Libya's Protests and Civil War

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Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:01 pm UTC

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02 ... .protests/
Messages and videos posted on social media sites Thursday signaled that anti-government protests in Libya were gathering steam in several cities, with some turning violent on a "Day of Rage."

There were reports of 16 deaths, but they could not be independently confirmed.

A text message sent out earlier on mobile phones had threatened Libyans planning to take to the streets, activists and bloggers said.

"From Libya's youth to anyone who dares to cross any of the four red lines come and face us in any street on the ground of our beloved country," the Short Message System dispatch said, referring to a speech by Saif el-Islam Gadhafi, Moammar Gadhafi's son, in which he described the lines as Islamic law, the Quran, Libyan security and his father.

They apparently did little to deter demonstrators. Protests in the isolated North African nation broke out this week, part of a larger anti-government movement sweeping the region.

CNN does not have journalists in Libya and was unable to confirm the extent of the demonstrations unfolding there.
2009: Gadhafi's decades in power
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Human rights groups have reported gradual moves toward freedom of expression in Libya, but Gadhafi's government retains control over most of the media in Libya and monitors and censors the fledgling private media outlets.

Libyan websites had posted calls for a "Day of Rage" on Thursday, the anniversary of a 2006 demonstration in which security protests killed at least 12 protesters.

State-run television, however, showed demonstrations in support of Gadhafi, who has ruled Libya for more than four decades.

A source in Tripoli who is close to senior members of the government told CNN that several events Thursday showed support for Gadhafi, including a gathering of several hundred people in the capital and others riding, brandishing Libyan flags from their cars.

The source had said Wednesday that he was not aware of further anti-government protests following a demonstration in Benghazi Tuesday night.

But Ahmed Elgasir, a researcher at the Geneva, Switzerland-based Libyan Human Rights Solidarity, said that serious clashes between protesters and security forces occurred Thursday in Benghazi.

The day before, at least 38 people were injured after police fired tear gas and used batons to disperse crowds in Benghazi, the online newspaper Quryna reported.

Human Rights Watch reported one death in Benghazi -- based on its sources inside the country who were not identified because of security concerns.

Enough Gaddafi, an anti-Gadhafi Libyan exile group in the United States, reported six deaths in Beghazi, based on local sources.

Elgasir said his group's sources on the ground said 10 people were killed in Baida Thursday and that the city was surrounded by security forces. He said he was unable to contact people in Baida Thursday because the internet and cell phone text messaging had been shut down.

Abdulla Darrat, spokesman for Enough Gaddafi, told CNN that hospitals in Baida were inundated and that doctors were running out of medical supplies to treat the injured.

Elgasir also said demonstrations were taking place in Zentan, south of Tripoli.

Gadhafi is acutely aware of discontent with the government and has been moving to address popular grievances before they surfaced on the streets, an independent source told CNN.

Libya, like many of its Arab neighbors, is suffering from economic hardship and a lack of political reform. Unemployment rates among the nation's youth are high.

Gadhafi has spoken with groups of students, lawyers and journalists in the past few weeks, the source told CNN.

On one occasion, the longtime ruler appointed an outspoken member of the lawyers' union as its leader, removing the syndicate's old guard, according to the source. He also promised action to address the country's housing crisis.

Human Rights Watch reported that security forces have arrested 14 Libyans in connection with the demonstrations. Among them were human rights activists, journalists, lawyers and two key members of the families of an alleged 1996 massacre at the Abu Salim jail.

Demonstrations erupted after the detention of the family members, the rights group said. There have been regular public protests for the past two years calling for an independent probe into the killings at Abu Salim.

Novelist Idris al-Mismari told the al-Jazeera network that plainclothes security officers used tear gas, batons and hot water on the crowds. During his live interview, the line went dead. Witnesses told Human Rights Watch that he was arrested then.

One of the protesters likened the situation in Libya to Egypt, telling Human Rights Watch that "they are sending baltaqiyyas (thugs) to beat us."

U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Libya should listen to its people.

Secretary of State Hilary Clinton had made clear that "countries across the region have the same kind of challenge in terms of the demographics, the aspirations of their people, the need for reform," he said.

"And we encourage these countries to take specific actions that address the aspirations and the needs and hopes of their people," Crowley said in a news briefing Wednesday. "Libya certainly would be in that same category."

A highly placed Libyan source close to the government sought to downplay the reports of unrest. The source asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

"There is nothing serious here," the source said Wednesday. "These are just young people fighting each other."

Libya, he said, was not Egypt.


edit: updated title
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby olubunmi » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Libya is not Egypt, yet...

But it's true in a way, there are some key differences between Libya and Egypt, the main one being that it's much less densely populated, so there cannot be protests on the scale we saw on Cairo and Alexandria.
But there are protests anyways.

I wonder how this will develop, as I wonder about all the countries in the region. There aren't many left now which where not shaken up by demonstrations...

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

If only the western world could get this much into an uproar over something other than a sportsball team winning a sportsball title.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:If only the western world could get this much into an uproar over something other than a sportsball team winning a sportsball title.

I still get perplexed and bewildered with the unhealthy levels of fascination with most sporting activities...

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:15 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:If only the western world could get this much into an uproar over something other than a sportsball team winning a sportsball title.

They are protesting because they don't have a voice in government, not because they care less... Or that's suppose to be the idea behind democracies.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:If only the western world could get this much into an uproar over something other than a sportsball team winning a sportsball title.

They are protesting because they don't have a voice in government, not because they care less... Or that's suppose to be the idea behind democracies.

Exactly, supposed to be... Yet, so very often isn't. Hence the above.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Paranoid__Android » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:38 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:If only the western world could get this much into an uproar over something other than a sportsball team winning a sportsball title.

I still get perplexed and bewildered with the unhealthy levels of fascination with most sporting activities...


I couldn't disagree more.

Anyway, I digress. From the news reports the protests don't seem to be on the same scale as the Egypt ones. I don't think they'd be big enough to bring down the government... Even if they do, power vacuums tend to get filled by unfriendly people....
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:35 am UTC


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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:08 am UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12512536
At least 46 people are now known to have died in clashes between anti-Gaddafi protesters and security forces in Libya since Wednesday.

The true death toll may be higher, with 35 deaths reported by a single hospital in the second city, Benghazi, on Friday alone.

State media have warned of retaliation against critics of Muammar Gaddafi, in power for more than four decades.

Websites have been blocked and electricity shut off in some areas.

The mainstay of the unrest is in regional towns and cities, where many people live in poverty.

Media restrictions make it difficult to verify reports independently but the BBC has confirmed that websites including Facebook and al-Jazeera Arabic were blocked.

Benghazi's airport was closed amid reports that protesters had taken it over.
Crowd fired on

Security forces opened fire in Benghazi on Friday when protesters approached a residential compound used by Colonel Gaddafi when he visits the city, which is about 1,000 km (600 miles) from the capital Tripoli, eyewitnesses say.

The city's al-Jala hospital received the bodies of 35 people killed in the shooting, according to the Associated Press news agency and al-Jazeera.

One protester told the BBC that soldiers had switched sides in some areas and joined the demonstrations.

"The soldiers say we are citizens of this country and we cannot fight our citizens," he said. "We respect our people, we don't need to fight them."

There were also reports of tanks being parked outside the city's court building.

According to Amnesty International, al-Jala hospital reported 28 unrest-related deaths on Thursday, while the Associated Press reported only 12 that day in Benghazi.

In a statement on its website, Amnesty added that 15 people were also killed on Thursday in the eastern city of al-Bayda.

Video from al-Bayda showed bloodstained bodies in a mortuary and protesters torching a municipal building and demolishing a statue of the so-called "green book", which sets out Col Gaddafi's ideology.

Oea newspaper, owned by one of Col Gaddafi's sons, reported that demonstrators had lynched two policemen in the city.

It also reported outbreaks of violence in Darnah, east of al-Bayda, where police stations are said to have been evacuated.

A number of protesters were reportedly killed in Darnah on Thursday, adding to the uncertainty over the final death toll for three days of protests.
'Red lines'

Amid the crackdown, the semi-independent Quryna newspaper reported that the government would replace many state executives and decentralise and restructure the government.

It was unclear whether the political move was in response to growing unrest.

Earlier, the pro-government Al-Zahf Al-Akhdar newspaper threatened that the authorities would "violently and thunderously respond" to the protests.

"The people's power, the Jamahiriya [system of rule], the revolution, and Colonel Gaddafi are all red lines and those who try to cross or come near these lines are suicidal and playing with fire," it said.

Col Gaddafi is the Arab world's longest-serving leader, having ruled oil-rich Libya since a coup in 1969.

Analysts say the situation in the country is different from Egypt because Col Gaddafi has oil cash to smooth over social problems and is still respected in much of the country, though less so in the Cyrenaica region around Benghazi.

The British Foreign Office is now advising UK citizens against all but essential travel to Benghazi, Ajdabiya, al-Bayda, al-Marj, Derna, Ajdabiya, Tobruk and areas bordering Sudan, Chad, Niger and Algeria.
Libya also blocked internet access for awhile, but its back on?
http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/02/lib ... ct-1.shtml

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:07 pm UTC

Some more interesting facts(?) that have not been given much circulation because it's very hard to verify, as there is no internet, no foreign journalists can enter even covertly, and the only information is form sporadic phone calls that are hard to hear form the gun and mortar fire:

The African mercenaries are from (among others?) Zimbabwe, returning the favor from the early 80's when Gaddafi sent troops there to help Mugabe. They arrived on five separate flights.

There are also reports of (presumably North?) Korean mercenaries. That's plausible as Mugabe had also deployed his North Korean trained Fifth Brigade then.

The city of Al Bayda was temporarily in the hands of the opposition after the local police joined the protesters to push the mercenaries out, but the mercenaries deplyed heavy weapons including mortars and possibly missiles and have presumably taken back control of it.

The information that heavy machine guns and mortars have been deployed in Benghazi is pretty well confirmed.

EDIT: Latest: some footage from Al-Jazeera suggests protesters in Benghazi manged to take control of a building of the security services and have managed to arm themselves, possibly including artillery.

People don't seem to know that Libya has very little to do with Tunisia and Egypt, those two are normal autocracies; Libya is closer to totalitarian, although it's more complicated than that. Protesters demolishing the statue of the Green Book is not that far from North Koreans demolishing the Juche Tower. Anything that happens in Lybia can't not be a lot more bloody and messy.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:00 pm UTC

UPDATES: Al-Jazeera have a webcam feed form a laptop with an unknown source of connectivity, streaming live from Benghazi; hospitals in the city report over 500 dead, 250 of them died today. The morgues are full.

The city of Darnah is under siege. 30 mercenaries from Chad and Nigeria have been captured by the protesters who are holding it.

The mercenary barracks have been captured by the opposition in the historic town of Cyrene, they gave 50 casualties.

All airports in Eastern Libya are under opposition control, preventing more mercenaries from being flown in.

UPDATE: Humanitarian aid packages are being prepared in Alexandria, Egypt, to be flown in to opposition-controlled airports in eastern Libya.

UPDATE2: The connectivity is by some sort of satellite link apparently. And it doesn't seem like the mercenaries managed to recaputre Al Bayda after all. In Benghazi, only the district with the barracks is still not under opposition control.

UPDATE3: Sources claim mercenaries managed to land in Benghazi minutes ago after all, oh shit.

UPDATE4: Reports of mass rapes by mercenaries begin to surface; Gaddafi's nephew killed by grenade during attack on barracks (unconfirmed).

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Paranoid__Android » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

zombie_monkey wrote:The city of Darnah is under siege. 30 mercenaries from Chad and Nigeria have been captured by the protesters who are holding it.

The mercenary barracks have been captured by the opposition in the historic town of Cyrene, they gave 50 casualties.

All airports in Eastern Libya are under opposition control, preventing more mercenaries from being flown in.

UPDATE: Humanitarian aid packages are being prepared in Alexandria, Egypt, to be flown in to opposition-controlled airports in eastern Libya.

UPDATE2: The connectivity is by some sort of satellite link apparently. And it doesn't seem like the mercenaries managed to recaputre Al Bayda after all. In Benghazi, only the district with the barracks is still not under opposition control.

UPDATE3: Sources claim mercenaries managed to land in Benghazi minutes ago after all, oh shit.

UPDATE4: Reports of mass rapes by mercenaries begin to surface; Gaddafi's nephew killed by grenade during attack on barracks (unconfirmed).


This looks is starting to look more like a revolution than protests... I really hope this turns out well with not too many more casualties.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Arancaytar » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:15 pm UTC

With entire cities under siege and police battling mercenaries, it sounds more like a civil war. I also suspect casualties will rise a lot still - and that Gaddafi will yet wish he had stepped down. Mubarak is out of power and Ben Ali is in exile with an international arrest warrant (and, I just heard, hospitalized after a stroke, but anyway); but if the opposition does win, then Gaddafi will be lucky to get out alive after these atrocities.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:36 pm UTC

Snipers are shooting from the barracks in Benghazi at people in surrounding buildings who look out their windows. The hospitals are out of supplies and beds. The (some?) pipelines that Lybian National Oil corporation exports through have been destroyed by the rebels. http://on.fb.me/hGPR2s -- this is the part of the city that the barracks is in, still resisting the rebels.

EDIT: Keep in mind all of this is extremely hard, actually impossible, to verify. There is very few ways for any information to get out of eastern Lybia at the moment.

New: Al Jazeera claims protesters in the western Lybian town of Az Zawiyah, near the capital Tripoli, burned down Gaddafi's residence in the town and are heading towards the capital. There's 50 000 of them.

New2: Al Jazeera eywitnesses report 200 Libyan soldiers executed for refusing to fire on protesters; more mercenaries captured, Tunisian and Sub-Saharan African.
Italian opposition scandalized by Berlusconi refusing to "bother" Gaddafi. OK, I'm talking a break from following this.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ssent.html
A Libyan journalist said of the African mercenaries: "The soldiers are vicious killers. People are so terrified of them that they've been doing everything possible to get away.

"Women and children were seen jumping off Giuliana Bridge in Benghazi to escape. Many of them were killed by the impact of hitting the water, while others were drowned."


http://audioboo.fm/boos/282959-englisht ... ibya-feb17
Executing doctors IN HOSPITALS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12516156
Using mortars now as well.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Griffin » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:13 pm UTC

Just... wow. I don't even know what to think about this.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

From what I can gather from reports on twitter, the mercenaries and army in the Benghazi barracks requested safe passage to the airport with their weapons, were refused by the rebels, are retreating under gunfire towards the airport. The commander of the barracks has been arrested. 'Benghazi is now not only free, but it is free and armed'. An army brigade from a different barracks joined the rebels.

UPDATE: Reports of Algerian troops landing in the capital Tripoli in the west of the country.

Summary of stuff that is more or less confirmed independently, by Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122014259976293.html
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:33 pm UTC

This is horrific. I kept thinking the unrest in the Middle East has been a lot like Europe in 1848, but without the violent suppression by foreign mercenaries. So much for that. I don't even know what to say or do.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

So, some analysis -- if they captured the barracks, that means they might have anti-aircraft guns, because there were reports earlier those inside might be using AA guns to fire at protesters. That will come in handy if Gaddafi tries to land the Algerian troops in Benghazi. And the army still remaining in Benghazi knows how to use them.
UPDATE: Or they might not need to worry about that, because reports of gunfights in Tripoli are coming now, he'll need the Algerians there. Also most communications seem to have now been cut off in western Libya also. Somewhat unrelated but interesting, Gaddafi's old buddy Mugabe arrested 52 people for watching a film about the protests in Egypt.
EDIT: In the Guardian: Libya protests analysis: 'For Muammar Gaddafi it's kill or be killed'

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

Reportedly, video of people celebrating in Benghazi: http://on.fb.me/hPnseW
Reportedly, protesters with rocks running towards a building with snipers positioned on the roof, warning, graphic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKL7zx7TpuY
Tweets say the Minister of the Interior and the representative to the Arab League have resigned and joined the protests. Al Jazeera reports huge crowds in central Tripoli, all government buildings on fire; tweets say gunshots heard near Gaddafi's central compound. Saif Al-Islam is supposed to make a speech on national TV later, seems increasingly unlikely.
Tweets say the protesters in Tobruk preemptively took over the airport and no mercenaries landed there in the first place. (EDIT: typo)
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

The interesting thing about the zergling rush or "overrun" type of attack, is that it basically relies on your enemy not being able to reload very quickly. Great for attacking snipers.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby lqxpl » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

So long as the protesters remember that they outnumber the aristocracy, they will succeed.

It is probably too late to hope for low body counts (the Libyan authorities seem to take the, "We have more bullets than they have people," approach to handling protests), but hopefully this will come to a head, and then to a close soon.

This is the kind of thing where the body count grows O(t^2).

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

Yes, especially if you pellet them with rocks, that would interfere with their ability to reload.

So latest... the Lybian ambassador to China resigns, says Gaddafi fled to Venezuela -- that could be a move to calm the protesters with a lie. Rumours that: 1) Mutasim, the son who's head of the elite hit squad has shot the "reformist" son Saif Al-Islam; 2) Army units are rebelling one after another and fighting the Revolutionary Guard near the central Tripoli barracks which is the last known location of Gaddafi.

Rumours are just getting out of hand at this point.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:55 pm UTC

Rumors though they are, an army revolt would be in line with the Al Jazeera report that 200 soldiers were executed for refusing to fire on protesters/revolutionaries. We shouldn't discount it entirely, yet.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:03 pm UTC

I'm currently watching Saif Al-Islam's speech on Al Jazeera English live. He doesn't look hurt, the claim was the was shot by his brother in the shoulder. Poeple expect he will announce he is taking over from his dad as dictator. I think he's probably deluded if he thinks he can defuse the situation, and that's where he's currently going. He's doing the same thing Ben Ali and Mubarak did in their final TV addresses, even down to talking in local rather than standard Arabic. He's saying the mercenaries are illegal immigrants on drugs* and a plot of their _enemies_ or something if I understand what he means. He sounds pretty crazy, but hey, he _is_ the son of a psychotic totalitarian dictator... He also said only 14 people have died so far in the whole of Libya.

* He later specifically said "Ecstasy". LOL :D And he was just called the Libyan Sarah Palin on twitter, pretty fitting :)

This is actually most insane** speech anyone has ever made on television, probably. It will probably lead to him being lynched, if he wasn't going to be before.

CNN confirms Benghazi is cointrolled by the protesters, and that protesters are fighting mercenaries on pickup trucks in the center of Tripoli: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/20/libya.protests/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

EDIT: ** and rambling, incoherent.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:02 am UTC

Nice to know that the mercs are so full of love for their fellow man due to the ecstasy, that they feel the need to slaughter people.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Game_boy » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:49 am UTC

Unlike Egypt and Tunisia, the protestors don't really seem to have a common goal of democracy.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:52 am UTC

What makes you think that?

EDIT: Actually, everything else aside, that's also logically impossible, as Lybia is by all measures pretty much as anti-democratic as it's possible for a country to be. Any change is practically impossible to be for the worse.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Dream » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:12 am UTC

zombie_monkey wrote:This is actually most insane** speech anyone has ever made on television, probably.

Never heard his dad then, have you?
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby JamesP » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:22 am UTC

I really don't see why the west doesn't get more involved in North Africa. Yes, it's not our fight (not that that stopped 'us' before) and dictators are massively more profitable than democracies, but the horse has bolted; We need to get on the protesters (or at least the new regime's, democratic or not) good side before mob rule becomes even more apparent and anti-western forces come to the fore.

And unless by some miracle a stable regime appears any time soon in each of the 'successful' revolution-states then mob rule will get worse and worse and anarchy is the only destination without either an interim UN-peacekeeper presence or the existing military actually helping the situation instead of trying to grasp for its own power.

But whadda I know, I only have two posts.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:37 am UTC

A post-revolutionary Arab state won't necessarily Occidentalist or a chaotic anarchy any more than a revolution elsewhere would. I'm more than a little skeptical of the idea that a revolution can't lead to stable government without UN intervention, especially since I can't actually remember a UN intervention being the primary cause of a stable post-revolution government.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:34 am UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... KX20110220
Members of a Libyan army unit told Benghazi residents on Sunday they had defected and "liberated" the city from forces supporting veteran leader Muammar Gaddafi, two residents said.

Habib al-Obaidi, who heads the intensive care unit at the main Al-Jalae hospital, and lawyer Mohamed Al-Mana, told Reuters members of the "Thunderbolt" squad had arrived at the hospital with soldiers wounded in clashes with Gaddafi's personal guard.

"They are now saying that they have overpowered the Praetorian Guard and that they have joined the people's revolt," Mohamed said by telephone. It was not possible to independently verify the report. (Reporting by Souhail Karam in Rabat; editing by Jon Boyle)

Also:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41689225/ns ... tn_africa/
there's an interactive thing on the bottom thats neat.

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Iulus Cofield
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:55 am UTC

Well, holy shit. Things are moving fast. Army support, or at least non-intervention, is pretty crucial in a revolution.
But this also raises the danger of the army taking over, and it is Colonel Gaddafi after all.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:59 am UTC

Dream wrote:
zombie_monkey wrote:This is actually most insane** speech anyone has ever made on television, probably.

Never heard his dad then, have you?

Plenty of times, he did sound more insane.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby JamesP » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:A post-revolutionary Arab state won't necessarily Occidentalist or a chaotic anarchy any more than a revolution elsewhere would. I'm more than a little skeptical of the idea that a revolution can't lead to stable government without UN intervention, especially since I can't actually remember a UN intervention being the primary cause of a stable post-revolution government.


I'm not saying that a stable government can't appear without the UN,I'm saying it might take a hell of a lot longer and I meant that the west should want the post-revolutionary state to be Occidentalist, not that it would be.

By mob rule* I meant a lack of the normal state presence; police, fire brigades, massive bureaucracy, not neccessarily ''chaotic anarchy'' as in looting, gangs, lack of supplies etc. Taking away the state doesn't have to lead to these things, but as time goes on things will get worse. That's unless the new regime gets its crap in order soon.


*As an example, see the incident with Lara Logan. The crowd decided she was a Jew, whore and foreign so they targeted her; If there had been an effective police presence (assuming it's a proper constabulary and not the state-armed thugs that Egypt's used to) that wouldn't of happened.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:39 am UTC

So, what's your point then? You admit there was no adequate police in Egypt... but they did actually protect at least foreigners due to tourism. Libya has been isolated and brainwashed into hating foreigners for more than 40 years. It has never been safe to be a foreigner there and they were indeed often victims of mob violence. On occasions where the police intervened they would often be used as scapegoats by the authorities themselves and tortured. For example in one case where they used foreign medics as scapegoats for an HIV epidemic in a hospital (that began before they arrived). The state of medical care there is abbysmal, one of the grievances of the protesters is that the regime has neglected all funding to hospitals and schools. So... you say that this is a bad thing, but want it to continue, rether than there being a chance for Libya to gradually open up and maybe that to change?

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:06 pm UTC

Al Jazeera wrote:Two civilian helicopters, followed by two Libyan fighter jets, have landed in Malta. Only one of at least seven passengers are reported to be carrying passports. All passengers are currently being held by immigration officials. Al Jazeera's Karl Stagno-Novarra, reporting from Malta, says the Mediterranean island is preparing to be used as a base for evacuation of European citizens from Libya, one hour's flight away.


Earlier there were reports that jet fighter pilots refused to attack protesters in Tripoli, while earlier in Benghazi, during the weekend, military helicopters had done so. Al Jazeera says helicopters are circling the Green Square in Tripoli but not firing on protesters.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:13 pm UTC

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Gen ... tors-.html
Al-Jazeera reported Monday that the Libyan air force has bombed protesters who were on their way to an army base, according to eyewitness testimony.


http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/114364/2 ... /libya.htm
Rumors that Gaddafi fled to Venezuela.

http://twitter.com/Reuters/status/39690515037294592
Justice Minister resigned due to the excessive violence against protestors.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby the_bandersnatch » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Anyone have any info on the Warfla tribe? I've not heard of them before the recent news articles (unsurprisingly, I know nothing about the desert tribes of Libya), but a few preliminary searches by me have brought up no sources on them other than the recent news articles mentioning them. It would be interesting to get some background on what seems to be one of the Libyan Revolution's important players.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

The Lybian Youth Movement twitter feed initially said they were joining the protests, then that they turned to Gaddafi's side, then retracted the last one and that they're still on the side of the protesters.

The Reaper wrote:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/84734/Libya-Spirals-Out-Of-Control%3B-Air-Force-Bombs-Protestors-.html
Al-Jazeera reported Monday that the Libyan air force has bombed protesters who were on their way to an army base, according to eyewitness testimony.



Crap, they bombed them? It seems the air force is also divided..?


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