Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

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The Reaper
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby The Reaper » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:57 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Out of all the people in this thread, how many people can actually do all that? Besides Oregonaut, I mean.

I haven't done 3 of those things.

I also doubt O has done 1 of those things.

Unless cause IS effect, and we're all mad singularities floating nowhere.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:59 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:On a related note, "for most graduates this equates to a 9% graduate tax over 30 years, as they'll never earn enough to fully pay it off." Because even less people paying the whole of their loan off will definately help with the deficit in HE funding.

But it does really cost that much, right? If you don't pay that directly, others are paying that, or you are paying yourself through higher taxes. Just complaining that it would be expensive to pay everything yourself is not enough, you need to give reasons why others should pay a share.


Whatnow?

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I just get a bit irritated from people who complain how much they would have to pay if they had to loan all the money for their studies. If the government pays, it is exactly as much money, and you still eventually pay it back. Just through taxes instead of through the loan payback. The only question is whether we want people with lots of money who didn't go to university to chip in.

Of course, the first loads get suckered because they pay back their own loans and the government debt accumulated in paying for their predecessors. Every right to be pissed, no doubt about that.
Last edited by Zamfir on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:59 pm UTC

Ouch.
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The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Telchar » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:00 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Well rounded can come free if it's such a concern, not at the expense of doubling/tripling the time you would need to spend paying for college. Obviously that won't happen.


Right, and it should come free but keep in mind many HS diplomas from European countries are comensurate of bachelors degrees in the US. While college in Europe should probably be more specialized college in the US needs to be well rounded beacuse our HS are generally worse. That we have to pay more for college because our HS system is so bad is a part of our system that won't change without major overhaul.

I think you're overestimating the time spent on the liberal arts portion of your education. Looking back at my bachelors transcript if I halved my English, history, philosophy/polisci, and lab science requirements and cut out my langauge requirement entirely I would cut out a semester and change (obviously assuming no scheduling shit). It's going to be different in other places by tripling the time? You're saying you could get an engineering PhD in 4 years without taking English? Most people get done with Gen Eds in 4 semesters so....I don't know how your math is working.

I also think that a well rounded populace is better for everyone so have no problem with Gen Ed reqs. I don't want a populace of segregated worker classes.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:02 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Out of all the people in this thread, how many people can actually do all that? Besides Oregonaut, I mean.

I haven't done 3 of those things.

I also doubt O has done 1 of those things.

Unless cause IS effect, and we're all mad singularities floating nowhere.


Oh...WAIT! Ha ha! You meant I haven't planned an invasion, not that I have done nothing on that menu. Interpretation, it's a fun game!
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:06 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
The Reaper wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Out of all the people in this thread, how many people can actually do all that? Besides Oregonaut, I mean.

I haven't done 3 of those things.

I also doubt O has done 1 of those things.

Unless cause IS effect, and we're all mad singularities floating nowhere.


Oh...WAIT! Ha ha! You meant I haven't planned an invasion, not that I have done nothing on that menu. Interpretation, it's a fun game!

There is another one on the list you haven't done.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:12 pm UTC

Robert A Heinlein wrote:A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Ok, I've done all but two. I know I'm capable of doing either though. So I'm good.
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The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:16 pm UTC

I think technically, Heinlein's conn a ship might refer to space ships.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:19 pm UTC

Hrm...that'd definitely be right out then. I know that I've fiddled with the controls on a mockup of the apollo capsule, but a modern spaceship would be out of my range without an instruction manual. Even then, it'd be touch and go on the landing.
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The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:20 pm UTC

But out of context, we have no way of knowing if he meant spaceship or not. QED.

Also, what if it's one of Asimov's spaceships where all you have to do is merge with the computer and think at it?
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:39 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:On a related note, "for most graduates this equates to a 9% graduate tax over 30 years, as they'll never earn enough to fully pay it off." Because even less people paying the whole of their loan off will definately help with the deficit in HE funding.

But it does really cost that much, right? If you don't pay that directly, others are paying that, or you are paying yourself through higher taxes. Just complaining that it would be expensive to pay everything yourself is not enough, you need to give reasons why others should pay a share.


Whatnow?

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I just get a bit irritated from people who complain how much they would have to pay if they had to loan all the money for their studies. If the government pays, it is exactly as much money, and you still eventually pay it back. Just through taxes instead of through the loan payback. The only question is whether we want people with lots of money who didn't go to university to chip in.


Just to be clear... the government set up a private company; the Student Loan Company to loan people money for Tuition and Maintainance (though that's a joke as it'll only pay my rent, hence I'm forever stuggling to pay for food etc.) The loans are interest free until graduation, then track inflation once you're graduated, they're deemed paid after 30 years of payments regardless of how much is repaid, and to top it off the SLC has the power to take the repayments at source...
However, the issue I have is: either the SLC won't be fully recouping its outlays because of the cut-off or the repayments will be more agressive, which will hobble graduates, many of whom already struggle as it is.

In the UK you generally have one of three choices for paying for Higher Education:
  1. Have rich parents
  2. Take out a massive loan
  3. Get commissioned in HM Forces, in exchange for their sponsorship
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Dark567 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:18 am UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:However, the issue I have is: either the SLC won't be fully recouping its outlays because of the cut-off or the repayments will be more agressive, which will hobble graduates, many of whom already struggle as it is.

If graduates are really struggle, than why do they go to Uni in the first place? Are they just struggling less than non-grads? Does everyone in the UK value education so much that they are willing to put their fiscal futures on the line?

TheKrikkitWars wrote:In the UK you generally have one of three choices for paying for Higher Education:
  1. Have rich parents
  2. Take out a massive loan
  3. Get commissioned in HM Forces, in exchange for their sponsorship
This is pretty much the same as the U.S. with the addition of private scholarships and financial aid.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby G.v.K » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:39 am UTC

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.


shouldn't that really be 'fight gallantly' and 'die efficiently'?

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:43 am UTC

Err, no? You want your death to be awesome, and to save practical matters for when you're living.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:10 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Telchar wrote:Because if you are an engineering major you definitely don't need an English course. Wanting students to be well rounded is stupid.
For the love of god, this. Fuck art. Engineering is more art than art will ever be. And fuck that shit ass art phd that gave me a C in an art class that was for non-art majors. Cow didn't know what art even was. </rant>

Hey, remember that thing where I didn't like you that much. Yeah, that's certainly not changed here. A few things, you're wrong. You're still wrong. And quite frankly, most everybody needs to take a couple English courses. Lastly, if you consider engineering more of an art than art, you probably could use a few more humanities classes. Also, perhaps if you'd spent more time in the humanities, you would spend less time making sexist and bigoted statements; especially since, s/he probably had a damn good reason to give you a C.

Though, I'm going to go ahead and go out on a limb here and assume that you never really thought about the implications of your statement.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby G.v.K » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:19 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Err, no? You want your death to be awesome, and to save practical matters for when you're living.


i disagree. an awesome life and a quick death are superior. The movie Synecdoche, New York has perhaps the most beautiful example of such a quick death.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:29 am UTC

Jahoclave, it's not that I disagree per se, but that seems like it at least might have a hidden sarcasm tag.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:24 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:However, the issue I have is: either the SLC won't be fully recouping its outlays because of the cut-off or the repayments will be more agressive, which will hobble graduates, many of whom already struggle as it is.

If graduates are really struggle, than why do they go to Uni in the first place? Are they just struggling less than non-grads? Does everyone in the UK value education so much that they are willing to put their fiscal futures on the line?

Something like that... The previous government wanted 50% of school leavers to go to university, and very nearly got it's wish... the result has been somewhat disasterous.

TheKrikkitWars wrote:In the UK you generally have one of three choices for paying for Higher Education:
  1. Have rich parents
  2. Take out a massive loan
  3. Get commissioned in HM Forces, in exchange for their sponsorship
This is pretty much the same as the U.S. with the addition of private scholarships and financial aid.

Yeah, private scholarships and financial aid however (along with the fact that your state universities are obligated to educate you for less than the private univeristies) make a quite big difference.

Jahoclave wrote:
The Reaper wrote:
Telchar wrote:Because if you are an engineering major you definitely don't need an English course. Wanting students to be well rounded is stupid.
For the love of god, this. Fuck art. Engineering is more art than art will ever be. And fuck that shit ass art phd that gave me a C in an art class that was for non-art majors. Cow didn't know what art even was. </rant>
A few things, you're wrong... You're still wrong. Lastly, if you consider engineering more of an art than art, you probably could use a few more humanities classes.

Nope you're wrong... and if you've never seen a piece of engineering so profoundly perfect, so sleek and purposeful, so elegantly efficent that it's no longer just a functional thing but a practically purposed work of art, well you simply haven't been looking properly. Now that I've got myself so excited over that I'm going to have to go to the National Railway Museum in York and marvel at LNER Mallard during my christmas holidays.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby the tree » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:37 am UTC

For the record - the protests were not just about the fees increase, but the funds decrease that comes with it. Not to mention the EMA 're-structuring', which is of course going to get a lot more people a lot more angry as the vote on that comes up. It's for this reason that I'm writing this from within a campus building at UKC that is still under occupation until the University changes it's public stance: there is a lot more still to be decided and responded to.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Hyphe » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:14 pm UTC

the tree wrote:For the record - the protests were not just about the fees increase, but the funds decrease that comes with it. Not to mention the EMA 're-structuring', which is of course going to get a lot more people a lot more angry as the vote on that comes up. It's for this reason that I'm writing this from within a campus building at UKC that is still under occupation until the University changes it's public stance: there is a lot more still to be decided and responded to.

It's not even that. Well, it's certainly upsetting people even more. But the real cause of all this anger is that fact that the students, by and large, voted for the LibDems, who promised they wouldn't do this. Now (most of them) have, suddenly a lot of young people feel there is no other political outlet. If the LibDems had done what they said - and all voted against the rise, without the umming and awing - this widespread fury wouldn't be felt, people would have confidence in the party still, and the vote almost certainly would have gone through anyway.
The only thing that has come from this is a lot of injuries, the suicide of our third political party, and a public distaste for students. A sad time all round, really.

Personally, I'm furious about the EMA. Student loans are a horrible idea, but they are something people can cope with - unfair, offputting, but not life-changing. EMA, however, is the *only* thing that kids get for that gap between mandatory schooling, and the grants/bursaries/loans/benefits/tax breaks available to uni students. A-level students really don't have anything else - either you have the full support of your family, or you can't get A-levels and thus university - end of story. Why this country has so little support for such an important two years is something I cannot understand, and getting rid of the one thing that is provided is simply inexcusable.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Zanmanoodle » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:18 pm UTC

Here, in Georgia, USofA, we have a thing called HOPE, which pays your tuition to any in-state school if you graduate high school with a 3.0 (B) average or better. It's payed for by the lottery. And anything on top of that, Pell grants and other financial aid help out a lot.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Plasma Man » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

Hyphe wrote:It's not even that. Well, it's certainly upsetting people even more. But the real cause of all this anger is that fact that the students, by and large, voted for the LibDems, who promised they wouldn't do this. Now (most of them) have, suddenly a lot of young people feel there is no other political outlet. If the LibDems had done what they said - and all voted against the rise, without the umming and awing - this widespread fury wouldn't be felt, people would have confidence in the party still, and the vote almost certainly would have gone through anyway.
Actually, had the Liberal Democrats done what they promised and voted against it, the bill would not have passed. The Conservatives didn't form a coalition with the Liberal Democrats for the fun of it, they did it because it was the only way to have a majority government. Luckily for them (but unfortunately for the country), Nick Clegg turned out to be a spineless, lying, two-faced piece of shit who is willing to have his party rubber stamp whatever the Conservatives want, not take a stand on anything and, with the changes to tuition fees and the educational maintenance allowance, sell out the country's future to pay for the bankers' Christmas present.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby stevey_frac » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:46 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:Because if you are an engineering major you definitely don't need an English course. Wanting students to be well rounded is stupid.


Well rounded engineers are more effective in the workplace, sorry about your luck there. You need an engineer to not only be able to conceive awesomeness, but also able to quickly communicate said awesomeness to a manager, in a way that said manager can understand, in order for him to approve the resources necessary to create awesomeness. English helps with that. History of science is also useful to an engineer.

In my home province of Ontario, we were able to chose 4 complementary studies courses. Instead of taking economics, like most of my peers, I took History.

The Reaper wrote:For the love of god, this. Fuck art. Engineering is more art than art will ever be.</rant>


As an engineer, I can certainly appreciate that there can be a creative beauty to engineering, and that you occasionally get a glance at something profoundly brilliant that most of the world will never appreciate, but you clearly have zero respect for the arts, which kinda makes me a sad panda. Mostly because unless you change that, you will never learn to appreciate this whole other beautiful aspect of the people. This world requires arts majors. Lots of them. To think beautiful thoughts, write music, compose poems, write plays, and think about how people think. We need activists, and journalists, and environmentalists. A vibrant society requires it.

Plus, if enough hippies are worried about shit, it means I don't have to and I can spend more time playing video games.



My apologies if there was a [sarcasm] tag there that I missed.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Griffin » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:33 pm UTC

For the person who said it would be useless for everyone to be good at giving orders, that's just silly. If you're ever in any position of a heirarchy except the bottom, giving orders is always important, and even if you are at the bottom, situations are quite likely to come up where you know what to do, someone else doesn't, and coordinated teamwork is an improvement over doing it yourself. Maybe there are people who will never need to - but they should still be able to.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby radio_head » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:41 pm UTC

Considering what a university actually gives a student (that is to say, nothing), it really is overpriced.

We all love giving an institution thousands of dollars for 2.5 hour lectures/class/week by a bad teacher, who in the end teaches you nothing. Then we love spending hundreds more on books, because the teacher failed and we all have to teach ourselves.

IMO students should at least be given the option pay for an exam, and that's it. No point in paying thousands for services you never use and teachers that can't teach.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:49 pm UTC

All of my lecturers have been really helpful in class and out, teaching me things and sharing experiences I couldn't have got elsewhere.
Also, my course doesn't actually have any exams, it's all graded on pieces of work throughout the years.
Your experience is vastly different to mine, it would appear.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby radio_head » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:55 pm UTC

So far my university experience has revolved around business and computer science courses. All very procedural. I spend class time doodling (the pace is always far too slow in a classroom), and my own time learning.

Of course, while I was at some technical college, class was very useful as I was learning computer science and everything was all hands on. I was paying $100 per semester, not 2 grand, and had more class time, better teachers, better services etc. Obviously this college (it's actually called a CEGEP) is subsidized by the government, but still, everything was better for 1/20th of the price.

Growing up I was always told that university is all about teaching yourself... It makes me wonder why I have to pay so much to teach myself now when in the past school was always free and knowledge was forced into my brain.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:16 am UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:In the UK you generally have one of three choices for paying for Higher Education:
  1. Have rich parents
  2. Take out a massive loan
  3. Get commissioned in HM Forces, in exchange for their sponsorship

But, the 2nd option (loan) refers to the SLC, right? In which case, isn't it more like "take out a moderate loan which is available to all citizens, on which little to no interest is paid, which you have no obligation of repaying until you are earning a significant income, and which will hardly affect your ability to take out private loans for a house, car, etc, thereby allowing anyone with an acceptable academic record to attend university."?

I may be extrapolating somewhat from the Australian equivalent.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby nowfocus » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:36 am UTC

I'm Canadian, but if I were in England I'd be pisssssed. I can't believe the liberal democrats supported this. What a step backward for the country.

If you want to cap education costs, I'd much rather them cap the number of spaces than insure only the rich can take them.

How are students supposed to be politically engaged when politicians lie through their teeth on such a core issue?
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:21 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Telchar wrote:Because if you are an engineering major you definitely don't need an English course. Wanting students to be well rounded is stupid.
For the love of god, this. Fuck art. Engineering is more art than art will ever be. And fuck that shit ass art phd that gave me a C in an art class that was for non-art majors. Cow didn't know what art even was. </rant>

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:32 am UTC

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:In the UK you generally have one of three choices for paying for Higher Education:
  1. Have rich parents
  2. Take out a massive loan
  3. Get commissioned in HM Forces, in exchange for their sponsorship

But, the 2nd option (loan) refers to the SLC, right? In which case, isn't it more like "take out a moderate loan which is available to all citizens, on which little to no interest is paid, which you have no obligation of repaying until you are earning a significant income, and which will hardly affect your ability to take out private loans for a house, car, etc, thereby allowing anyone with an acceptable academic record to attend university."?

I may be extrapolating somewhat from the Australian equivalent.


For me, the second option is as you describe. For next year's fresher's... Not so much.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Hawknc » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:11 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:
The Reaper wrote:
Telchar wrote:Because if you are an engineering major you definitely don't need an English course. Wanting students to be well rounded is stupid.
For the love of god, this. Fuck art. Engineering is more art than art will ever be. And fuck that shit ass art phd that gave me a C in an art class that was for non-art majors. Cow didn't know what art even was. </rant>

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Jedidawn » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:34 am UTC

On the subject of EMA, for all the people I know who recieve it or did recieve it, it was just videogame/booze money. They all think it's a waste of taxpayers money, everyone involved on the admin side think it's a waste of money, the teachers think it's a waste of money - infact, until now, the only people I'd ever heard speak in favour of it were Labour MPs, now defending one of their 'throw as much money as possible with no strategy' policies still, because it sounds good to those who have no experience of it. Typical

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:02 pm UTC

Jedidawn wrote:On the subject of EMA, for all the people I know who recieve it or did recieve it, it was just videogame/booze money. They all think it's a waste of taxpayers money, everyone involved on the admin side think it's a waste of money, the teachers think it's a waste of money - infact, until now, the only people I'd ever heard speak in favour of it were Labour MPs, now defending one of their 'throw as much money as possible with no strategy' policies still, because it sounds good to those who have no experience of it. Typical


This is true, It's not enough cash to be of a practical purpose to someone who's parent's can't afford to keep them for 2 more years (the people I knew who were really desperate to stay in education had to work part time after school or on evenings)... it seemed to primaraly finance a pint and pork pie at the pub every lunchtime, Damn tasty!
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Jesse » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:24 pm UTC

Link to a really good article about the protest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ns-crusade

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby torgos » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:12 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:I do believe it should be, "appropriately violent protests," or, "not violent enough protests."

"Tuition increase met with admirable restraint by justifiably homicidal young Brits who can no longer attain higher education."


Does Britain not have a Stafford loans program equivalent, so that students who probably have weaker access to private credit literally cannot come up with funds for education?

If it does have such a program, is the return to a college education so low that paying back 60000 dollars + interest in loans(I finished off my $40000 in debt in a couple years after graduation) makes it no longer worthwhile? If the market valuation for a college education is so low, why even bother 'encouraging' students to acquire these degrees in the first place? There are certainly externalities generated from educating students in certain fields(although generally fields whose graduates can pay back loans without much trouble) that justify some subsidization, but probably not the amount required to make tuition $5000 dollars.

My experience with similar protests in California suggests that complaints come primarily from students who opted into [useless, self-indulgent major that generates no positive externalities], who tend to be the usual suspects for any protests.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Jahoclave » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:46 pm UTC

torgos wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:I do believe it should be, "appropriately violent protests," or, "not violent enough protests."

"Tuition increase met with admirable restraint by justifiably homicidal young Brits who can no longer attain higher education."


Does Britain not have a Stafford loans program equivalent, so that students who probably have weaker access to private credit literally cannot come up with funds for education?

If it does have such a program, is the return to a college education so low that paying back 60000 dollars + interest in loans(I finished off my $40000 in debt in a couple years after graduation) makes it no longer worthwhile? If the market valuation for a college education is so low, why even bother 'encouraging' students to acquire these degrees in the first place? There are certainly externalities generated from educating students in certain fields(although generally fields whose graduates can pay back loans without much trouble) that justify some subsidization, but probably not the amount required to make tuition $5000 dollars.

My experience with similar protests in California suggests that complaints come primarily from students who opted into [useless, self-indulgent major that generates no positive externalities], who tend to be the usual suspects for any protests.

Right, because everybody needs to major in business, or they have no right to complain about the debt trap. Seriously, you can take your neo-liberal outlook on value and shove it. Not everything in the world needs to be viewed in terms of helping the gdp.

That said, your entire argument is unconvincing.

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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby nowfocus » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:06 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Right, because everybody needs to major in business, or they have no right to complain about the debt trap. Seriously, you can take your neo-liberal outlook on value and shove it. Not everything in the world needs to be viewed in terms of helping the gdp.

That said, your entire argument is unconvincing.

Its a valid question: why does the government subsidize university education if it doesn't lead to significantly higher incomes? To be nice? There are plenty of more efficient ways a government could and should be nice.

Why should the government spend thousands to fund a particular kind of major with no market value instead of say investing in libraries to encourage people to read? In Ontario, they have a program where public transit has poetry up where advertisements usually are. Hundreds of thousands of people in several cities are exposed to poetry who wouldn't otherwise be for years, and provided free marketing for Canadian poets who were selected. All for 90k Canadian. How is subsidizing about 10 or so poetry majors a better investment for the country?
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby torgos » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:14 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:I do believe it should be, "appropriately violent protests," or, "not violent enough protests."


Right, because everybody needs to major in business, or they have no right to complain about the debt trap.


While I did not say 'business'(a major that at most universities is probably not very useful as anything other than a signal. I suspect that the only reason it comes off as a 'practical' major in salary data is that people looking to make money select into it), yes, that is essentially the gist of it. Why should other people pay for what is essentially no more than your entertainment? Why not just directly ask that they pay for an HBO subscription, or for a subscription to a 'classic of the month' club, as is to your liking?

If reading and writing about poetry is what will make you happy, I'm not going to say a word if you opt to study it. It's your life. I do, however, object to paying for it. When I pay for it, your decisions suddenly become my problem. But yeah, yeah, I know-like everyone, you want someone else to foot the bill. I certainly do, but don't think it reasonable to ask of others.


Seriously, you can take your neo-liberal outlook on value and shove it. Not everything in the world needs to be viewed in terms of helping the gdp.


/rolleyes

That said, your entire argument is unconvincing.



What, that a college education and solvent finances are perfectly attainable if you make practical decisions about your career path and don't go on a post-graduation spending binge instead of paying off debts?

I hope it's fun being hopelessly disconnected from reality and any sort of perspective.
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Re: Britain increases tuition, met with violent protests

Postby Yakk » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:30 pm UTC

So just so I understand the plan.

The nominal price of education is increased to something somewhat closer to the cost to provide it.

"Loans" are offered to pay for this increase in the price of education to every student. Is there a (difficult) qualification to get these "loan"s?

While you are in the school, and while your income is below the median for the UK, you do not have to pay back one cent of the "loan".

Once your income passes the median of the UK, 9% of your income past the median is garnished to be put against the "loan".

The nominal total amount of the "loan" grows by 3% per year (or is it 3% over government-prime? I'm not clear -- could someone clarify?), but only in years where your income passes the median of the nation. And the "loan" is completely forgiven after ... 20? 30? ... years after you get it (or finish school? I'm unclear.)

So first: If the above is close to true, how does it ever make someone unable to go to university? Unless they don't qualify for these new loans. I guess it can be unwise to go to university if you don't think the income increase from doing so will match the payments you will have to make on your "loan", and you don't value the education you will gain highly enough to make the sacrifice to pay for the experience.
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