gonna comment on it anyway. I'm fairly certain that anti matter will never become an energy source because it takes more energy to produce than we can get out of it. The only way (to my knowledge) we have access to anti matter is by putting stupendous amounts of energy into regular particles and blasting them apart, so that they turn into new stuff. Only a part of that new matter is anti matter, so reacting that again for energy is always going to cost us something. Unless we find a source of ready made anti matter, that's kind of like pouring water in a bucket, using the water to turn a water wheel, and then generating electricity to power a motor that dumps the water back into the bucket.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:11 am UTC

WaterToFire wrote:I know it was a joke, but I'm gonna comment on it anyway. I'm fairly certain that anti matter will never become an energy source because it takes more energy to produce than we can get out of it. The only way (to my knowledge) we have access to anti matter is by putting stupendous amounts of energy into regular particles and blasting them apart, so that they turn into new stuff. Only a part of that new matter is anti matter, so reacting that again for energy is always going to cost us something. Unless we find a source of ready made anti matter, that's kind of like pouring water in a bucket, using the water to turn a water wheel, and then generating electricity to power a motor that dumps the water back into the bucket.
Well, yes, of course - antimatter isn't a very efficient energy source. It is, however, a very very dense energy source - several orders of magnitude denser (in terms of MJ/g) than anything else I'm aware of, and on the order of a billion times denser than any chemical reaction. That's important if you are mass and/or volume constrained. If you want an energy weapon on a small drone, it's a damn good fuel (well, as long as you can get a bit more than 38 atoms, and the containment isn't too huge, and you can convert the energy to a useful form, and so on.)

This is all mostly joking, of course - I know we're no where near an antimatter economy - but it's neat to think about.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby The Reaper » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:16 am UTC

Yep, antimatter isn't really an energy source so much as it is an energy storage. :\ for x units of energy you can store y of it as antimatter, and then transport that antimatter somewhere it can be more useful at. For certain ridiculous amounts of energy, it beats the resistive losses of wires.

If this was that future, that is.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:53 am UTC

Well the main benefits of having anti-matter as a practically feasible fuel-source is warfare and spaceship propulsion. The former because you like being able to pack huge amounts of energy into relatively small volumes, and the latter because you like being able to pack huge amounts of energy into small amounts of mass.

Of course, both have plenty of problems. Obviously the fact that you need more than 38 atoms, and you need a good way to store and produce, and to take energy out of it in a controlled way (well, for military applications you might not need a controlled way). But that's not all. As a spaceship propulsion, a energy source is one thing, but you still need mass for your momentum transfer. So the overall gain might be smaller than you'd think. And for military applications safety is a major problem. Boms that blow up in your face if someone looks at them funnily are not very useful. And terrorists carrying an EMP gun will have a lot of fun with your anti-matter factory - and everything else in a thousand mile radius.

Thinking about it, it's probably a good thing that we can't use antimatter ... yet ...
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Vellyr » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:24 am UTC

This is probably a dumb question, but why doesn't antimatter react with the photons that bounce off of it?

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby The Reaper » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:31 am UTC

Vellyr wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but why doesn't antimatter react with the photons that bounce off of it?

Something about energy levels, and how the photon doesn't do something enough?

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Glass Fractal » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:32 am UTC

Diadem wrote:And terrorists carrying an EMP gun will have a lot of fun with your anti-matter factory - and everything else in a thousand mile radius.


I'm sure that antimater containment would at least be inside faraday cages. Conventional attacks would be the bigger threat to antimatter storage. I bet it's not easy to bomb proof magnetic containment.

Vellyr wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but why doesn't antimatter react with the photons that bounce off of it?


Antimatter only annihilates it's matter counterpart (positrons with electrons, anti-protons with protons, anti-neutrons with neutrons). There are no antiphotons inside of antimatter for it to react with, in fact I've never heard of anti-photons at all.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby frezik » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:42 am UTC

Glass Fractal wrote:
Vellyr wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but why doesn't antimatter react with the photons that bounce off of it?


Antimatter only annihilates it's matter counterpart (positrons with electrons, anti-protons with protons, anti-neutrons with neutrons). There are no antiphotons inside of antimatter for it to react with, in fact I've never heard of anti-photons at all.


Anti-photons move at the speed of dark.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby The Reaper » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:44 am UTC

Photons are charge neutral. Antiphotons have the same charge as photons, but move backwards through time? or something.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby BlackSails » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:31 am UTC

Photons and antiphotons are the same thing.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:11 am UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:
This is all mostly joking, of course - I know we're no where near an antimatter economy - but it's neat to think about.

Don't let the business majors know there isn't one yet...

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Hawknc » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:18 am UTC

I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:28 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

Yeah, well, they should just push that back to 35 and get to work on the damn hoverboards already. They've got a little under five years before we're back to the Future.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby SummerGlauFan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:45 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Hawknc wrote:I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

Yeah, well, they should just push that back to 35 and get to work on the damn hoverboards already. They've got a little under five years before we're back to the Future.


0.0 Antimatter-powered hoverboards...
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:50 am UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Hawknc wrote:I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

Yeah, well, they should just push that back to 35 and get to work on the damn hoverboards already. They've got a little under five years before we're back to the Future.


0.0 Antimatter-powered hoverboards...

If you drop small amounts of anti-matter below your board onto the pavement, you could presumably ride the wave.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Diadem » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:27 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Hawknc wrote:I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

Yeah, well, they should just push that back to 35 and get to work on the damn hoverboards already. They've got a little under five years before we're back to the Future.


0.0 Antimatter-powered hoverboards...

If you drop small amounts of anti-matter below your board onto the pavement, you could presumably ride the wave.

If your hoverboard had a 10m thick concrete shield to catch the ultra-hard gamma rays such an explosion produces, yeah, sure.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:37 am UTC

Diadem wrote:If your hoverboard had a 10m thick concrete shield to catch the ultra-hard gamma rays such an explosion produces, yeah, sure.

Well, they still have 5 years to work out the technicalities. Perhaps the antimatter should be mixed with gamma ray softener, just like they do with washing powder.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Technical Ben » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:03 pm UTC

If you could fit the magnets strong enough to hold the antimatter in the container, would you not even need the antimatter any more? Just a hoverboard with some ridiculously strong magnets?
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby frezik » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:17 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Hawknc wrote:I give it five years before GM demonstrates an anti-hydrogen powered car (in partnership with Shell) as its solution to global warming and claims that production models are only 15 years away.

Yeah, well, they should just push that back to 35 and get to work on the damn hoverboards already. They've got a little under five years before we're back to the Future.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves. First, we need some '80s retro bars where Michael Jackson and Ronald Reagan (yes, the actor!) argue over drink orders, Max Headroom-style. Does anybody have a Wild Gunman arcade cabinet to donate? Maybe we can link it up with the Kinect so the kids don't complain about having to use their hands.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:00 am UTC

frezik wrote:
Glass Fractal wrote:
Vellyr wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but why doesn't antimatter react with the photons that bounce off of it?


Antimatter only annihilates it's matter counterpart (positrons with electrons, anti-protons with protons, anti-neutrons with neutrons). There are no antiphotons inside of antimatter for it to react with, in fact I've never heard of anti-photons at all.


Anti-photons move at the speed of dark.

There is no such thing as light. There is only darkness. Light is the absence of darkness. The reason why light spreads is that darkness is flammable
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Dauric » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:08 pm UTC

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:There is no such thing as light. There is only darkness. Light is the absence of darkness. The reason why light spreads is that darkness is flammable


Aha, -that- explains why Grues stay away from any light source, it immolates their natural habitat.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Cynical Idealist » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:10 am UTC

Diadem wrote:As a spaceship propulsion, a energy source is one thing, but you still need mass for your momentum transfer.

Photon drive.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Patashu » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:34 am UTC

Technical Ben wrote:If you could fit the magnets strong enough to hold the antimatter in the container, would you not even need the antimatter any more? Just a hoverboard with some ridiculously strong magnets?

Even if your magnets got so ridiculously strong that they could levitate by interacting with the Earth's incredibly weak magnetic field, it's not providing a fuel source, just eliminating friction, which is something that you want anyway.

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Impulse » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:56 pm UTC

Wait, isn't CERN making antihydrogens kinda .. old?

We visited them with the physics class back in February, where they showed us the equipment that did it (creating antiprotons and antielectrons, and then getting them to combine in a clever way)

I even touched the thing that did it.

I know, however, that the scientist who worked there, had already seen it done almost a year ago.

Edit, post-rtfa;

Ahh, they've TRAPPED it!

Awesome.

Second edit;

So, now all we need to do is find it naturally occurring, so we can actually put it to some use, energy-wise..

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Dissident Love » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:06 pm UTC

My group, People For The Ethical Treatment of Atoms, insist that our brothers and sisters being held captive at CERN be released at once!
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Plasma Man » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:57 pm UTC

I'm sorry, but you don't have jurisdiction here. These aren't atoms, they're anti-atoms.

Seriously though, this is pretty cool (no pun intended). The main use of it is going to be keeping some antimatter around long enough to let more tests be done on it, finding out if it does actually behave as our models say it should.
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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby Soralin » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:46 am UTC

Impulse wrote:So, now all we need to do is find it naturally occurring, so we can actually put it to some use, energy-wise..


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A961958260
Published: April 29, 1997

WILLIAMSBURG, Va., April 28 — Astrophysicists announced today that they had discovered what appears to be a monster fountain of antimatter erupting outward from the core of the Milky Way.

The newly discovered plume of antimatter rises some 3,500 light-years above the disk of Earth's galaxy, which is about 100,000 light-years across.

More recent: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 160830.htm
A low mass X-ray binary (LMXB) is a celestial system in which a relatively normal star is being eaten alive by a nearby stellar corpse, either a neutron star or a black hole. The gravitational field of the stellar corpse is so strong that it rips gas from the normal star. As this gas spirals down towards that object, it is heated so much that positron-electron pairs can be spontaneously generated in the intense radiation field, although the 511 keV emission is probably too weak to be detected from individual LMXBs by Integral.


I think you might need to add some additional "So, now all we need to do is..", to actually put it to use though. :)

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Re: Antihydrogen

Postby SummerGlauFan » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:19 am UTC

Impulse wrote:Wait, isn't CERN making antihydrogens kinda .. old?

We visited them with the physics class back in February, where they showed us the equipment that did it (creating antiprotons and antielectrons, and then getting them to combine in a clever way)



Hydrogen is just one proton and one electron, and thus antihydrogen one antiproton and one positron (antielectron). Combining them would result in the said particle. How do you think more complex matter was formed from subatomic particles?
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.


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