Riots in Egypt

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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby kinigget » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:22 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:
Also, is there seriously no one who has anything to say about this? FUCKING WATCH IT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpVyhU6Dbl4

Vive la Revolution!

In all seriousness though, that is simultaneously very cute, and very encouraging. I remember that a major concern has been whether the protest can maintain momentum, and here we are, ten or eleven days later and all reliable reports show that the movement is still just as strong as ever.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Zamfir » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

Bullshit. Information about what's going on over there is readily available if you're willing to look for it.


Hey, relax. We all have access to the same news sources, it's just they can't tell us many things that will be critical for the events to come. It's unpredictable, and no one knows what's going to happen. Egyptians have no clue what's going to happen.

For example, what are the people thinking who are not protesting? How much of them like the protesters, how much of them dislike them, how much don't care? What about the rank-and-file of the army? What about their officers, and the very top officers?

And what are important people discussing behind the scenes? How much do opposition groups trust each other, the army, and the army them? And they won't agree amongst each other either. Presumably, people in the army are negotiating among themselves about the course of action, and so are opposition groups. And with each other, with Mubarak loyalists, and with Mubarak loyalists who might switch their stance. And if they decide something, will people at large accept that?

Etc, etc. From the looks of it, Mubarak and the current setup will be replaced by something. By what, no one has a clue, and it might even take some years before we find out.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:20 pm UTC

Found this on reddit. Not very big, but somewhat sums up the egypt thing for people that are unfamiliar.
http://blogs.colgate.edu/khanegyptprimer.pdf
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Puzzlemaker » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:52 am UTC

RezardVareth wrote:Bad argumentation can be painful to answer, but responding with empty logic just perpetuates the cycle.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Triangle_Man » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:50 am UTC

This is really, really spinning out of control.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:13 am UTC

Puzzlemaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqydgpyVNKY


What are the gun control laws like in Egypt?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Glass Fractal » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:26 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Puzzlemaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqydgpyVNKY


What are the gun control laws like in Egypt?


Liscences are required and a "genuine need" for a weapon must be shown. Nonetheless In 2006 there were more guns in the hands of private citizens than the police. Open carry is also legal.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/egypt
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:29 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:This is really, really spinning out of control.

That was Wednesday, so it's hardly "spinning out of control". It's actually remained surprisingly calm since then, with widespread stone throwing and beatings, but not city wide crackdowns, massacres or anything like that. When a few thousand out of approximately a million people are out of control, the situation in general is controlled.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:01 pm UTC

Also, it totally wasn't spinning out of control. Pro-Mubarak demonstrators throwing stones at protesters and attempting to provoke a violent response? That was the PLAN.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby stratosfender » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:07 pm UTC

According to local news it's starting to fade away, they said "people are trying to go back to their routines". This sucks, i like to watch the world burn, as long as no one dies of course.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

stratosfender wrote:According to local news it's starting to fade away, they said "people are trying to go back to their routines". This sucks, i like to watch the world burn, as long as no one dies of course.

It won't fade away just yet, but the protesters do need to do something to apply additional pressure else they will just be another one of the failed protests that never got anything done.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

The protesters are still going to be demonstrating. It's just not going to be every day.

As of right now, the response from the government seems like it means that democracy will out. If that changes, it'll be back to protests every day.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Point Beta » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:51 pm UTC

There is talk of them rounding up protesters and organizers, so it will be interesting to see what will be happening in the coming days and weeks.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:As of right now, the response from the government seems like it means that democracy will out. If that changes, it'll be back to protests every day.

Hmmmn. I'm worried by the US taking the stance that it is. It seems to be legitimising Suleiman as a successor to Mubarak, and at the same time using "moderate" language that empowers Mubarak to control the transfer of power, as if he is in any way mandated to do so. There is probably a good chance that the outcome will be a less totalitarian regime, with some democracy, but with Suleiman in charge, in a flagrant dismissal of the protesters demands.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Gellert1984 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:40 pm UTC

Day 14 of protests as it happens on BBC

According to the BBC's six o'clock news the Egyptian government have spread rumours that foreign journalists are Israeli spies. There was footage of a reporter and camera crew's, vehicles being blocked off, pulled out of their vehicles and taken to a police station, a crowd building outside until the military were called in to protect the reporters.

A few interviews with people outside of the major cities came off as rather disturbing, people claiming that Mubarak has done nothing wrong, its only the people that work for him that are guilty of crimes such as embezzlement, that the protesters have already gotten what they want, etc.

Reading the Day 14 as it happened log, I'm surprised at the number of stories I havent heard, the google exec arrested for being outspoken on the internet, RPGs fired at a police barracks, an explosion on a natural gas pipeline, etc.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

@Dream: That does not reflect a full and accurate understanding of what's going on right now, or the constitutional constraints at play. Basicallly, any change is going to have to involve the Vice President, by necessity. The US isn't legitimizing Suleiman as anything more than someone to hold power in interim to help change the lay of the land.

If Mubarak just stepped down, the Egyptian Constitution states that the Speaker of the House take his place. The Speaker of the House is, notably, a member of the Mubarak's National Democratic Party.

In order to change the Egyptian constitution, there needs to be someone holding the office and power of the president. What seems to be in the works is a situation where Mubarak is removed from power in all but name, and leaves his authority to the VP and the interim government, whose task it will be to end the emergency laws, release the political prisoners, and amend the constitution so that there can be more than one political party, there are term limits for the Presidency, and so that more people can be eligible to run for president.

When he meets those demands, Egypt will become a functioning democracy (one of the great things about overthrowing a regime that pretends to be a democracy is that they usually have all of the right institutions in place, albiet subverted to serve the demands of a dictator). If he doesn't, the protesters can step up their game.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:29 am UTC

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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby FrStv » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:20 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:The US isn't legitimizing Suleiman as anything more than someone to hold power in interim to help change the lay of the land.


Yes, it is. The will of the people matters much much more than what the US wants, and frankly, ally of the current regime or not, the US has no place dictating what should happen (no more than the current government can claim legitimacy, anyway). The people have overwhelmingly called for Mubarak to GTFO, so the fuck out he had best soon get.

EsotericWombat wrote:If Mubarak just stepped down, the Egyptian Constitution states that the Speaker of the House take his place. The Speaker of the House is, notably, a member of the Mubarak's National Democratic Party.

In order to change the Egyptian constitution, there needs to be ...


Bull. Assuming you have the tiniest grasp of US history, you should know that to be the case. "If King George just ceded the colonies to the revolutionaries, the King's previous decrees state that..."
...you see where I'm going with this?

The fact of the matter is that the Egyptian constitution is a document which can essentially only be rewritten by those already closely associated with if not an unabashed part of the existing regime. When the people declared said regime to be illegitimate, shouldn't the regime's constitution be viewed under a similar light? If enough people get behind it, constitutions can be rewritten - from scratch if necessary - existing regime and constructs thereof be damned.

EsotericWombat wrote: ... (one of the great things about overthrowing a regime that pretends to be a democracy is that they usually have all of the right institutions in place, albiet subverted to serve the demands of a dictator). If he doesn't, the protesters can step up their game.


By the previous reckoning, the system which allowed said regime to seize power remains intact and can only be altered by those named by said regime? How can that be called "overthrowing"? "Overthrowing" in this case would by definition be the protesters marching on the palace and giving Mubarak no concession or option aside the opportunity to step down before they cut him down.

/rant
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

This is really good news in terms of international support for regime change. Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood isn't going to be fielding a Presidential candidate in the upcoming elections.

It seems like they want to prove to the People that they're serious about taking part in a democratic government.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Rinsaikeru » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:11 pm UTC

That's great news--it's been amazing to see the co-operation between the Coptics and Muslims during this.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:11 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:This is really good news in terms of international support for regime change. Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood isn't going to be fielding a Presidential candidate in the upcoming elections.

It seems like they want to prove to the People that they're serious about taking part in a democratic government.


That is excellent news.
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Mass protests and strikes escalate in Egypt [WSWS]

Postby MEGAMANTROTSKY » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:26 pm UTC

There is an 8 page thread already for this topic--do not start new threads for topics that are already under discussion. -Rin

http://wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/egyp-f09.shtml

Cairo’s Tahrir square was filled with the largest demonstration yet Tuesday, as masses of Egyptians rejected the “orderly transition” through which the Obama administration and its principal ally, former military intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, are attempting to salvage Egypt’s dictatorial military regime.

The mass demonstration in Cairo, staged as the uprising shaking the US-backed dictatorship of President Hosni Mubarak enters its third week, was accompanied by similar outpourings in Alexandria, Egypt’s second-largest city, and in smaller towns and cities across the country.

Even more significantly, the mass popular demonstrations demanding the ouster of Mubarak were joined by a growing wave of strikes by Egyptian workers and angry demonstrations by youth demanding jobs.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:54 pm UTC

FrStv wrote:
EsotericWombat wrote:The US isn't legitimizing Suleiman as anything more than someone to hold power in interim to help change the lay of the land.


Yes, it is. The will of the people matters much much more than what the US wants, and frankly, ally of the current regime or not, the US has no place dictating what should happen (no more than the current government can claim legitimacy, anyway). The people have overwhelmingly called for Mubarak to GTFO, so the fuck out he had best soon get.
...

Bull. Assuming you have the tiniest grasp of US history, you should know that to be the case. "If King George just ceded the colonies to the revolutionaries, the King's previous decrees state that..."
...you see where I'm going with this?

The fact of the matter is that the Egyptian constitution is a document which can essentially only be rewritten by those already closely associated with if not an unabashed part of the existing regime. When the people declared said regime to be illegitimate, shouldn't the regime's constitution be viewed under a similar light? If enough people get behind it, constitutions can be rewritten - from scratch if necessary - existing regime and constructs thereof be damned.

...

By the previous reckoning, the system which allowed said regime to seize power remains intact and can only be altered by those named by said regime? How can that be called "overthrowing"? "Overthrowing" in this case would by definition be the protesters marching on the palace and giving Mubarak no concession or option aside the opportunity to step down before they cut him down.

/rant


I'm sorry, but just how is the Egyptian Constitution to be discarded? Do you have a plan that doesn't involve a bloody rebellion? Egypt is hurting badly enough already, and NONE of the demonstrators want that. Right now, the movement is well-positioned to leverage their protest capital to force democratic reforms. If they tried to bite off more than they can chew, the whole house of cards would fall.

Maybe you're the one who needs a refresher on US History. It took us thirty years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence to get a Constitution that worked! And even as such, we still kept in place England's legal traditions. The Declaration of Independence was, among other things, an argument that separation from England comported with existing legal concepts of the People's rights.

Egypt has a Constitution that can be altered sufficiently to transition it into a functioning democracy. Do you seriously think that we would have started from scratch under those circumstances?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby sardia » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:33 pm UTC

I believe the current demands are similar to Tunisia's movement. Remove anybody and everybody in the dictator's party from power, which leaves the institutions alone.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:43 am UTC

(graphic) another van running over people and then receiving desserts.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pt5aJbU9Hwc#t=1m05s
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby FrStv » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:Do you have a plan that doesn't involve a bloody rebellion? Egypt is hurting badly enough already, and NONE of the demonstrators want that. Right now, the movement is well-positioned to leverage their protest capital to force democratic reforms. If they tried to bite off more than they can chew, the whole house of cards would fall.

With hundreds dead in the past couple weeks, thousands injured, who knows how many still locked away, it can be argued that "bloody rebellion" is an apt description of the current situation. Too much blood has been spilled already, and sadly there will almost certainly be more before this is over. What I'm hinting at here is that well-coordinated direct action by the protesters could minimize that - possibly more so than maintaining the status quo of predominantly peaceful protesters exercising mostly passive resistance and being beaten, arrested, detained, shot, run over, whipped and having rocks and even Molotov cocktails thrown at them for all their efforts. The demonstrators made what they want very clear - Mubarak and his regime out, immediately. Period. Mubarak seems to be responding to this by, instead of acquiescing, trying to wait it out and hoping people's short attention spans work in his favor. You used the words "the protesters can step up their game" - I agree with the idea, but I'm saying that now, as opposed to some undefined time in the future, strikes me as the most prudent time for the protesters to do so.
EsotericWombat wrote:Maybe you're the one who needs a refresher on US History. It took us thirty years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence to get a Constitution that worked!

While I didn't intend to call your historical knowledge into question in my original post, and apologize if that's how I came off then, I'm now obliged to point out that if you don't need a history lesson, surely you need one on basic arithmetic. Despite their not being ratified by all states until 1781 (<5 years), the Articles of Confederation were written and essentially in use (e.g. we "got" it) inside of 18 months of the declaration's signing. We didn't keep it for the long run, true, but for 11 years (7 after ratification) it served its purpose. If in no other respect but this, it was like our current constitution - it wasn't the absolute ideal best thing ever, it had its share of flaws, but it worked. If "a Constitution that worked" was a misnomer and you were referring to our current constitution, though, thirty years is still WAY wrong. It was written within eleven years of the Declaration and ratified within twelve. If you're referring to the constitution plus the bill of rights, a little over fifteen years from the declaration. By my reckoning, that puts your figure as inaccurate by a factor greater than twenty, but if you twist your words I'll concede and let you only be wrong by a factor of two. I'm not saying that's not still a long time, but please don't talk down to me when you can't even get your own argument straight.

Furthermore, it bears noting that when you consider that this happened in a time before electricity/telegraphs/radios/transportation faster than a horse, and especially when you consider that ours involved a prolonged war against a foreign government which just so happened to be the dominant world power of the time, 1-2 years to set up an interim government and 15 to solidify a constitution which remains 200+ years later is really not all that bad. There's not really a foreseeable scenario pitting Egyptian protesters against, say, US or Chinese military forces - their goal is to depose a single regime, on their own turf, with relatively little police and (quite possibly zero) military resistance. Wouldn't that be a walk in the park by comparison?
EsotericWombat wrote:And even as such, we still kept in place England's legal traditions. The Declaration of Independence was, among other things, an argument that separation from England comported with existing legal concepts of the People's rights.

Sorry, but it seems you implied a couple of points there that I'm having some difficulty with: That scrapping an existing set of laws in favor of better ones precludes keeping legal tradition, and that Egyptian protesters initiating a coup against an illegitimate regime in the defense of their basic rights somehow violates current "legal concepts of the People's rights." Sorry, but honestly I'm not even aware of a way in which that could make any sense whatsoever, so you'll have to fill me in there.
EsotericWombat wrote:I'm sorry, but just how is the Egyptian Constitution to be discarded?

EsotericWombat wrote:Egypt has a Constitution that can be altered sufficiently to transition it into a functioning democracy. Do you seriously think that we would have started from scratch under those circumstances?

You seem to be taking the phrase "starting from scratch" a tad too literally. I'll admit it was funny when Sagan did that, but seriously, come on.

I never did say that scrapping their entire constitution was the ideal approach, or anywhere close. Their current constitution can be altered - my problem with this is the fact that their current constitution can only be altered by those in power, regardless of the people's demands. This and similar parts which work against the people should be scrapped, and they can be scrapped. Is it so difficult to imagine the aforementioned unfavorable aspects of the constitution, much like the curfews and orders to disperse, being reduced to nothing more than a minor hurdle, an ignorable psychological construct which can be flouted if not outright nullified by a sufficiently powerful wave of popular resistance?

To put it another way: you don't have to invent an entire universe to make your pie "from scratch" - hell, you don't even need to plant and/or grow a tree if you don't want to - but you do have to get up off your ass and go to some sort of market and buy a few real apples instead of that canned filling crap, y'dig?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

Fingers crossed, everyone...

Hopefully, he goes, and hopefully, the military aren't taking power for themselves.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:58 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Fingers crossed, everyone...

Hopefully, he goes, and hopefully, the military aren't taking power for themselves.

I hope this goes well.


edit: wayyyyyyyyy at the bottom.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/02 ... -military/
Update, 4 p.m.: So Mubarak isn’t stepping down, as per his speech, declaring that he safeguards the people’s wishes. Tahrir Square, al-Jazeera shows, is furiously chanting at him to step down. Wow.
>:\

and some more time dated news.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/10/eg ... chief-says

Live video! http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/?foo4
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

I hope things stay relatively peaceful and the demonstrators keep pushing for what they want.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:I hope things stay relatively peaceful and the demonstrators keep pushing for what they want.

In alexandria there's a crowd of pissed off protestors heading towards the northern military command base, according to al jazeera.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

Is the military still more or less on the demonstrator's side? I'm not super up-to-date on Egypt but I thought mostly just police and the presidential guard were the potential causes of slaughter.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:Is the military still more or less on the demonstrator's side? I'm not super up-to-date on Egypt but I thought mostly just police and the presidential guard were the potential causes of slaughter.

The cairo crowd is pissed off and heading towards the state tv stations. oh yea, freedom of information, here we come.

update: Omar suleimen has been delegated by mubarak to be in charge or something, but mubarak himself has not stepped down.?

in response to the question: the military has been mostly fence sitting the entire time. Presumably the presidential guard is still doing their job.

update: now omar is pleading for the young people to go home, and to not listen to the satellite tv stations, because they're the bad guys.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby MEGAMANTROTSKY » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:Is the military still more or less on the demonstrator's side? I'm not super up-to-date on Egypt but I thought mostly just police and the presidential guard were the potential causes of slaughter.

According to this article, that doesn't seem to be the case. The military have have officially declared themselves to be "neutral", but it appears they have targeted anti-government protesters and kidnapped them for interrogation purposes. What follows is a link and the first two paragraphs of the article in question.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... re-accused
The Egyptian military has secretly detained hundreds and possibly thousands of suspected government opponents since mass protests against President Hosni Mubarak began, and at least some of these detainees have been tortured, according to testimony gathered by the Guardian.

The military has claimed to be neutral, merely keeping anti-Mubarak protesters and loyalists apart. But human rights campaigners say this is clearly no longer the case, accusing the army of involvement in both disappearances and torture – abuses Egyptians have for years associated with the notorious state security intelligence (SSI) but not the army.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Radical_Initiator » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

Yeah, I love it when dictators play the "I will not bow to foreign pressures" card. Hey, Hosni, have you seen that group of folks standing in the square in the middle of town? Yeah, they're not Americans. They're not French. I don't care how much pressure you think foreign media or leaders can place on you - the real story is your own countrymen, standing outside your door, shouting for you to GTFO. So, feel free to stand up and GTFO.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:47 pm UTC

This is troubling at best. Wish I could watch al jazeera at work >.<
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:07 pm UTC

The Speech
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05290.html
In the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate, dear fellow citizens, my sons, the youth of Egypt, and daughters, I am addressing you tonight to the youth of Egypt in Tahrir Square, with all of its diversity.

I am addressing all of you from the heart, a speech from the father to his sons and daughters. I am telling you that I am very grateful and am so proud of you for being a symbolic generation that is calling for change to the better, that is dreaming for a better future, and is making the future.

I am telling you before anything, that the blood of the martyrs and the injured will not go in vain. And I would like to affirm, I will not hesitate to punish those who are responsible fiercely. I will hold those in charge who have violated the rights of our youth with the harshest punishment stipulated in the law.

I am telling families of the innocent victims that I have been so much in pain for their pain, and my heart ached for your heartache.

I am telling you that my response to your demands and your messages and your requests is my commitment that I will never go back on to. I am determined to fulfill what I have promised you in all honesty, and I'm determined to execute and carry out what I have promised without going back to the past.

This commitment is out of my conviction of your honesty and your movement and that your demands are the demands - legitimate and just demands. Any regime could make mistakes in any country, but what is more important is to acknowledge these mistakes and reform and correct them in a timely manner, and to hold those responsible for it accountable.

I am telling you, as a president of the country, I do not find it a mistake to listen to you and to respond to your requests and demands. But it is shameful and I will not, nor will ever accept to hear foreign dictations, whatever the source might be or whatever the context it came in.

My sons and daughters, the youth of Egypt, dear fellow citizens, I have announced, without any doubt, that I will not run for the next presidential elections and have said that I have given the country and served the country for 60 years in public service, during wartime and during peacetime.

I have told you my determination that I will hold steadfast to continue to take on my responsibility to protect the constitution and the rights of people until power is transferred to whomever the people choose during September, the upcoming September, and free and impartial elections that will be safeguarded by the freedom - the call for freedom.

This is the oath that I have taken before God and before you. And I will protect it and keep it until we reach - we take Egypt to the safety and security.

I have given you my vision to get out of this current situation, to accomplish what the youth and the people called for, within the respect for the legitimacy and the constitution in a way that will accomplish security, and security for our future and the demands of our people, and at the same time will guarantee a framework of peaceful transition of power.

Through a responsible dialogue between all factions in the society, with all honesty and transparency, I have given you this vision under commitment to take the country out of this current crisis, and I will continue to accomplish it. And I'm monitoring the situation hour by hour.

I'm looking forward to the support of all those who are careful about the security and want a secure Egypt, within a tangible time, with the harmony of the broad base of all Egyptians that will stay watchful to guard Egypt and under the command of its military forces.

We have started a national dialogue, a constructive one, that included the youth who have called for change and reform, and also with all the factions of opposition and of society. And this dialogue resulted in harmony, and preliminary harmony in opinions that has placed us on the beginning of the road to transfer to a better future that we have agreed on.

We also have agreed on a road map - a road map with a timetable. Day after day, we will continue the transition of power from now until September. This national dialogue has -- has met and was formed under a constitutional committee that have looked into the constitution and what was required - and looked into what is required, and the constitution reforms that is demanded [inaudible].

We will also monitor the execution - the honest execution of what I have promised my people. I was careful that both committees that were formed - to be formed from Egyptians who are honorable and who are independent and impartial, and who are well-versed in law and constitution.

In addition to that, in reference to the loss of many Egyptians during these sad situations that have pained the hearts of all of us and have ached the conscience of all Egyptians. I have also requested to expedite investigations and to refer all investigations to the attorney general to take the necessary measures and steps - decisive steps.

I also received the first reports yesterday about the required constitutional reform - reforms that was suggested by the constitutional and law experts regarding the legislative reforms that were requested. I am also responding to what the committee has suggested. And based on the powers given to me according to the constitution, I have presented today a request asking the amendment of six constitutional articles, which is 76, 77, 88, 93 and 187, in addition to abolishing article number 79 in the constitution, with the affirmation and conviction that later on we can also amend the other articles that would be suggested by that constitutional committee, according to what it sees right.

Our priority now is to facilitate free election - free presidential elections and to stipulate a number of terms in the constitution and to guarantee a supervision of the upcoming elections to make sure it will be conducted in a free manner.

We - I have also looked into the provisions and the steps to look into the parliamentary elections, but those who have suggested to abolish article number 179 in the constitution will guarantee the balance between the constitution and between our security and the threat of terror, which will open the door to stopping the martial law, as soon as we regain stability and security and as soon as these circumstances -- circumstances assure the stability.

Our priority now is to regain confidence between citizens among themselves and to regain confidence in the international arena and to regain confidence about the reforms that we have pledged.

Egypt is going through some difficult times, and it is not right to continue in this discourse because it has affected our economy and we have lost day after day, and it is in danger -- it is putting Egypt through a situation where people who have called for reform will be the first ones to be affected by it.

This time is not about me. It's not about Hosni Mubarak. But the situation now is about Egypt and its present and the future of its citizens.

All Egyptians are in the same spot now, and we have to continue our national dialogue that we have started in the spirit of one team and away from disagreements and fighting so that we can take Egypt to the next step and to regain confidence in our economy and to let people feel secure and to stabilize the Egyptian street so that people can resume their daily life.

I was a young man, a youth just like all these youth, when I have learned the honor of the military system and to sacrifice for the country. I have spent my entire life defending its land and its sovereignty. I have witnessed and attended its wars with all its defeats and victories. I have lived during defeat and victory.

During the victory in 1973, my happiest days were when I lifted the Egyptian flag over Sinai. I have faced death several times when I was a pilot. I also faced it in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia and elsewhere. I did not submit nor yield to foreign dictations or others. I have kept the peace. I worked towards the Egyptian stability and security. I have worked to the revival in Egypt and the prosperity.

I did not seek authority. I trust that the majority -- the vast majority of the Egyptian people know who is Hosni Mubarak, and it pains me to what I have -- what I see today from some of my fellow citizens. And anyway, I am completely aware of the -- what we are facing and I am convinced that Egypt is going through a historical -- a historical moment that necessitates we should look into the higher and superior aspirations of the nation over any other goal or interest.

I have delegated to the vice president some of the power - the powers of the president according to the constitution. I am aware, fully aware, that Egypt will overcome the crisis and the resolve of its people will not be deflected and will [inaudible] again because of the - and will deflect the arrows of the enemies and those who [inaudible] against Egypt.

We will stand as Egyptians and we will prove our power and our resolve to overcome this through national dialogue. We will prove that we are not followers or puppets of anybody, nor we are receiving orders or dictations from anybody -- any entity, and no one is making the decision for us except for the [inaudible] of the Egyptian [inaudible].

We will prove that with the spirit and the resolve of the Egyptian people, and with the unity and steadfastness of its people and with our resolve and to our glory and pride.

These are the main foundations of our civilization that have started over 7,000 years ago. That spirit will live in us as long as the Egyptian people - as long as the Egyptian people remain, that spirit will remain in us.

It will live amongst all of our people, farmers, intellectuals, workers. It will remain in the hearts of our senior citizens, our women, our children, Christians and Muslims alike, and in the hearts and minds of all those who are not born yet.

Let me say again that I have lived for this nation. I have kept my responsibilities. And Egypt will remain, above all, and above any individuals -- Egypt will remain until I deliver and surrender its -- it to others. This will be the land of my living and my death. It will remain a dear land to me. I will not leave it nor depart it until I am buried in the ground. Its people will remain in my heart, and it will remain -- its people will remain upright and lifting up their heads.

May God keep Egypt secure and may God defend its people. And peace be upon you.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

Some people are calling to gather everyone to take the palace tomorrow, and a few were already starting to walk that way. The army's generals are unsure of the loyalty of itself, the presidential guard is still fairly loyal.

This news comes from an interview with one of the pro-democracy activists
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

tl;dr:
I have delegated to the vice president some of the power - the powers of the president according to the constitution.
1) Which powers? All of the powers? Or just "throw out the first pitch" powers?
2) Is there anything preventing Mr. Mubarak from taking these powers back whenever he wants? After all, he's still the president.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:tl;dr:
I have delegated to the vice president some of the power - the powers of the president according to the constitution.
1) Which powers? All of the powers? Or just "throw out the first pitch" powers?
2) Is there anything preventing Mr. Mubarak from taking these powers back whenever he wants? After all, he's still the president.

And thus, why everyone is pretty pissed.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Diadem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:33 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:Some people are calling to gather everyone to take the palace tomorrow, and a few were already starting to walk that way.

Too late. Mubarak is clearly secure in his position again now. He would not have given such a speech otherwise. They should have stormed his palace much earlier if they had wanted to be succesful.

The protesters lost the momentum. Mubarak has had time to realign the people around him and make sure of their loyalty.

I wonder what role America played in all this. Probably not a very good one. I hope wikileaks gets their hands on a few choice documents soon.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister
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