Libya's Protests and Civil War

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby leromarinvit » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:24 pm UTC

olubunmi wrote:Let's hope they stay united after Gaddafi is defeated...

I hope so too. But as soon as the tribal leaders start to fear for their own power, I think they'll forget the sudden unity pretty quickly. Sowing hate between different groups of people is a very effective way of keeping your own power and privileges unquestioned - divide et impera. It's up to the people to see through this and stand together.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:56 pm UTC

A Libyan plane reportedly carrying the daughter of Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's leader, has been turned back from Malta after it was denied permission to land.

"The [crew] initially said they had 14 people on board. They were circling overhead saying they were running low on fuel," Cal Perry, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Malta, said.

"At that point the ambassador from Libya who was here in Malta was called in to take part in the negotiations on whether or not they were going to allow this plane to land.

"As he entered the talks it became clear from the pilots that Aisha Gaddhafi, Muammar Gaddhafi's only daughter, was aboard the plane. The government said it was an unscheduled flight, it doesn't matter who is on board; they said it cannot land and diverted the plane back to Libya."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 40203.html
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby leromarinvit » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:00 am UTC

3arabawy offers an interesting angle on the "no fly zone" discussion:
3arabawy wrote:This aerial danger is being overinflated by the Western powers to legitimize the enforcement of a no fly zone, which means NATO is in.

To imagine having NATO troops in Libya, after watching their horrible performance in Afghanistan, is a nightmare. #Libya

Those troops which have been involved in the Afghan massacres cannot be the guardians of the Libyan revolution suddenly. #NATO

Libya is falling in hands of revolutionaries. airforce is collapsing under mutinies. The idea u need NATO-sponsored nofly zone is malicious.

Chants in several videos circulating of the Libyan revolt, accuse Gaddafi of being a "US agent". How'd the people of Libya welcome NATO?

There is no better tactic to increase the US military presence in our region and secure the oil flow other than having NATO troops.

RT Dima_Khatib @3arabawy of course the people of #Libya would not welcome NATO or Italy. The whole idea is that they become free and sovereign #jan17
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:03 pm UTC

90% of Libya has fallen
http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/90-of-l ... hands.html
The LAT reports that the rebellion against Muammar Qaddafi’s 41-year dictatorship in Libya headed toward an end-game on Wednesday, as Misurata, the country’s third-largest city (pop. 600,000), fell to the opposition. Significantly, Misurata is in the west of the country, where support for Qaddafi had been stronger. It is only 100 miles east of the capital, Tripoli.

Most of the country stretching from the outskirts of Tripoli east toward Egypt is now in the hands of popular committees allied with local security forces that have defected from the dictator. Even to Tripoli’s west, the rebellion had spread to some small towns. Qaddafi is increasingly left only with a sullen and sanguinary Tripoli, about 1 million people, where the streets are ghostly and marauding security forces hotrod it through the streets, sometimes firing indiscriminately.

Aljazeera Arabic is making the point that a lot hinges on the Libyan tribes’ response to the crisis. The reporter says that the officer corps is actually an assemblage of tribal notables cultivated by Qaddafi over the years, and in the end tribal loyalties may win out. The BBC concurs.

Thus, The city of Az-Zintan 150 km to the southwest of Tripoli is a major tribal center, Including of the powerful Warfala tribe, which has turned on Qaddafi. The az-Zintan tribes are even facilitating the volunteer activities of youth who want to go to the capital and help rescue its besieged populThe LAT reports that the rebellion against Muammar Qaddafi’s 41-year dictatorship in Libya headed toward an end-game on Wednesday, as Misurata, the country’s third-largest city (pop. 600,000), fell to the opposition. Significantly, Misurata is in the west of the country, where support for Qaddafi had been stronger. It is only 100 miles east of the capital, Tripoli.

Most of the country stretching from the outskirts of Tripoli east toward Egypt is now in the hands of popular committees allied with local security forces that have defected from the dictator. Even to Tripoli’s west, the rebellion had spread to some small towns. Qaddafi is increasingly left only with a sullen and sanguinary Tripoli, about 1 million people, where the streets are ghostly and marauding security forces hotrod it through the streets, sometimes firing indiscriminately.

Aljazeera Arabic is making the point that a lot hinges on the Libyan tribes’ response to the crisis. The reporter says that the officer corps is actually an assemblage of tribal notables cultivated by Qaddafi over the years, and in the end tribal loyalties may win out. The BBC concurs.

Thus, The city of Az-Zintan 150 km to the southwest of Tripoli is a major tribal center, Including of the powerful Warfala tribe, which has turned on Qaddafi. The az-Zintan tribes are even facilitating the volunteer activities of youth who want to go to the capital and help rescue its besieged population.

The former leader of the Awlad Sulaiman tribe, Sheikh Saif al-Nasr, went on Aljazeera and broadcast an appeal to the young people of this tribe and others in the south to join in the protests and end the dictatorship.

Likewise, the Tarhun tribe has largely washed its hands of Qaddafi. It is key because about a third of the residents of Tripoli belong to it.

And even some members of Qaddafi’s own Qadhadfa tribe are turning on him.

On the Libyan-Egyptian border, Members of the Awlad Ali tribe, who trace their origins back to Libya, condemned the iron-fisted crackdown of the regime.ation.

The former leader of the Awlad Sulaiman tribe, Sheikh Saif al-Nasr, went on Aljazeera and broadcast an appeal to the young people of this tribe and others in the south to join in the protests and end the dictatorship.

Likewise, the Tarhun tribe has largely washed its hands of Qaddafi. It is key because about a third of the residents of Tripoli belong to it.

And even some members of Qaddafi’s own Qadhadfa tribe are turning on him.

On the Libyan-Egyptian border, Members of the Awlad Ali tribe, who trace their origins back to Libya, condemned the iron-fisted crackdown of the regime.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Adacore » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:18 pm UTC

I worry that the media is understating how much power Gaddafi still has (although admittedly from his speeches he sounds truly desperate, and it's hard not to believe everyone now thinks he's completely insane). Tripoli and the surrounding area is still under his control, as I understand it, and while that may be a small proportion of the country by area, around a quarter of the Libyan population live in that small area, and the wealth and military force in and around Tripoli is probably comparable to if not greater than that across the whole of the rest of Libya.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Negated » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I worry that the media is understating how much power Gaddafi still has (although admittedly from his speeches he sounds truly desperate, and it's hard not to believe everyone now thinks he's completely insane). Tripoli and the surrounding area is still under his control, as I understand it, and while that may be a small proportion of the country by area, around a quarter of the Libyan population live in that small area, and the wealth and military force in and around Tripoli is probably comparable to if not greater than that across the whole of the rest of Libya.

BBC has a good writeup on this topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12558066

It seems Gaddafi still has the force to hold on to Tripoli and a small area for some time, but his fall looks inevitable now. The question is when.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:55 am UTC

Gadaffi's son has joined the protestors.
http://presstv.com/detail/166900.html

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:48 pm UTC

And now the Libyan envoy to the UN has followed suit.

For those who can't follow the link:
The entire Libyan mission to the UN in Geneva has quit, reports AP. Its second secretary asked the human rights council – discussing the possible suspension of his country for Gaddafi's war on its citizens – to stand for a moment of silence to "honour this revolution".

Council members gave him a standing ovation for what they called an act of courage. Most of Libya's delegation at the UN in New York abandoned the regime and called on Gaddafi to step down on Monday.

Libya's ambassadors to France and Unesco, the UN's Paris-based educational, scientific and cultural organisation, have also quit and condemned the violence.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Diadem » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:Gadaffi's son has joined the protestors.
http://presstv.com/detail/166900.html

I made the mistake of reading the comments on that article.

Suddenly, I feel myself hoping these revolutions will lead to global nuclear war.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Роберт » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

Wow, this one is pretty bad. From the linked article:
At least 1,000 people have been killed in Tripoli by airstrikes conducted by the Libyan military in a desperate move meant to quell the popular uprising, according to some reports.

Meanwhile, a total of 130 Libyan soldiers have been executed for refusing to open fire on protesters.

:shock:

It seems the protests are working, but ****! What is wrong with that guy? Doesn't he know when to give up?
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Wow, this one is pretty bad. From the linked article:
At least 1,000 people have been killed in Tripoli by airstrikes conducted by the Libyan military in a desperate move meant to quell the popular uprising, according to some reports.

Meanwhile, a total of 130 Libyan soldiers have been executed for refusing to open fire on protesters.

:shock:

It seems the protests are working, but ****! What is wrong with that guy? Doesn't he know when to give up?

At this point, he probably sees giving up as certain death, so this ends up being basically the "Last Stand" type of scenario.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:40 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Роберт wrote:Wow, this one is pretty bad. From the linked article:
At least 1,000 people have been killed in Tripoli by airstrikes conducted by the Libyan military in a desperate move meant to quell the popular uprising, according to some reports.

Meanwhile, a total of 130 Libyan soldiers have been executed for refusing to open fire on protesters.

:shock:

It seems the protests are working, but ****! What is wrong with that guy? Doesn't he know when to give up?

At this point, he probably sees giving up as certain death, so this ends up being basically the "Last Stand" type of scenario.


Well, after all the people that have died as a result of Gaddafi's attempt to suppress this revolution, it's very reasonable to think he will die by assassination, after a war crimes trial, or during a battle.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby cybermutiny » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:41 am UTC

If that's true that he's ordering air strikes against his own people than this would be reminiscent of Hitler's last days, when he ordered the army and air force to start destroying Berlin's infrastructure.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Arancaytar » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

The eastern region is now out of the hands of the government, but apparently they have a food shortage with the infrastructure demolished. Instead of sanctioning the fracturing remnants of the regime, perhaps the UN should send some supplies there; with an escort if necessary. If the Egyptian border is as badly guarded as it sounds, it's not like Qaddafi could stop them from doing that.

(Of course, doing that would be a lot more aggressive and interventionist than economic sanctions. But it would be short of attacking Libya's armed forces head-on or enforcing a no-fly-zone, which was also suggested.)
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby diguidum » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:30 am UTC

I would be seriously sad if Gadaffi wasn't beheaded after this war ends.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Arancaytar » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:59 am UTC

And grant his wish for martyrdom? Sticking him in a jail cell for life might be a better punishment.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Aikanaro » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

With my sick mind, he'd be alive, but on life support for the rest of his life. Let it be the slow decay of his legacy.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Diadem » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:18 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:And grant his wish for martyrdom? Sticking him in a jail cell for life might be a better punishment.

A martyr to whom? To be a martyr you have to have followers who believe in you and your cause. Gadaffi won't be a martyr to anyone, he'll just be an evil dictator who got what he deserved.

There's not point to a trial either. There's no question about his identity or guilt. A trial just delays justice, gives him an (albeit remote) chance to make a comeback, and adds a glamour to his death he doesn't deserve. Just take him to a backalley and shoot him, like ceausescu. It's the best possible solution in cases like this.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Game_boy » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:And grant his wish for martyrdom? Sticking him in a jail cell for life might be a better punishment.

A martyr to whom? To be a martyr you have to have followers who believe in you and your cause. Gadaffi won't be a martyr to anyone, he'll just be an evil dictator who got what he deserved.

There's not point to a trial either. There's no question about his identity or guilt. A trial just delays justice, gives him an (albeit remote) chance to make a comeback, and adds a glamour to his death he doesn't deserve. Just take him to a backalley and shoot him, like ceausescu. It's the best possible solution in cases like this.


The point of a trial is to demonstrate rule of law and transparent justice as the foundation of a new government. Not just to actually demonstrate guilt (which is clear already).
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Diadem » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:The point of a trial is to demonstrate rule of law and transparent justice as the foundation of a new government. Not just to actually demonstrate guilt (which is clear already).

A trial in which the outcome is fixed in advance does not demonstrate rule of law. And since the new government most likely wants to distance itself from the former dictator anyway, no matter their intentions, it doesn't tell us anything about how good the new government will be either.

Trials and revolutions are diametrically opposed things. A trial is an action by the government against (a subset of) the people. In a well working country the trial is of course supported by the people, but it's still an action of the government. A revolution is the other way around, it is the an action of the people against the government. The two do not mix well. I mean Gadaffi wrote the laws for 40 years, it wouldn't surprise me if everything that he has done was entirely legal according to Libyan law.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm UTC

Most likely Gaddafi would be tried in The Hague in the International Criminal Court, which was established to try political leaders for crimes against humanity.

What do you mean by "the outcome is fixed"? Fixed as in he would be found guilty no matter what, or fixed as in the evidence against him is so overwhelming that he couldn't possibly be found innocent? If the former, that's not really a trial except in the sense of a ritual taking place in a court. If the latter though, um, what? I get what you're saying about the rule of law not being good if the laws aren't good, but it's pretty dangerous to say we should execute people without trial if we're sure they're guilty. Mistakes happen. I mean, that's not likely in this case, but mistakes happen. It's not impossible that Gadaffi isn't responsible for the violence against his people.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:42 pm UTC

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... revoked-uk
Gaddafi and his family will receive no diplomatic immunities in the UK.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby MisterCheif » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:38 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Gadaffi's son has joined the protestors.
http://presstv.com/detail/166900.html

I made the mistake of reading the comments on that article.

Suddenly, I feel myself hoping these revolutions will lead to global nuclear war.


Those comments made me lose almost all faith in humanity.

Though, of course, there are plenty of other things that make me lose faith in humanity, such as how ignorant the majority of people my age are...
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Babam » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:08 pm UTC

Not a single mention of how Anon OPs is helping organize protesters.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:48 pm UTC

Babam wrote:Not a single mention of how Anon OPs is helping organize protesters.
For shame xkcd, FOR SHAME.

credit I give anon for unrest << credit I give libyan protestors for actually protesting.

Libyan protestors just happens to be a partial subset of both Anon and Libya. If anon needed a reach around, it can go to /d/ to get it.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... 2415942002
Libyan revolutionaries in Benghazi claim to have rescued seven prisoners that had been buried alive.

They say the group was found entombed in a small underground cell in the city's dreaded government compound - forbidden territory for 40 years, now overrun by the forces of revolution.

The rescuers said they heard voices underground and dug through earth and freshly laid concrete to discover the seven men, some of whom were barely alive.

Sky News was taken to the small underground chamber lined with breeze blocks and topped with new cement. There seems to have been no way in or out.


Soldier kills security battalion commander!
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=2930
One of the solders stepped forwards and rendered him dead with a bullet to the head. The soldier then said: It’s better that you die rather than the victims be tens of youth.


update: Gaddafi thinks all his people love him. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12603259

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby iChef » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:00 am UTC

After hearing the latest interview with Gaddafi I am enraged. Enraged at Osama Bin Laden and Al Queada. It seems they snuck into Libya and tried to corrupt the youth by giving them milk and coffee with drugs. I am from the United States, what the hell Osama. I thought you wanted to corrupt Americans, I thought you hated us the most. I am feeling very betrayed. I was 18 at the time of 9/11. When you went after us I didn't get any coffee OR drugs. In fact I had to pay for my coffee AND my drugs. I am very disappointed.
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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:36 pm UTC

iChef wrote:When you went after us I didn't get any coffee OR drugs. In fact I had to pay for my coffee AND my drugs. I am very disappointed.

And thus we confirm that Americans are cheap bastards.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 pm UTC

Aid crisis on Libya's west border

Spoiler:
The BBC's Jim Muir: "There are thousands upon thousands of people waiting desperately to cross that border"

The situation on Libya's border with Tunisia has reached crisis point, as tens of thousands of foreigners flee unrest in the country, the UN says.

Aid staff are battling to cope with an exodus that has seen some 140,000 people crossing into Tunisia and Egypt.

The UN has suspended Libya from its Human Rights Council and has called for a mass humanitarian evacuation.

Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi has played down protests and is trying to regain control of areas in the west.

He is facing a massive challenge to his 41-year rule, with protesters in control of towns in eastern Libya.

Witnesses said pro-Gaddafi forces tried to retake the western cities of Zawiya, Misrata and Nalut on Monday but were repulsed by rebels helped by defecting army units.

There are fears in Zawiya that the city may be attacked from the air, but the rebels remained defiant.

"We're not here for power, authority or money," they said in a message aimed at Col Gaddafi.

"We are here for the cause of freedom and the price we are willing to pay is with our own blood. It's victory or death."

Protesters holding Nalut and the town of Zintan, 145km (70 miles) south-west of Tripoli, both reported the approach of Gaddafi forces and said they feared fresh attacks.

'Deep stress'
In voting to suspend Libya from the UN Human Rights Council, the resolution - passed by consensus by the UN membership - accused Libya of committing gross and systematic violations of human rights.

General Secretary Ban Ki-moon said: "These UN actions send a strong and important message - a message of great consequence within the region and beyond - that there is no impunity, that those who commit crimes against humanity will be punished, that fundamental principles of justice and accountability shall prevail."

The BBC's Barbara Plett at the UN says this resolution seals Col Gaddafi's isolation as it is the body that represents all member states - the one where Libya might have expected to have some support and it has none.

The UN says the situation on the Tunisian-Libyan border has reached "crisis point"

The UN High Commissioner for Refugees said an estimated 40,000 people, mostly Egyptians, were still waiting at the border trying to cross from Libya into Tunisia.

It said it was urgently appealing, along with the International Organisation for Migration, for governments to engage in "a massive humanitarian evacuation of tens of thousands of Egyptians and other third country nationals".

World Food Programme executive director Josette Sheeran told the BBC food was being brought in by road and air, and bought locally, but supplies were under "deep stress".

"This will be a very pressured situation for some time - that's why we have launched an emergency appeal for funds to back up the system here," she said.

Tented transit camps are being set up hurriedly on the Tunisian side, while frantic efforts are being made to charter aircraft and ships to repatriate the stranded.

In other developments:

The European Union is calling an extraordinary summit for 11 March to discuss the situation in Libya and unrest in other parts of North Africa and the Middle East
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in testimony to the US House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee, urged lawmakers not to cut funds on dealing with overseas crises. She said Libya "could become a peaceful democracy or it could face protracted civil war"
The Red Cross is requesting access to western Libya, amid unconfirmed reports of attacks on doctors and summary killings of patients
'No morals'
Col Gaddafi gave an interview in the capital Tripoli for BBC Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen, US TV network ABC and the UK's Sunday Times newspaper.

Col Gaddafi accused Western countries of abandoning Libya and said that they had no morals and wanted to colonise the country.
Image

When asked whether he would resign, he said he could not step down as he did not have an official position - and insisted that the power in the country was with the people.

Col Gaddafi challenged those, including UK Prime Minister David Cameron, who have accused him of having money abroad, to produce evidence. He said he would "put two fingers in their eye".

Col Gaddafi said true Libyans had not demonstrated but those who had come on to the streets were under the influence of drugs supplied by Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.

But in response to the interview, the US ambassador to the UN Susan Rice said the fact he was laughing at questions while "slaughtering his own people" showed that he was disconnected from reality.

Col Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, on Tuesday condemned Ms Rice's comments and added that Mr Cameron's handling of the situation was "like a joke".

Mr Cameron has frozen Gaddafi assets and called for the Libyan leader to go.

Saif Gaddafi told Sky News that the east had not fallen and he denied that the people there wanted his father out, saying it was just local difficulties.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby zombie_monkey » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:00 pm UTC

Belarus shipped weapons to Libya just before the embaro was imposed: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/01/libya-received-belarus-military-shipment

Two days ago they violated the Ivory Coast weapons embargo: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12595145

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:02 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12617774
A fuel tanker fell on its side and exploded.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... d-gas.html
The SAS is ready to take Gaddafi's mustard gas stores.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... byan-money
People are trying to run with money. 100 million pounds in libyan dinars.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 66727.html
The United States and France have brushed aside Venezuela's proposal for mediation to end the violence in Libya.

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby The Reaper » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0304/libya.html
At least 30 civilians have been killed by pro-Gadaffi forces after an attack on Zawiyah.

The Libyan army staged a prolonged artillery barrage on the city of Zawiyah, west of Tripoli.

A rebel spokesman said there had been heavy shelling of Zawiyah by Gaddafi's forces and reports of many casualties.

Earlier, shots were fired across a district of the Libyan capital as forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi tried to break up a crowd of protestors.

The demonstrators spilled out of the Murat Adha mosque in the Tajoura district of eastern Tripoli after Friday prayers.

Several hundred of them began chanting for an end to Gaddafi's 40 years in power, shouting 'Gaddafi is the enemy of God!'.

A few minutes later, pro-Gaddafi security forces arrived at the scene of the protest.

'They fired tear gas. I heard shooting. People are scattering,' said a Reuters reporter.

Another reporter on the edge of the Tajoura district said heavy shooting could be heard and a convoy of 14 Toyota sports utility vehicles, with security forces on board, sped through a checkpoint towards the site of the protest.

Earlier, rebels in eastern Libya said they would not negotiate unless Muammar Gaddafi stood down and went into exile.

The National Libyan Council in the city of Benghazi, which is controlled by the opposition, also called again for foreign intervention to stop government air raids.

Stronghold in capital

Tripoli is Gaddafi's principal stronghold after large swathes of the country rejected his rule.

The authorities have tried to portray the capital as a city going about its life as normal, but today's protest punctured that image.

'This is the end for Gaddafi. It's over. Forty years of crimes are over,' said Faragha Salim, an engineer at the protest in Tajoura.

A revolt against Gaddafi's four-decade rule has left the eastern side of the country, and several towns elsewhere, in rebel control.

Authorities have tried to prevent foreign media from reporting independently on the protests in Tripoli.

In some cases security guards have attempted to block journalists from travelling to neighbourhoods in the capital where anti-Gaddafi protests are anticipated.

A Libyan government spokesman said journalists' movements were being restricted because their presence could trigger violence from what he described as affiliates of al-Qaeda.

'These are exceptional circumstances. I know you're going to talk about it and twist it the way you want,' said the spokesman, Mussa Ibrahim.

'We are preparing to pay this price of preventing you guys from reporting to avoid turning Tripoli into Baghdad.'

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Re: Protests: Libya's turn

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:04 pm UTC

Looks like Gadaffi is now using tanks against the protesters.

From Al Jazeera:
Anti-government fighters in the western Libyan town of Az Zawiyah have pushed back forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan president, following a fierce assault on the town.

Gaddafi's forces on Saturday encircled Az Zawiyah, which lies just 50km west of the capital Tripoli, manning checkpoints about 3km from the centre, according to reports.

Fighters in the town said a another counter-attack could come soon.

"There is news that the Gaddafi security forces are gathering at the outside of the city and we are bracing ourselves for another attack," Hamdi, a doctor inside Az Zawiya, told Al Jazeera.

More than 30 people were killed and as many as 200 people were said to have been wounded in the fighting that drove government forces out of the town.

Youssef Shagan, a spokesman for the fighters in the town, said that Gaddafi's forces had entered Az Zawiyah at 6am (04:00 GMT) with hundreds of soldier, along with tanks and armoured vehicles.

Gaddafi's forces had broken through defences into Martyrs' Square, in the heart of the town, but hours later were pushed back.


A Dutch source mentioned at least 20 tanks, but I haven't found that figure anywhere else. Either way it's clearly now a full out civil war. Those 'protestors' must be packing some serious firepower themselves if they are able to defeat that kind of assault.

Perhaps time to update the thread title?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby The Reaper » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Updated.

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels ... hers-20586
In east Libya, African hunt began as towns and cities began fall under the control of Libyan rebels, mobs and gangs. They started to detain, insult, rape and even executing black immigrants, students and refugees.
I guess someone should tell them that not all black people are mercs.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

Well, this couldn't get much worse.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby The Reaper » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/hrw-no ... rn-libya-0
Human Rights Watch says it has seen no evidence of mercenaries being used in eastern Libya. This contradicts widespread earlier reports in the international media that African soldiers had been flown in to fight rebels in the region as Muammar Gaddafi sought to keep control.

In an interview with Radio Netherlands Worldwide in Libya, Peter Bouckaert from Human Rights Watch said he had conducted research and found no proof of mercenaries being used. Investigator Bouckaert, who has been in the region for two weeks, told RNW that he had been to Al Bayda after receiving reports that 156 mercenaries had been arrested there.

Black Libyans
The town is to the east of the city Benghazi and is also in the hands of the anti-Gaddafi protesters.
The rights investigator said that what he found there were, in fact, 156 soldiers from the south of Libya and not from another African country. After talking to them he found out that they were all black Libyans of African descent. The soldiers have since been released by the protesters.

According to Bouckaert, the support of the black southern Libyans for the Gaddafi regime is explicable as Gaddafi fought to counter discrimination against this group in Libyan society.

In the west
RNW's Mohammed Abdulrahman, who interviewed Bouckaert in Benghazi, says that the fact that there are few economic opportunities in the south also leads to southern Libyans joining the army.

HRW has so far only conducted research in the east of the country which is under the control of the protesters, but it says it could well be the case that reports of mercenaries being used in the areas still under government control in the west are also inaccurate.

Unverified
International media report that the mercenaries are gathering in the central southern town of Sabha, known to be loyal to Gaddafi, and are being sent out from there.

Our reporter says the southern location of the town means it is possible that the soldiers here are also from the south of the country and not African mercenaries as claimed in the international media. As the area is under control of Gaddafi's forces this cannot be verified.


Republic of Libya
http://alive.in/libya/2011/03/05/a-tran ... -in-libya/
http://www.libya-alyoum.com/news/index. ... extid=2554
Declaration of the Establishment of the National Transitional Temporary Council

In affirmation of the sovereignty of the Libyan people over the entirety of their territory, land, sea, and air; and in response to the demands of the Libyan people, towards the realization of the free will with which they shaped the uprising of February 17th; and in preservation of the Libyan people’s national unity; we resolve to establish a national council named ‘the National Transitional Temporary Council’ to be the only legitimate representative of the Libyan people.

Article 1

Functions

1. To ensure the safety and peace of citizens and the national territory

2. To coordinate national efforts to liberate the remaining quarters of the nation

3. To coordinate the efforts of local councils working towards the return of civic life

4. To supervise the military council so as to ensure the realization of a new doctrine for the national army towards the defense of the Libyan people and protection of its borders

5. To supervise the election of a founding assembly charged with developing a new constitution for the country to be submitted to public referendum, so that the legitimacy of the constitution is founded on: the will of the people, the triumphant uprising of February 17th, respect for human rights, guarantee of civil liberties, separation of powers, an independent judiciary and the establishment of national institutions that provide for broad and pluralistic participation, the peaceful transition of authority and the right of representation for every segment of Libyan society

6. To form a transitional government to pave the way for free elections

7. To conduct and to steer foreign policy, to organize relations with foreign nations and international and regional organizations, and to represent the Libyan people before them

Article 2

The Council’s Organizational Structure

1. The Council is composed of 30 members, representing all of Libya’s regions and all segments of Libyan society, with youth membership representing no less than 5 members.

2. The Council will select from its members a president, an official spokesperson and coordinators for a variety of domestic and foreign functions.

Article 3

Seat of the Council

The Council’s permanent seat is at the capital, Tripoli, taking Benghazi as its temporary seat until the capital is liberated.

Article 4

It is the responsibility of the Council to set protocols for its regular and emergency meetings and to make decisions in accordance with the interests of the Libyan people, in a manner that does not contradict the people’s demands, the basis of which were declared by the uprising of February 17th: the fall of the Gaddafi regime and the establishment of a civil, constitutional and democratic state.

Article 5

Based on agreement of municipal councils across various liberated areas, the Council selects Mr. Mustafa Abdul Jaleel as the President of the National Transitional Temporary Council and Mr. Abdul Hafid Abdul Qader Ghoga as his Deputy and the Official Spokesperson for the Council.

Long Live a Free and United Libya

Glory to the Martyrs of the February 17th Uprising

Liberated Libya March 2, 2011

February 17th Revolutionaries

(stamped by the Coalition of February 17th)

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby The Reaper » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:04 pm UTC

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 35,00.html
Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has proposed to give up power and leave Libya if the saftey of his family and him are guaranteed, the London-based Asharq Alawsat Newspaper reported. Also according to the report, Gaddafi demanded to be allowed to leave for any country he chooses, without future prosecution.

The opposition's Benghazi-based national council did not comment, but the newspaper asserted that the council's general policy is to reject negotiations with Gaddafi, no matter what. (Roee Nahmias)


Obama asks Saudis to airlift weapons into Benghazi
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 34227.html

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby emceng » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

The Independent is a reputable journal, right? I am questioning this part of the story:

although King Abdullah personally loathes the Libyan leader, who tried to assassinate him just over a year ago.


Maybe my google skills are failing, but I can find absolutely nothing on this. I see nothing on either's wikipedia page, and no results on a variety of search terms.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dream » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

I'm loath to approve of arms trafficking of any kind, though in this case the protesters/rebels have been dropped right in it and obviously need help. However, this could be a good thing or a bad thing. If Obama is honestly trying to avoid undue influence on an internal Libyan matter, that's quite encouraging. It's a great deal better than sending "advisers" to take over the war, like in Vietnam or Afghanistan. On the other hand, if this is an Iran-Contra kind of thing, with some other politics, perhaps to do with Saudi's own dissent movement, involved, this could be very bad. It could end up like the Marsh Arabs after the Gulf War if support leads to bold moves on the part of the rebels, and that support suddenly becomes politically difficult at a bad time.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:11 pm UTC

emceng wrote:The Independent is a reputable journal, right? I am questioning this part of the story:

although King Abdullah personally loathes the Libyan leader, who tried to assassinate him just over a year ago.


Maybe my google skills are failing, but I can find absolutely nothing on this. I see nothing on either's wikipedia page, and no results on a variety of search terms.


I had to use Dogpile to get this:

(Note, have to search for Abdullah II. Abdullah I was successfully assassinated in 1951)

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050809/2005080913.html
King Abdullah pardons Libyans involved in assassination attempt
Saudi Arabia-Libya, Politics, 8/9/2005

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz issued a pardon to Libyans who were accused of an assassination attempt of King Abdullah in 2003, when he was a crown prince.

King Abdullah has assumed his rule most recently in succession of the late King Fahd.

At that time of the alleged assassination attempt, the government detained 13 persons, Saudis and Libyans, over a failed assassination attempt which resulted in worsening Saudi relations with Libya, and the Saudi government expelled Libya's ambassador, nine months ago.

The Saudi accusations also pushed Washington to investigate Libya on its role over the assassination attempt, saying that there are doubts that Libya is still supporting terrorism movements, and this issue might obstruct the efforts to remove Libya's name from the US list of countries supporting terrorism.

For its part, Libya accused Saudi Arabia of being behind a Libyan conference of political opposition groups which was held in London one and a half months ago, which called on the Libyan leader Mu'ammar al-Qathafi to resign.


Maybe the dates can help someone else narrow it down.

Although apparently Abdullah II was an extra on Star Trek Voyager... but Wikipedia doestn' have anything on any 2003 assassination attempt (that I saw).
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Diadem » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

King Abdullah II of Jordan != King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia

Abdullah II of Jordan is, as far as I can tell, a pretty cool guy. Very pro-Western, quite popular in his own country, honestly interested in a lasting peace with Israel.

Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is, as far as I can tell, a corrupt and repressive dictator, leading a royal house with over 2000 princes, that has complety wrecked the country, and is hanging on by a combination of repression and US support.
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