Assange arrested, in custody

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Assange arrested, in custody

Postby M.C. » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:41 am UTC

Spoiler:
WikiLeaks chief Julian Assange was arrested in London today on suspicion of rape after surrendering to a Swedish arrest warrant, setting up a possible extradition fight that could drag on for months.

Assange, 39, was detained after attending a London police station by appointment at 9.30am London time (8.30pm Melbourne time) and was due to appear at City of Westminster Magistrates Court later in the day, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.

"Officers from the Metropolitan Police Service's Extradition Unit have this morning, Tuesday 7 December, arrested Julian Assange on behalf of the Swedish authorities on suspicion of rape," the statement said.

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"He is accused by the Swedish authorities of one count of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation and one count of rape, all alleged to have been committed in August 2010."

The net has tightened around the Australian former computer hacker since his whistleblower website began releasing thousands of secret US diplomatic cables last week, infuriating the US and other countries.

Assange's lawyers were not immediately available for comment, but they have said he will fight extradition to Sweden, saying they fear he could then be passed on to the United States from the Scandanavian country.

One of his London-based lawyers, Jennifer Robinson, said he was "isolated and persecuted" and that death threats had been made on blogs against Assange's son.

"I think he will get a fair hearing here in Britain but I think our, his, prospects if he were ever to be returned to the US, which is a real threat, of a fair trial, is, in my view, nigh on impossible," she told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation ahead of his arrest.

A court in Stockholm issued an arrest warrant for Assange on November 18. His lawyers have said the case centres around consensual sex with two women.

Assange could now be embroiled in the extradition process for weeks, or even months.

A spokesman for the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) told AFP ahead of Assange's arrest that when the subject of a European arrest warrant appears in court they are given the option to consent to their extradition.

If they dispute extradition a further court hearing is set, where the judge hears from prosecutors and from the subject, said the agency, which is responsible for receiving and certifying international arrest warrants.

The judge then decides if extradition should be ordered or the person should be freed.

The individual has seven days to appeal an extradition order. If there is no appeal, the person has to be handed over within the 10 days after the appeal period expires.

Appeals last for as long as the legal process takes, typically months, going up through the appeal court and supreme court if necessary.

Police sources said Assange was unlikely to be granted bail because of the risk he would try to flee the country.

WikiLeaks itself continued to be chased around the globe following its release of thousands of US diplomatic cables, with Swiss authorities shutting down one of Assange's bank accounts on Monday.

WikiLeaks has already been expelled from the United States where politicians have called for Assange to be treated as a terrorist. Supporters of the website have responded by setting up hundreds of "mirror" sites to keep it online.

In one of the latest leaks, US cables released today showed that NATO had extended an existing defence plan covering Poland to include Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania after they lobbied for extra protection.

Russia said it was "perplexed" by the plans, revealed in Britain's Guardian newspaper, which came just weeks after a NATO-Russia summit hailed as a breakthrough in relations.

AFP


http://www.theage.com.au/world/julian-assange-arrested-20101207-18ofs.html

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby sje46 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:04 pm UTC

The insurance file. It didn't mention the insurance file.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:06 pm UTC

I read here that he didn't intend to "hand him self in" so much as he went to negotiate about the warrant knowing that he could be arrested.

Looks like he was.

I hope things go well for him, if he gets extradited he could be royally fucked.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:47 pm UTC

I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:49 pm UTC

I get it, I get it. Miscarriages of justice are only bad when they happen to people I like.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:52 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.

Eh? You have very little sympathy for a man who is, for now, presumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing?
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Lazar » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:53 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of.

Ninja'ed by SlyReaper on presumption of innocence. It's fine if you don't like him, but a mere accusation shouldn't be the reason.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby JayDee » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:59 pm UTC

He was arrested in London on a Swedish warrant. Why on earth would he end up in the states? I can understand why his lawyers and his team expect that to happen, but is there any legitimate, non-conspiracy-theory-confirming way his arrest on this charge could end up with him in the USA?
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

Considering that the best case "Oops, damn, when we put you on that flight to Sweden you ended up the in the US" confirms conspiracy theories, no, I doubt it.

Edit: Related - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-dept ... 5967281571
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:40 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.

What is the quickest way to hurt someone's reputation? Accuse them of rape in a way they can never completely disprove. No matter what actually happened, he can never entirely shake the doubts. There is not even a need to convict him, the doubts are enough

That's why it is so important to keep innocence until proven otherwise in mind, especially in this case.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby sje46 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:48 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.


What, having consensual sex without a condom? With two women who were totally fine the next day? And, oh yeah, he's probably the most controversial man currently living? People want to not only character-assassinate him, but they actually want to assassinate him. Also, one of the women may have ties to the CIA.

Also, read this: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... _down.html
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:51 pm UTC

Presumption of innocence and guilt by accusation cuts both ways. But in any case he jumped in a Tigers cage and it shouldn't be a surprise to him that he may get eaten. I don't hold that as right or wrong, just as a fact of life.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:56 pm UTC

The coolest thing is that there is literally no winning move one could make against Assange right now. If you're on a side that opposes Wikileaks and Assange then you've already lost, the insurance file in addition to the other circumstances around him and wikileaks gaurentees this.

All outcomes lead to Assange winning, it's just some outcomes are slightly less favourable for Assange.


There is perhaps a theoretically possible way to Take a Third Option, but this way will be essentially impossible to pull off in practice.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:57 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:All outcomes lead to Assange winning, it's just some outcomes are slightly less favourable for Assange.

Like sitting in jail for rape for years?

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:59 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: he jumped in a Tigers cage
Are you talking about the consensual sex, or the publication of documents? Because either way, those are humans, and when act in a cruel and unjust manner, I blame them for those actions.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:07 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:All outcomes lead to Assange winning, it's just some outcomes are slightly less favourable for Assange.

Like sitting in jail for rape for years?


Sure, at which point the insurance comes into effect and the opponent is done in by their own hand. Conspiracy theories abound and many see Assange as even more of a hero and a martyr. Depending on what happens to all the wikileaks staff it might not even affect wikileaks itself as they cetainly have provisional plans beyond the insurance.

The Third Option is to silence him by some method (prison, assassination, other). While simultaneously not making him look like a matyr and hiding the conspiracy against him and additionally somehow preventing the release of the insurance. Then you'd also have to shutdown wikileaks and their staff somehow, again while hiding conspiracy and preventing good PR (which many news organizations are giving wikileaks because they leak to them...). This is improbable to the point that it should be dismissed as a real option.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:16 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.


What, having consensual sex without a condom? With two women who were totally fine the next day? And, oh yeah, he's probably the most controversial man currently living? People want to not only character-assassinate him, but they actually want to assassinate him. Also, one of the women may have ties to the CIA.


I'm quit happy to say that my gut reaction to a rape accusation which is taken seriously by the authorities is one of "wow, they must actually have a fairly solid case", Most controversial man alive or otherwise; there can never be an assumption of innocence until proven guilty unless the accused is anonymised, but that's another (very angry) thread altogether.

I genuinely believe that he gets what he deserves if he ends up in the states, he's been too showman like about the leaks that have damaged the US... Far from seeking to just quietly leak the information, protecting both his identity and his sources; he's made a right royal show of it, so it's hardly surprising that the USA is baying for (metaphorical) blood.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:22 pm UTC

Because leaking information, unlike selling information, isn't profitable so he needs to make a show of it otherwise people won't donate.

Anyway, from the link I linked above;
Sweden is seeking to extradite Mr Assange in relation to "sex by surprise" charges brought by two Swedish women over an alleged incident in mid-August in Stockholm after he presented a seminar there.

His British lawyer, Mark Stephens, described the Swedish charges as a "dispute over consensual but unprotected sex".

Senior Swedish sources familiar with the charges but speaking on condition of anonymity said the case was "very weak".

The charge "sex by surprise"does not exist under Australian law.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Belial » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:26 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:What, having consensual sex without a condom?


If you consent to sex with a condom, and the person goes "lol, surprise, no condom", then you didn't really consent to the sex.

Also, at least one of the women claims she withdrew consent and he continued anyway.

If true, either of these would be grounds for *some* sort of sexual assault charge, and absolutely rightly so.

That said, given the state of sexual assault and rape cases in most countries, I would be very surprised if a prosecutor would have even bothered with these cases had they not had some other reason to want Assange brought down. In the US, both of them would (unjustly) get you laughed out of a courtroom. Which means that, even if the allegations are true (and it could go either way), these women are being used as weapons by the state.

If they're complicit in that use, well, I'm not sure how I feel about that. If they're just dupes, that sucks, because they're being set up to be dragged through the mud by every newspaper and hacker fanboy on earth just so some government types can hurt some other guy. Fuck that.

Jaydee wrote:is there any legitimate, non-conspiracy-theory-confirming way his arrest on this charge could end up with him in the USA?


The US has been making noises for a while about pressing espionage charges or something like that. If they did, he could have fled to another country that doesn't extradite, but as it turns out, that's hard to do if you're sitting in a swedish jail awaiting trial or after sentencing.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Ulc » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
sje46 wrote:What, having consensual sex without a condom?

Also, at least one of the women claims she withdrew consent and he continued anyway.


And the other women works at Swedish foreign relations (meaning, ties with CIA is definitely possible). Last spring she posted a large blog post about how to get revenge if a guy treats you less than perfect, where one of the options was to falsely accuse him of rape. She readily admits that it was consensual sex, and that he did use a condom, but maintains that it was rape, as the reason that the condom broke was that he had obviously punctured it beforehand.

Even if he is guilty of rape (and by this point, I definitely consider it premature to make claims about his innocence or lack thereof), the case against him stinks quite a bit of being used as a political weapon.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby sje46 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:13 pm UTC

If he really did continue when the girl withdrew consent, or if the condom broke and he chose not to tell her, then that is a definite problem. And I hate to do this, but I just really can't trust the women. I withhold final judgement, of course, until we see the evidence at the trial, but these are pretty extreme circumstances, and I think it's much more likely that he is being character assassinated than anything. I don't trust anyone making accusations about him.

Even if he did continue having sex with her without telling her the condom broke, I feel like it's likely the government paid the two women (was this a threesome or something? I'm very confused about what exactly happened. But then again everyone is) to come forward when they normally wouldn't have.

Ulc wrote:as the reason that the condom broke was that he had obviously punctured it beforehand.
Why the hell would any man this side of reason ever do that? It's stuff like this, man.
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I genuinely believe that he gets what he deserves if he ends up in the states, he's been too showman like about the leaks that have damaged the US... Far from seeking to just quietly leak the information, protecting both his identity and his sources; he's made a right royal show of it, so it's hardly surprising that the USA is baying for (metaphorical) blood.
Why does being a showman mean he gets what he deserves? It doesn't matter how anyone does a crime...if they do it with great amount of shame or bragging to their friends later. A crime is a crime, and how showboaty he is is irrelevant.

Also, that's his job. That's his role. The reason why he's a "drama queen" as Jon Stewart calls him, is because he's taken the role of martyr. They want the spotlight to be on him. Why? Because the focus leaves Wikileaks and focuses on "the douchebag" according to the enemies of Wikileaks, and because he would become a martyr for the people who support Wikileaks.

Did you know Wikileaks started 4 years ago? Let most people haven't heard about it until Collateral Murder. There's a reason for that. They did the quiet, safe modus operandi. That didn't work...no one paid attention to them. So now they have to do the suspenseful, dramatic, martyr thing.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:24 pm UTC

sje46 wrote: I feel like it's likely the government paid the two women

Talking about "the government" as if it is one thing makes no sense in this case. It's not as if the Swedish government as a whole has a particular drive to put him behind bars.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby sje46 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:34 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
sje46 wrote: I feel like it's likely the government paid the two women

Talking about "the government" as if it is one thing makes no sense in this case. It's not as if the Swedish government as a whole has a particular drive to put him behind bars.

Fine, "The man".

When I say the government, I mean government employees did. The powers that be. And I didn't mean teh Swedish government in particular. I find it more likely to be the American government.

Assange refused bail: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11937110

I feel like this means we will have a package in our hands soon.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Dauric » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:09 pm UTC

The talk of the "Doomsday File" kind of makes me wonder about Wikileaks commitment to leaking docs. I mean if their methodology is to leak documents regardless of who or what, then how do they justify having leaked documents that are unpublished? If they have the documents but they didn't leak them then that just serves to blow holes in their mission statement of publishing leaked documents without making judgement calls.

I suppose there could be some justification in the "protecting themselves" angle, playing extortion games to try to prevent being shut down, but those aren't exactly working, and it still means that they weren't releasing documents that it was their mission statement to release.

I mean.. They leaked the Iraq diaries, and the ambassadorial memos... But apparently there's something -more important- than those, quite possibly -more important to the people- than those previous leaks, but wikileaks hasn't let those docs out to the public after making a judgment call as to the value of the information, when their own site claims that they do no such thing (IE: making judgment calls about the information beyond simple validation).

Again, I can see justifications for it, but none of them really make the practice look good in the context of what Wikileaks is supposed to be.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:14 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I genuinely believe that he gets what he deserves if he ends up in the states, he's been too showman like about the leaks that have damaged the US... Far from seeking to just quietly leak the information, protecting both his identity and his sources; he's made a right royal show of it, so it's hardly surprising that the USA is baying for (metaphorical) blood.
Why does being a showman mean he gets what he deserves? It doesn't matter how anyone does a crime...if they do it with great amount of shame or bragging to their friends later. A crime is a crime, and how showboaty he is is irrelevant


He's getting what he [all but] asked for... And by releasing information which is classified by the US govt, he definately and knowingly both committed a crime and aided and abetted another more serious crime under US law, just because it was for a "just cause" doesn't mean it wasn't criminal...

WRT the Doomsday file... Surely all the unpublished docs are the ones that were censored because they believed they placed human assets at risk to life, releasing those because they've been compromised is unethical and basically destroys the thread of "good" (or more specifically, not directly bad) that runs through the whole thing.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:The talk of the "Doomsday File" kind of makes me wonder about Wikileaks commitment to leaking docs. I mean if their methodology is to leak documents regardless of who or what, then how do they justify having leaked documents that are unpublished? If they have the documents but they didn't leak them then that just serves to blow holes in their mission statement of publishing leaked documents without making judgement calls.

They plan to release the files slowly to give the press time to find stories within each batch. So the backup mostly means they can't be cut off before they have published everything. And they might be bluffing a bit. Perhaps also Krikkit's point about files they promised not to leak.

TheKrikkitWars wrote: And by releasing information which is classified by the US govt, he definately and knowingly both committed a crime and aided and abetted another more serious crime under US law, just because it was for a "just cause" doesn't mean it wasn't criminal...

Are you sure this is true? If non-US citizens publish documents when they are not in the US, is that legally a crime? I honestly don't know. I guess the US can always make it a crime if they want to, but would other countries accept US jurisdiction in such a case?

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby davidstarlingm » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:26 pm UTC

Dear CIA, Homeland Defense, et al:

If you consider someone to be a threat to national security because they've been airing your dirty laundry, then fine. Assassinate them if you must (remember, you're allowed to do that as long as they aren't a head of state), but we would prefer something a little cleaner, like planting a mini-Stuxnet on his computer servers and arresting him for espionage (I'm sure you can figure out a way to get into the country he's in without stepping on diplomatic toes). That's what we pay you for.

Smearing his name and trying to get him arrested under a trumped-up charge doesn't sit well with us.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby GoC » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:27 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.

Eh?
The girls he supposedly had "surprise sex" (yes, that's the legal term) with were boasting about him after they were supposedly raped.
Given the circumstances, the fact he was accused should not in any way increase your suspicions that he is guilty (it normally would but not here).

TheKrikkitWars: You have most likely committed crimes under Saudi law. You are just as much a criminal as Assange is.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Dauric » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:29 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:WRT the Doomsday file... Surely all the unpublished docs are the ones that were censored because they believed they placed human assets at risk to life, releasing those because they've been compromised is unethical and basically destroys the thread of "good" (or more specifically, not directly bad) that runs through the whole thing.


Well that would be ill thought out. "Don't harass us, or we'll prove that we really are the biggest dickheads around by putting people's lives at risk!"

... great plan...

Zamfir wrote:
Dauric wrote:The talk of the "Doomsday File" kind of makes me wonder about Wikileaks commitment to leaking docs. I mean if their methodology is to leak documents regardless of who or what, then how do they justify having leaked documents that are unpublished? If they have the documents but they didn't leak them then that just serves to blow holes in their mission statement of publishing leaked documents without making judgement calls.

They plan to release the files slowly to give the press time to find stories within each batch. So the backup mostly means they can't be cut off before they have published everything. And they might be bluffing a bit. Perhaps also Krikkit's point about files they promised not to leak.


The NPR report this morning was that under some set of conditions he would text a 256 character string to some undisclosed number making a server dump some collection of files. This wasn't a backlog of stuff they were planning on leaking for 'press acclimatisation', this is stuff they weren't planning on leaking.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:43 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Dear CIA, Homeland Defense, et al:

If you consider someone to be a threat to national security because they've been airing your dirty laundry, then fine. Assassinate them if you must (remember, you're allowed to do that as long as they aren't a head of state), but we would prefer something a little cleaner, like planting a mini-Stuxnet on his computer servers and arresting him for espionage (I'm sure you can figure out a way to get into the country he's in without stepping on diplomatic toes). That's what we pay you for.

Smearing his name and trying to get him arrested under a trumped-up charge doesn't sit well with us.

Sincerely,

We the People

Wut.

If they plant something on his servers to arrest him for ... that is still a trumped up charge. Maybe you don't know what those words mean?


TheKrikkitWars - your position basically seems to be that you deserve everything you get for angering the powerful, regardless of whether the powerful even have a reasonable right to retaliate against you in certain ways? Such as being set up for a phony rape charge rather than arrested for a crime even remotely relevant to whatever's pissing people off? I don't know that I we can claim the charges are a setup, but it seems to be accepted as a possibility by you, and it doesn't seem to bother you.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:04 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:TheKrikkitWars - your position basically seems to be that you deserve everything you get for angering the powerful, regardless of whether the powerful even have a reasonable right to retaliate against you in certain ways? Such as being set up for a phony rape charge rather than arrested for a crime even remotely relevant to whatever's pissing people off? I don't know that I we can claim the charges are a setup, but it seems to be accepted as a possibility by you, and it doesn't seem to bother you.



Bingo... Only an idiot pokes a sleeping bear and believing that they won't get mauled... He knew what the consequences of his actions would most likely be and chose to take them, thus he is deserving.

For what it's worth I don't think the rape charges are neccesarily (or even likely) phoney, I do think that his public profile has played a major role in him being charged... but not in the conspiritorial way that some people seem to think.

I'd like to see the US charge him properly for his role in releasing their classified information, to bring this whole ZOMG "it's a setup" mindset to an end.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

As long as we're victim-blaming, then.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Ulc » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Bingo... Only an idiot pokes a sleeping bear and believing that they won't get mauled... He knew what the consequences of his actions would most likely be and chose to take them, thus he is deserving.

For what it's worth I don't think the rape charges are neccesarily (or even likely) phoney, I do think that his public profile has played a major role in him being charged... but not in the conspiritorial way that some people seem to think.

I'd like to see the US charge him properly for his role in releasing their classified information, to bring this whole ZOMG "it's a setup" mindset to an end.


Are you actually serious here?

Bringing charges on releasing the documents would be fine, if there is actually any legal charges that can possible be brought against him (he is not a US citizen, so treason and a host of other crimes is certainly out of the window), but getting him arrested on a non-valid context is abuse of power, illegal and a absolutely horrible idea.

Edit: Notice that I make no claim to his innocence or not.
Last edited by Ulc on Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby achan1058 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:16 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Bingo... Only an idiot pokes a sleeping bear and believing that they won't get mauled... He knew what the consequences of his actions would most likely be and chose to take them, thus he is deserving.
We will see who's the bear after the whole thing is over. Chances are, US will have it as harshly as that guy. It's unlikely that he will be killed, but it's likely that if everything is leaked, some agents are going to die. In fact, with careful setup, not even say China can do that much to prevent things.
Last edited by achan1058 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Nordic Einar » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:17 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:TheKrikkitWars - your position basically seems to be that you deserve everything you get for angering the powerful, regardless of whether the powerful even have a reasonable right to retaliate against you in certain ways? Such as being set up for a phony rape charge rather than arrested for a crime even remotely relevant to whatever's pissing people off? I don't know that I we can claim the charges are a setup, but it seems to be accepted as a possibility by you, and it doesn't seem to bother you.



Bingo... Only an idiot pokes a sleeping bear and believing that they won't get mauled... He knew what the consequences of his actions would most likely be and chose to take them, thus he is deserving.


Guess you wouldn't have minded too much if the Brits had shot Ghandi then, no? I mean, he would've "gotten what he deserved"?

Assange isn't Ghandi, but seriously. Non-violent civil disobedience should be one of our most valued actions/virtues.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

GoC wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I have very little sympathy for him, especially given the crime he's accused of. If he ends up in the states... It's his own stupid fault.

Eh?
The girls he supposedly had "surprise sex" (yes, that's the legal term) with were boasting about him after they were supposedly raped.
Given the circumstances, the fact he was accused should not in any way increase your suspicions that he is guilty (it normally would but not here).

TheKrikkitWars: You have most likely committed crimes under Saudi law. You are just as much a criminal as Assange is.


Without going into the details of the cases against Assange, because the facts of the case are extremely debatable, Swedish consensual sex laws are a little umm... interesting. From what I understand, it's possible to retroactively withdraw consent contingent on condom usage, and the courts can even rule sex between informed and consenting adults to be rape under some circumstances (who would even bring that charge?)

Part of the problem with this case is that the two women involved have accused Assange of different things at different times and different charges have been thrown out or been picked up by different judges.
The women with possibly CIA ties apparently is the one who charged Assange with 'rape' but the other woman apparently never intended for Assange to be accused of rape at all (and may possibly have only been convinced to charge him with anything after discussing her encounter with the first woman, that's unclear)
The original warrant was for Sex By Surprise, a relatively minor offense with a maximum penalty of about seven hundred dollars and no jail time. Assange was wanted for question in connection with the charge, but the warrant was apparently not considered completely valid, another warrant may have been issued since then but there's not a lot of information available.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:28 pm UTC

Everybody seems to assume that the US Government did what? Forced the Swedes to make the charge? Wiki Leaks chose to go out on a dangerous limb. Being right or wrong has nothing to do with it. So many people will be embarrassed that it's easy to guess that somebody is pissed. People from many countries. I assume Assange is an adult, and as such made an adult choice. Crying pity me may gain him sympathy, but it won't help him if indeed someone is out to get him. And he knew this was a possibility. Or else there would be no Blackmail file. In any case freedom of speech has never been "free". Numerous people have paid with their lives to exercise it.

Look at all the countries that have come out against him. They all know that the next leak may impact them directly. Either expose them as complicit in some form of aid to the US or being branded as an idiot by some Foreign Service Officer. And to what point? What is served here? Any student of history knows that Diplomats have done this type of thing since they came into existence. I refuse to see him as a victim. The release of the Diplomatic cables serve no purpose that I can see. It gives me no insight. It simply looks to me like someones ego is larger than their good sense.

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Belial » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:40 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Bingo... Only an idiot pokes a sleeping bear and believing that they won't get mauled... He knew what the consequences of his actions would most likely be and chose to take them, thus he is deserving.


Predictable and Acceptable are not synonyms.
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They/them

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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Diadem » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:43 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I genuinely believe that he gets what he deserves if he ends up in the states, he's been too showman like about the leaks that have damaged the US...

Wait? Since when is 'Exposing abuse of powers by politicians' equal to 'damaging the country'? A free press is the most important guard dog democracy has. Political shenanigans have to be exposed. If not always, then at least often enough to make politcians worry about it. And, I'd like to add, what he does is entirely legal and constitutionally protected. That won't stop government from trying to take him down though. As always, when governments can't get what they want within the law, they try to cheat.

Far from seeking to just quietly leak the information, protecting both his identity and his sources; he's made a right royal show of it

Making a show is now against the law?

Obviously he's a vain man. People who put some important Ideal before their own safety always are. Does it matter? What's relevant is what is in the leaks, not who published them. Besides, making a show is useful in this case, it brings attention, which wikileads needs.

Dauric wrote:The talk of the "Doomsday File" kind of makes me wonder about Wikileaks commitment to leaking docs. I mean if their methodology is to leak documents regardless of who or what, then how do they justify having leaked documents that are unpublished? If they have the documents but they didn't leak them then that just serves to blow holes in their mission statement of publishing leaked documents without making judgement calls.

I suppose there could be some justification in the "protecting themselves" angle, playing extortion games to try to prevent being shut down, but those aren't exactly working, and it still means that they weren't releasing documents that it was their mission statement to release.

I mean.. They leaked the Iraq diaries, and the ambassadorial memos... But apparently there's something -more important- than those, quite possibly -more important to the people- than those previous leaks, but wikileaks hasn't let those docs out to the public after making a judgment call as to the value of the information, when their own site claims that they do no such thing (IE: making judgment calls about the information beyond simple validation).

Again, I can see justifications for it, but none of them really make the practice look good in the context of what Wikileaks is supposed to be.

I wondered about that myself. But that security file doesn't necessarily have to be things that are very important to the public. TIt could just be dirt. If Assange has proof that Obama hosts SM parties with gay hookers in the oval office, that's not necessarily something the public needs to know in the name of democracy. But it's something that could completely destroy Obama's career. Information like that would make a very good security file.

But honestly, as long as we don't have the decryption code, it's all speculation. The file might even be a pure bluff.
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Re: Assange arrested, in custody

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:13 pm UTC

Everybody seems to assume that the US Government did what? Forced the Swedes to make the charge?

No, that they encouraged Sweden to blow an investigation for a relatively minor offense into a charge for rape. The original investigation was already closed when Swedish political pressure from the top reopened the case elsewhere, with the more serious charges this time.

After that, it lead to an international request for his arrest and his actual arrest with a speed that is usually reserved for obviously guilty murderers on the run. Which suggests more US pressure, or at least a willingness of local authorities to please the US.


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