Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens Flee

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Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens Flee

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02 ... -escalate/


Spoiler:
Shelly Moore, 37, has taught English and drama at Ellsworth High School, in a rural patch of northwest Wisconsin, for 13 years. Her base salary is $49,000. She's unmarried and without kids, so in addition to her regular classes, she teaches AP literature, directs a fall musical and a spring play, and coaches the school speech team. Those extra duties – along with the fact that she's nationally board certified—bumps her total compensation to about $56,000. Like others in Wisconsin and around the country, her district is beset by budget issues. Shortfalls finally forced the layoffs of 24 of the school's 150 teachers earlier this year. On Jan. 5, she learned she would be one of them.
Moore is one of many thousands of public workers in Wisconsin with a vested interest in the mushrooming debate about a measure that would strip most of their collective-bargaining rights. The dispute over Governor Walker's “budget-repair” bill has escalated sharply. After Republican-controlled state legislature teed up a Thursday vote, Democrats forestalled the bill's certain passage by ditching work to deny the GOP a quorum. When the Senate convened this morning at the state capitol building in Madison, only Republicans were present. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, a passel of Democrats has fled the state; police have been dispatched to corral the absentees and return them to the floor. One Republican called it an attempt to “shut down democracy.”
Thousands of protesters, who have camped out in the capitol rotunda and stormed the halls since Tuesday, are witness to a frenzied scene. Schools are again closed – in Madison, the epicenter of the fracas, but also in some other state districts as well. Sign-toting public workers are decrying Walker's bill, which would take away negotiating rights on issues ranging from benefits to working conditions, tie salaries to the Consumer Price Index and force significant mandatory increases in public-employee pension and health-care contributions. Yesterday, President Obama called the bill an “assault on unions.” National Education Association President Dennis Van Roekel, whose group represents nearly 100,000 Wisconsin teachers, says that state workers are being scapegoated by a governor hostile to unions. “It's a politically motivated attack,” he tells TIME. “It's not about money and it's not about a budget fix. It's an attack on unions. [The bill's supporters] want to silence their voice.”
Whether or not that's true, it's also about money. Wisconsin has a $137 million shortfall for the fiscal year ending June 30, and a projected $3.6 billion deficit over the ensuing two years. Walker says his measure would save $30 million in the short term, and 10 times that other the next two years. The bill, which covers almost all state and local public workers – cops, firefighters and state troopers are exempted -- would allow the state to sidestep some 6,000 layoffs, according to Walker. The governor, elected in November, offers a simple explanation for the bill's necessity: "We're broke."
One of the ironies of the protests is where they're happening. In 1959, Wisconsin was the first state to give public workers comprehensive collective-bargaining rights, and the governor's bid to take most of them away has given rise to debates and demonstrations across the state. After work Wednesday, Moore traveled to the closest university, in Little Falls, where a hastily called meeting drew some 600 people. She says she's amenable to sacrificing some of the benefits that make up for teachers' comparatively lower salaries. What galls her is the notion that union employees are underworked, overcoddled and resistant to doing their part. “We recognize the state is in crisis,” she says. Her union has agreed to pay freezes, even as salaries skyrocketed across the state during flush times, and during the last two-year collective-bargaining cycle she took a small salary reduction (less than 1%). “We may not be well compensated but we've traded benefits for compensation,” she says. “We're supposed to be leaders in our community, but our only way to have a voice is through collective bargaining. Now that's being taken away too.” Teachers, she says, are being told, “We don't respect you, we don't want your voice at the table.”
Some Republicans have expressed concerns about the measure, but none have indicated they will vote against it. The GOP has a 19-14 edge in the chamber, giving it a two-vote margin. While the Democratic boycott has infused the scene at the capitol with carnival overtones, the debate foreshadows a cascading series of discussions across the country, as GOP governors ushered into office with a mandate to mend broken deficits begin the painful blood-letting. Ohio will soon be voting on a similar measure, and other states will follow. What's happening in Wisconsin will set the tone—which is one reason why both sides appear to be digging in their heels.


Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02 ... z1EFlRcnTe

I didn't realize that Senators of many states can just avoid voting and cause a shutdown on legislation. Along with that I didn't know they could be required to vote and that the police would have to go out searching for them. I have to question a little bit whether hold outs like that are anti-democratic or not.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

Maddow talks about the anti-union bill in Wisconsin.

I think it's pretty cool that they're denying quorum, seeing as how the republicans are refusing to negotiate.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

And quite frankly, denying collective bargaining rights is denying democracy to the people. Maybe if the Republicans weren't so keen in engaging in class warfare for the benefit of the rich I would care a little bit more about the Dems fleeing the state on behalf of the people.

And I love how the people have to make all the sacrifices while the rich who caused the economic crises are all up in a tissle about how they can't possible pay any little bit in taxes. How about they sacrifice their sweet million dollar bonuses so that we can have adequate teachers and firefighters?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:44 pm UTC

Teachers and firefighters are only there for the poor people. The rich can afford tutors and servants to put out fires.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby BlackSails » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

This is beyond ridiculous. If republicans were doing this, people here would be crucifying them for "being obstructionist"

They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Griffin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:46 pm UTC

Whats really amusing is that during the public hearing the other day, the republicans left with the vast majority of the registered speakers yet to speak, while the democrats not only listened to all the registered speakers, but stayed up over 24 hours to listen to the concerns of those still gathered outside as well.

Blacksail - there's a difference between making a stand on a single issue and adopting obstructionism as a policy. People LOVE real principled obstructionist actions like the classic filibuster. They just hate obstructionist "block everything no matter what with absolutely no effort by abusing the rules" all-encompassing policy.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:50 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:This is beyond ridiculous. If republicans were doing this, people here would be crucifying them for "being obstructionist"

They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.

Well if the Republicans had as good a reason as not throwing the entirety of government workers under the bus as part of the Republican war on the people then I'd support them too. Sadly, they don't. So they should continue to do their damn jobs and not let the Republicans get away with their attack on the people to favor the rich.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:And quite frankly, denying collective bargaining rights is denying democracy to the people.

What? No. Denying rights to people is just that, denying rights to people. Unless they are denying people who collectively bargain the right to vote, they aren't denying democracy to anyone. For that matter if the electorate democratically voted away collective bargaining, it would be pretty hard to say that democracy isn't happening.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:And quite frankly, denying collective bargaining rights is denying democracy to the people.

What? No. Denying rights to people is just that, denying rights to people. Unless they are denying people who collectively bargain the right to vote, they aren't denying democracy to anyone. For that matter if the electorate democratically voted away collective bargaining, it would be pretty hard to say that democracy isn't happening.

I would very much say that denying people the ability to join together to protect their economic interests is denying their ability to have a democratic voice in their employment. And, fallacious rhetoric used to sway an ignorant mass to an attack on a minority is not democracy, it's an attack on the people in service of the rich.

Is it democratic to destroy the well-being of others in service of keeping the rich rich? After all, where's the tax increase to have the rich help with their share? They're already claiming that those overpaid public employees who make less by comparison than those in the private sector need to put in their fair share of the sacrifice.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Diadem » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

I'm mighty confused about the police being dispatched to return senators to the floor. It's pretty essential for democracy that senators can not be forced in any way to vote one way or another. A law requiring senators to be present violates that basic political freedom.

Also, what idiot set the quorum higher than the required minimum number of votes for passing a bill? That's asking for sabotage like this. I guess it was the same idiot who wrote the federal filibister rules. "No, you can't vote this down, but you can vote against it being voted on". Stupid.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:24 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:I would very much say that denying people the ability to join together to protect their economic interests is denying their ability to have a democratic voice in their employment.
They aren't denying their ability to band together, the state is just going to refuse to collectively bargain, which is within the rights of any other employer. For that matter the vast majority of the US workers don't have any democratic say in their employment and why should they? Democratic employment tends to not be very successful, employees almost always end up paying themselves too much(this can also, ironically, be seen by corporate executives, who in fact do have some democratic employment by being large stock holders in their corporations, who then pay themselves more than they otherwise could).
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby omgryebread » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:I would very much say that denying people the ability to join together to protect their economic interests is denying their ability to have a democratic voice in their employment.
Since when do people have a democratic voice in employment? Businesses are controlled by owners, not employees. In this case, the people of Wisconsin own the schools, and are represented in this by their Senate. Who should do their jobs.

That being said, it's nice to see that Republicans are engaged in the noble pursuit of making teaching an even worse job, so we scare away even more competent potential teaching students. The US has managed to get all the way down to 30th place on math, but we're still better than Norway in sciences, that's unacceptable. Bottom of the OECD or bust.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:why should they?

More importantly, why shouldn't they?

As for the latter half, that's not entirely true as there have been successful employee run businesses. Otherwise, there'd never be such a thing as a Co-op. They just don't tend to be trillion dollar mega-corporations.

Denying the right to bargain collectively is denying the point of banding together. I mean, it only benefits the employer to be able to pit employees against each other at the bargaining table, denying employees agency at any rate.

Since when do people have a democratic voice in employment? Businesses are controlled by owners, not employees.

Since when was this the universal law of how things have to be? Or, is the feudal structure just something you're highly enamored with?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby omgryebread » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:50 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Since when was this the universal law of how things have to be? Or, is the feudal structure just something you're highly enamored with?
It doesn't have to be, of course. You are right, though, I am highly enamored with capitalism. You're wrong in that it's feudalism though, it's not the same at all. But yeah, you said yourself the trillion dollar mega-corporations are not the employee-owned ones, so I think that's a decent example that capitalism works well.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Vaniver » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:57 pm UTC

Given that teachers unions are some of the most evil political groups in this country, I cannot but see this as a good thing. (I am not a fan when people sacrifice children's futures to line their pockets. And, as Jessica pointed out, only the rich can escape.)
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:00 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Denying the right to bargain collectively is denying the point of banding together. I mean, it only benefits the employer to be able to pit employees against each other at the bargaining table, denying employees agency at any rate.
If it were any employer other than the state refusing to collectively bargain, we wouldn't be calling it anti-democratic, just a company refusing to bargain with unions. Collectively bargaining involves both sides voluntarily participating. The state is just refusing to volunteer, thats not anti-democratic.

Often in high skill positions it actually does benefit the employees to be pitted against each other, when differences in skill magnify to large differences in the added value occupation. An obvious example of this is professional athletics, where being a world class athlete will net you millions of fans and hence large amounts of money, but being average will leave you completely unemployed. This holds true for a lot of creative work as well, like Novelists and recording artists, and things like stock traders and (sometimes)programmers. On the other hand something like "lever-cranker" on an assembly line is easily replaceable and pitting employees against each other lowers their pay and benefits.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Telchar » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Often in high skill positions it actually does benefit the employees to be pitted against each other, when differences in skill magnify to large differences in the added value occupation. An obvious example of this is professional athletics, where being a world class athlete will net you millions of fans and hence large amounts of money, but being average will leave you completely unemployed. This holds true for a lot of creative work as well, like Novelists and recording artists, and things like stock traders and (sometimes)programmers. On the other hand something like "lever-cranker" on an assembly line is easily replaceable and pitting employees against each other lowers their pay and benefits.


You do realize the proffesional athletes AND writers have unions...right?
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby folkhero » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:19 pm UTC

If contractors were colluding to drive up construction costs for schools, I don't think anyone would be mad at Wisconsin for choosing to only only use contractors who weren't part of the collusion. Why is there such a big difference between construction and teaching? As Vaniver pointed out, teachers union are only look out for the teachers' best interests, often at the expense of students.

Some people seem to have the idea that the state need only raise taxes on the rich to make up any deficit, a view that doesn't quite match up with reality. The more Wisconsin raises taxes, the more people will vote with their feet and move to places like Texas or Florida. If you tax the richest, who are generally the most productive, then you will see a brain and productivity drain, businesses will move elsewhere, jobs will dry up and the economy is in even worse shape than before.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:23 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
Dark567 wrote:Often in high skill positions it actually does benefit the employees to be pitted against each other, when differences in skill magnify to large differences in the added value occupation. An obvious example of this is professional athletics, where being a world class athlete will net you millions of fans and hence large amounts of money, but being average will leave you completely unemployed. This holds true for a lot of creative work as well, like Novelists and recording artists, and things like stock traders and (sometimes)programmers. On the other hand something like "lever-cranker" on an assembly line is easily replaceable and pitting employees against each other lowers their pay and benefits.


You do realize the proffesional athletes AND writers have unions...right?
Well I did for athletes. That doesn't change the face that often it would often be in many employees interests to be pitted against each other. The union in this case is helping the just drafted rookie, but hurting the Tom Brady's. The fact that they have unions doesn't prove my high value employee example wrong. And novelists have unions? That would be news to me. Looking it up there is an authors union, but it doesn't look like they engage in any collective bargaining, so its probably irrelevant.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Xerillum » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:05 am UTC

A lot of high school students from around the Madison area, including most of the people I know, have joined in the protests for the past 3 days. The problem with removing collective bargaining from the unions is that if there is a dispute, the options are limited, and a strike is likely. A strike of state workers would cause huge problems. Also, teachers are getting paid terribly now, for the huge benefit they cause for society. Maybe Walker doesn't realize that because his highest formal education was high school...

The worst thing to happen wouldn't be with teacher's unions, it would be with every other state/city worker in Wisconsin, as well as people working for the university, which is probably the biggest employer in the area.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:14 am UTC

Xerillum wrote: Also, teachers are getting paid terribly now...
According to the article the teacher was getting paid around $56,000 dollars a year. That's hardly terrible. I believe the average in Wisconsin is at about $45,000. Neither sounds particularly unfair, in particular if the teachers in question are only 9-10 month teachers.

As for Walkers education, he did attend college, he just didn't graduate. Your ad hominem is irrelevant to the course of action here.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:44 am UTC

folkhero wrote:If you tax the richest, who are generally the most productive, then you will see a brain and productivity drain, businesses will move elsewhere, jobs will dry up and the economy is in even worse shape than before.


I fucking hate this sentiment. If you're rich, why are you automatically more productive?

Vaniver wrote:Given that teachers unions are some of the most evil political groups in this country, I cannot but see this as a good thing. (I am not a fan when people sacrifice children's futures to line their pockets. And, as Jessica pointed out, only the rich can escape.)


Teachers unions aren't evil, though they're certainly a bugaboo of conservatives. Like most unions they're run by small minded, frightened people who fear for their jobs.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:52 am UTC

Garm wrote:
folkhero wrote:If you tax the richest, who are generally the most productive, then you will see a brain and productivity drain, businesses will move elsewhere, jobs will dry up and the economy is in even worse shape than before.


I fucking hate this sentiment. If you're rich, why are you automatically more productive?
Not automatically, but generally the reason why people earn higher incomes is because they have higher production than those that earn lower incomes.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:53 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:
folkhero wrote:If you tax the richest, who are generally the most productive, then you will see a brain and productivity drain, businesses will move elsewhere, jobs will dry up and the economy is in even worse shape than before.


I fucking hate this sentiment. If you're rich, why are you automatically more productive?
Not automatically, but generally the reason why people earn higher incomes is because they have higher production than those that earn lower incomes.


I'm going to need a source on this one. Also, define "productive".
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby buddy431 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:08 am UTC

BlackSails wrote: They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.


This. Democracy means majority rules. Yeah, we have that pesky Bill of Rights to protect some individual freedoms against the tyranny of the majority, but last time I checked, the right to bargain collectively wasn't enshrined in either the U.S. or Wisconsin constitutions. And even if it was, it'd be up to the courts to put the kebash on the law, not the legislature.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:10 am UTC

BlackSails wrote: They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.


they're not doing this because they know that they'll lose. That said, I don't think that this is an appropriate reaction.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Wodashin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:32 am UTC

The people voted all those Republicans in, ergo the people agree with the Republicans for the most part in Wisconsin. Case closed. This isn't unconstitutional, so it's perfectly fit to happen. They're literally just prolonging the inevitable. Wisconsin can do whatever Wisconsin damn well pleases, and if the Democrats are vastly outnumbered there, then they're not fit to be making the rules in the state. Mainly because they can't.

It's one state. Let them do what they want. If it crashes and burns, so be it. Other states will learn from their mistake or their triumph. Well, probably. That didn't happen when Massachusetts' health care bombed and we still voted a bill in nationally. State rights should be more important on this subject, and if states want to experiment, let them. If one state wants to do something on one political end and another on the other, let's see the results. Sounds like a good plan, personally.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:34 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm mighty confused about the police being dispatched to return senators to the floor. It's pretty essential for democracy that senators can not be forced in any way to vote one way or another. A law requiring senators to be present violates that basic political freedom.

It's called a call of the house, and it's a parliamentary rule. If a quorum is not present, those members of a body present may vote to compel the remaining members to attend. Since legislatures' actions carry the force of law, when a legislature invokes a call of the house it's enforced by arrest. It's a fairly rare procedure but it's not unheard of at state and federal levels and it features in Mr. Smith goes to Washington (also the source of all most people know (incorrectly) about the filibuster).

Fleeing the state is a clever action. Police from one state have no authority in another except under hot pursuit, which I do not think qualifies if they were already out of state, and interstate extradition is usually at the governor's discretion. This could be very, very interesting news shortly. Already is.

Wodashin wrote:It's one state. Let them do what they want. If it crashes and burns, so be it. Other states will learn from their mistake or their triumph. Well, probably. That didn't happen when Massachusetts' health care bombed and we still voted a bill in nationally.

How do I put this... even Something Awful doesn't have emoticons sufficiently illustrative to express how hard this makes me facepalm.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby BlackSails » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:22 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
BlackSails wrote: They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.


they're not doing this because they know that they'll lose.


Tough luck, thats democracy.

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rath358
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby rath358 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:04 am UTC

Some things about the bill:

-It is being justified as much needed cuts to help the state balance the budget. There has been $140 million of special interest spending by republicans since they took power. The "hole" in the budget that Scott Walker is trying to exist is one created by the republican majority.

-In addition to taking away the collective bargaining rights of teachers, it requires them to cover some of the pension costs and healthcare costs. To many teachers, this is a significant hardship

-The firefighters and police unions were excluded from the cuts. Strangely enough, they supported Walker in the election.


Ugh. Faux News is calling it a "Union Hate Rally". I guess I know where they stand...
I should probably stop. Shouldn't allow myself to post in N&A while furious...

jesseewiak
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby jesseewiak » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:09 am UTC

One, to those who thing teacher unions are "evil" or that teachers aren't underpaid, please go to a classroom and actually watch a teacher deal with students. I realize that as a forum of mostly teenagers to young adults, you've all had one bad experience with some teacher you think is horrible. Yes, the average teacher makes a middle class living. That's because of the union and the GOP (and some Democrat's) would have no problem cutting teachers salaries to give more tax breaks to billionaires.

Second, this isn't a subversion of democracy. This is called using the rules to obtain leverage. The rules state that unless 20 Senator's on the floor, bills that affect money can't be called to the floor. To bad for the GOP, they only have 19 Senator's.

Dark567
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:10 am UTC

rath358 wrote:-It is being justified as much needed cuts to help the state balance the budget. There has been $140 million of special interest spending by republicans since they took power. The "hole" in the budget that Scott Walker is trying to exist is one created by the republican majority.
Thats just a blatant mischaracterization.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/stateme ... egislatur/
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Wodashin
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Wodashin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:10 am UTC

I really see no reason for there to be an uproar on this. If this is what Wisconsin wants, it should be what they get. They voted these people in, let them have the consequences, good or bad.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Glass Fractal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:16 am UTC

rath358 wrote:-In addition to taking away the collective bargaining rights of teachers, it requires them to cover some of the pension costs and healthcare costs. To many teachers, this is a significant hardship

-The firefighters and police unions were excluded from the cuts. Strangely enough, they supported Walker in the election.


Ugh. Faux News is calling it a "Union Hate Rally". I guess I know where they stand...
I should probably stop. Shouldn't allow myself to post in N&A while furious...


Oh that's nothing, in New Jersey the governor is cutting their budgets so the state can "afford" teachers pensions that it hasn't paid into for the last fifteen years (and obviously still refuses to give money for) and giving tax money to private schools.

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rath358
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby rath358 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:24 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
rath358 wrote:-It is being justified as much needed cuts to help the state balance the budget. There has been $140 million of special interest spending by republicans since they took power. The "hole" in the budget that Scott Walker is trying to exist is one created by the republican majority.
Thats just a blatant mischaracterization.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/stateme ... egislatur/

my bad. There is still $140M less in the treasury due to the republicans though.
Can we still conclude that the bill is a Bad Thing that deserves to die in a fire?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:44 am UTC

Glass Fractal wrote:Oh that's nothing, in New Jersey the governor is cutting their budgets so the state can "afford" teachers pensions that it hasn't paid into for the last fifteen years (and obviously still refuses to give money for) and giving tax money to private schools.

Not to mention the billions in federal money he rejected for no apparent reason, choosing to shut down a tunnel project the state had already spent several more times what it would have had to moving forward on, and the state will still have to buy out contracts I think. You want to talk about stealing from the future, guess what, when some poor fool gets saddled with the responsibility of making that project happen all those studies and bidding and all that are going to have to happen all over again.
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++$_
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby ++$_ » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:02 am UTC

For that matter the vast majority of the US workers don't have any democratic say in their employment and why should they? Democratic employment tends to not be very successful, employees almost always end up paying themselves too much(this can also, ironically, be seen by corporate executives, who in fact do have some democratic employment by being large stock holders in their corporations, who then pay themselves more than they otherwise could).
If you don't believe people have the right to form corporations to sell labor, then do you also not believe that people should have the right to form corporations to sell automobiles?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:04 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
BlackSails wrote: They should do their goddamn jobs and go vote against it.


they're not doing this because they know that they'll lose.


Tough luck, thats democracy.


I absolutely agree.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:08 am UTC

++$_ wrote:If you don't believe people have the right to form corporations to sell labor, then do you also not believe that people should have the right to form corporations to sell automobiles?
I never said they don't have the right to, the have every right to, but if the state decides they don't want to buy labor from that corporation, thats their prerogative. The same as any other employer.

And for that matter I have a problem with Monopolist corporations to sell labor, just like I have a problem with monopolistic corporations that sell automobiles.
Last edited by Dark567 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:17 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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mmmcannibalism
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:13 am UTC

++$_ wrote:
For that matter the vast majority of the US workers don't have any democratic say in their employment and why should they? Democratic employment tends to not be very successful, employees almost always end up paying themselves too much(this can also, ironically, be seen by corporate executives, who in fact do have some democratic employment by being large stock holders in their corporations, who then pay themselves more than they otherwise could).
If you don't believe people have the right to form corporations to sell labor, then do you also not believe that people should have the right to form corporations to sell automobiles?


People having the right to say we are selling labor collectively doesn't mean you have to buy from them. Just like I can go buy non corporate chain food if I want a sandwich*.

*I'm talking family diner type thing
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