Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens Flee

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:57 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Actually we learned that he plans on lying to the Democrats in order to bring them back to the state in order to force quorum. I mean... I guess we could say that we knew that he'd do that but he totally explains how:
Yeah, I saw that, and in all honesty we already knew the Dems would ignore it. He's already asked that they be arrested if they come back to the state, so its pretty obvious that if they come back, simply calling a recess wouldn't get them out of a quorum.

Actually the one thing that he does admit on the call that he denied in public, he has had at least one phone call with a Democratic senator.

Edit:
jesseewiak wrote:I'm going to guess the previous poster is looking at tests that actually test the entire school system, not people who self select to take either the ACT or SAT (I know this may shock people on this forum, but everybody doesn't take those tests).


Yeah, except I have seen that fact stated everywhere, and it is usually referencing ACT and SAT scores:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -scores-v/
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby addams » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:34 am UTC

I am very interested in this subject. The police found the telephone call interesting.

http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/index.cfm This links to all the stories.

http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=2516 This links to Chief Noble Wray's statement.

The people of Wisconsin are creating history.

The Governor of Wisconsin is a busy person. The people of his state are questioning everything that he has done in the last month.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/opinio ... ffc25.html

Oh; I read that the bill has passed one of the houses unchanged and is now on its way to the other house.

On the brighter side; The people in Wisconsin had a nice party. This video is fun.

http://vimeo.com/20168864
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:12 am UTC

Here's a list of ten things that aren't really being talked about that Gov. Walker is also trying to do. This really just amounts to a giant "Eff You" to the people of Wisconsin. How did this ideologue get in office (rhetorical question)?

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/25/10-gop-disaster/
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby rath358 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:57 pm UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxCtacdoXE

A video of the bill passing in the assembly. Somehow, only 68 of the 99 representatives got their votes recorded during the twenty seconds (0:55 through about 1:15 inn the video)

Is it just me, or is there something very, very wrong with that?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Arrian » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:21 pm UTC

rath358 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxCtacdoXE

A video of the bill passing in the assembly. Somehow, only 68 of the 99 representatives got their votes recorded during the twenty seconds (0:55 through about 1:15 inn the video)

Is it just me, or is there something very, very wrong with that?


It passed 51-17, the 31 missing wouldn't have made a difference. Closing voting so quickly might have been ugly partisan politics, but it didn't affect the outcome. And I don't know, how long is voting normally open in the Wisconsin legislature?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby addams » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

Oh My God!!
Wisconsin has a hero!
Wisconsin has a bunch of heros!

They are having a Lovefest in Wisconsin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVE_rLjxnfU

The Police in Wisconsin have publicly stated that they work for and with the people that they serve.

I think that is what I saw. Is it real?

Here what seems like a reasonable conversation in a format that I can read.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/25/p ... ol_capitol

It gets a little dull. The way I understand it. The police make important decisions about how we care for one another. Nurses make important decisions about how we care for one another. Teachers make important decisions about how we care for one another. Public employees work for the good of the public. Social workers, clerks, janitors, (Hey! Janitors are a part of the engineering staff.) A janitor has to do continuing eduction, also. It is a real profession worthy of our respect.

If, the people win, then, I would like to see a little cross training.

I digressed. I am pretty excited about Wisconsin. Is this what 'Sports Fans' experience?
I am not on the field. But, I really care about the game.

This is not a game. Governor Walker may not be going out to have a beer with 'The People' after this.
It is Governor Walker vs The People.

Poor Governor Walker. Do you think that his rich friends will stop being his friends, if, he loses? No Way. Right?

He has, like, fifty people that are his 'team'. They will all fly off to the Caribbean to have a fancy girlie drink and lick their wounds. Right?
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby diguidum » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:46 pm UTC

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby rath358 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:38 pm UTC

Arrian wrote:
rath358 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxCtacdoXE

A video of the bill passing in the assembly. Somehow, only 68 of the 99 representatives got their votes recorded during the twenty seconds (0:55 through about 1:15 inn the video)

Is it just me, or is there something very, very wrong with that?


It passed 51-17, the 31 missing wouldn't have made a difference. Closing voting so quickly might have been ugly partisan politics, but it didn't affect the outcome. And I don't know, how long is voting normally open in the Wisconsin legislature?

I realize that the 31 would not have made a difference, but it is still very wrong that they did not get to vote. I am not sure if this is the way it is usually done here, but either way, there is something very, very wrong going on.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

rath358 wrote:I realize that the 31 would not have made a difference, but it is still very wrong that they did not get to vote. I am not sure if this is the way it is usually done here, but either way, there is something very, very wrong going on.
The other representatives were either outside of the chamber when roll was called and didn't have time to get back in or they were stunned and became inflamed roll was called and failed to put in their votes electronically. Once the speaker saw that roll had a majority he didn't wait for the rest due to the commotion. My understanding is that due to the electronic system, most votes actually occur very quickly in the assembly(<30 seconds). Granted usually the speaker confirms that everyone in the room voted before closing. Now I am not saying that because this is relatively close to normal operating procedure in the Wisconsin assembly, that it should be, but its important to understand when considering this.



*the Wisconsin Clerks student handbook describes it akin to an auction and viewing the video of the tax cuts passed in January, the roll only remains open for about 11 seconds.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby rath358 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

Oh, he realized there was a majority, and cut it off. That makes a lot more sense, although part of me still disagrees with it. After watching the relevant bit of the video you posted, I think taking less than 30 seconds for a vote, under normal circumstances, is just fine, but I am still rather shocked at the fact that nearly a third of the representatives didn't get to vote.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby morriswalters » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:50 am UTC

Just as a point of curiosity does anyone have a reliable metric for teachers that takes into account the student body they are trying to teach? Or anything besides test scores. Or are we still working under the assumption that all students are created equal, and therefore you can infer a teachers performance from test scores. If the Wisconsin law assumes that Unions are budget busters, why are Police and Firefighters excluded. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

[sarcasm]If your goal is to improve education and reduce costs to the public, why not outsource everything out. Then you don't have to worry about unions since government wouldn't employee anyone. Let everyone pay for their own kids education. Better yet remove the mandate for public education. Then everybody who goes to school will want to be there and test scores would be bound to rise.[/sarcasm]

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:03 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Just as a point of curiosity does anyone have a reliable metric for teachers that takes into account the student body they are trying to teach? Or anything besides test scores. Or are we still working under the assumption that all students are created equal, and therefore you can infer a teachers performance from test scores.
If you repeat the process of testing over and over after every year, and there are teachers that constantly have students with higher test scores and ones with lower, that points to the teacher as the common factor. If you have a large enough sample size, you can measure the impact the teacher is having on tests scores. That being said, tests scores still need to be valid measures of students abilities, thats a lot less tenable.


If the Wisconsin law assumes that Unions are budget busters, why are Police and Firefighters excluded.

1. Because for some reason, they deserve to be unionized and teachers don't. The reason I don't like the teachers union has much more to do with the impact I believe they are having on our education system, not budgetary reasons.

2. Its possible the governor does eventually want to deunionize the police and firefighters. It may have been to start with a smaller section of the unions, and chip away at them in order to avoid a larger public outcry.

3. Many of the firefighters and police unions supported him, it may politics.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:38 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Just as a point of curiosity does anyone have a reliable metric for teachers that takes into account the student body they are trying to teach? Or anything besides test scores. Or are we still working under the assumption that all students are created equal, and therefore you can infer a teachers performance from test scores. If the Wisconsin law assumes that Unions are budget busters, why are Police and Firefighters excluded. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

There are statistical ways to get around this, the LA Times had a rather detailed series that reviewed schools & teachers using value-added analysis. The basic idea is that annual tests are given placing students into a percentile on a state level, and then comparing how the average percentile of where individual students place changes year to year (the full series is here, while not without flaws it's an interesting read).

That said, any testing still has problems, as Jahoclave mentioned earlier the administrative drawbacks of teaching to the test can cause disgusted teachers to quit (to say nothing of reduced long-term educational quality), and has the rather interesting effect of cutting down on science fair entry. I think the limitations of testing is in part why there's support for charter schools, with the hope being that when schools compete for students directly they'll try to appeal to parents & students on a subtler level then tests ever could (which is about all a federal or state government can use to judge). And since teachers unions tend to oppose charter schools as well as looking at test scores more closely, pretty much any reform effort counts on reduced power from unions.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:58 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:And since teachers unions tend to oppose charter schools as well as looking at test scores more closely, pretty much any reform effort counts on reduced power from unions.
Another thing that has a relatively strong correlation to good schools, is the number of in-class evaluations of teachers by administrators and in particular, random evaluations*. The unions have opposed these things at (most) every turn.

*Anecdotally in my school experience, whenever an evaluation was happening, the teacher was much better prepared for that day. The evaluations weren't evaluating the average day of the teacher, they were only evaluating the best.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:41 am UTC

Yeah, I remember reading something similar about a district by me - the city finally "won" the right to conduct evaluations of teachers, but since they all had to be scheduled well before hand it didn't mean much of anything in terms of improving the quality of teaching. Shit like this is why I'm largely in favor of limiting collective bargaining to wages like this law. It makes perfect sense for a union to exist when there's just one employer around to ensure safe work conditions and fair wages, but there's no reason at all why workers should have a direct say on how employers evaluate them.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby omgryebread » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:16 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:There are statistical ways to get around this, the LA Times had a rather detailed series that reviewed schools & teachers using value-added analysis. The basic idea is that annual tests are given placing students into a percentile on a state level, and then comparing how the average percentile of where individual students place changes year to year (the full series is here, while not without flaws it's an interesting read).
You still run into problems with this. Special education is a big one. Handicapped kids flatline a lot, and it's really impossible to predict when. In addition, the really special ed kids tend to have very small classes. In a large public school, there's probably around 10 or so mild to medium developmentally disabled kids, with 1 teacher (and a few support personell). With sample sizes that small, it's nearly impossible to tell whether a teacher is just bad, or they got a group of kids which just couldn't deal with the curriculum.

[/quote]That said, any testing still has problems, as Jahoclave mentioned earlier the administrative drawbacks of teaching to the test can cause disgusted teachers to quit (to say nothing of reduced long-term educational quality), and has the rather interesting effect of cutting down on science fair entry. I think the limitations of testing is in part why there's support for charter schools, with the hope being that when schools compete for students directly they'll try to appeal to parents & students on a subtler level then tests ever could (which is about all a federal or state government can use to judge). And since teachers unions tend to oppose charter schools as well as looking at test scores more closely, pretty much any reform effort counts on reduced power from unions.[/quote]The problem with trying to appeal to parents and students is that you're just changing the selection criteria from "poor" to "interested, intelligent parents" My totally uneducated guess is that a more private education system would see improvements in lower-middle class kids with two parents, and an overall drop in the performance of poor kids, as good teachers leave public schools for more desirable positions at charter/private schools.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:55 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:You still run into problems with this. Special education is a big one. Handicapped kids flatline a lot, and it's really impossible to predict when. In addition, the really special ed kids tend to have very small classes. In a large public school, there's probably around 10 or so mild to medium developmentally disabled kids, with 1 teacher (and a few support personell). With sample sizes that small, it's nearly impossible to tell whether a teacher is just bad, or they got a group of kids which just couldn't deal with the curriculum.

I'm reasonably confident that these measures would exclude special education. I suppose you might get cases where handicapped kids are more likely to occur among certain population segments, but even that wouldn't be particularly distortionary as the models build base expectations of the student body (based off of things like income parental status, known disabilities, etc) then grade schools based off of comparative statics of how much a school/teacher is able to exceed expectations. While the emergence of a handicap flat line in a given year might lead to a nominally lower score for a teacher, I don't know if the odd emergence of a single case or two in a given year will be able to destroy an overall average of a class of 20-30 students.


omgryebread wrote:The problem with trying to appeal to parents and students is that you're just changing the selection criteria from "poor" to "interested, intelligent parents" My totally uneducated guess is that a more private education system would see improvements in lower-middle class kids with two parents, and an overall drop in the performance of poor kids, as good teachers leave public schools for more desirable positions at charter/private schools.

I'm not convinced that this would necessarily be an issue. It's not as though testing will suddenly disappear, it's just that schools with sufficiently good scores as to not raise any eyebrows among higher up administrators will be free to concentrate their efforts on improving in areas completely unrelated to tests. I suppose it's possible that certain schools will have no standards at all and end up with a bad lot, but how is that any different than now? The comparative test scores will still be around, and once you separate the chaff from the wheat you'd still have the option of shuttering the obvious failures and letting the successful charter administrations take over the failures. There's inevitably going to be failures, but I'm highly uncomfortable with the idea we should deliberately embrace universal mediocrity out of fear of inequity ever surfacing.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby McCaber » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:13 am UTC

Man, between the lack of teachers' unions and cutting state funding to schools, the Milwaukee Public School district is fuuuucked.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:53 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:I'm reasonably confident that these measures would exclude special education.
Failing to account for special education programs was one of the major blunders with No Child Left Behind.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Wodashin » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

FOX just did a thing on showing how violent the protesters were since they would be yelling at and pushing the camera man and such.

Really media? I don't know what to believe anymore, and what's fake. Oh, Tea Party is Satan. No, union protesters are! See! No, see!

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Griffin » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

diguidum wrote:Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner.


Thats democracy, silly! This is REPRESENTATIVE Democracy.

A wolf (dressed as a sheep) promises a bunch of sheep more pasture if he's elected. Once he gets in office, he starts devouring sheep left and right, and argue that he's justified in doing so because it is the will of the people, like some sort of mandate!
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Crius » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:13 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
If the Wisconsin law assumes that Unions are budget busters, why are Police and Firefighters excluded.

1. Because for some reason, they deserve to be unionized and teachers don't. The reason I don't like the teachers union has much more to do with the impact I believe they are having on our education system, not budgetary reasons.

2. Its possible the governor does eventually want to deunionize the police and firefighters. It may have been to start with a smaller section of the unions, and chip away at them in order to avoid a larger public outcry.

3. Many of the firefighters and police unions supported him, it may politics.


Including policemen and firefighters would mean much more difficulty in passing the current proposal. In addition to the current protests, he'd have to deal with the "public safety" arguments - cops calling in sick in protest could cost a lot in public support.

Only some police and firefighter unions supported Walker, so it doesn't necessarily look like political back-scratching.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:00 am UTC

A letter from Charles Koch, explaining his support for Walker.

He basically claims its ideologically driven and not necessarily for his own business interest, although he admits these two align.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:03 am UTC

This Utah Phillips clip just popped up on my iTunes and it reminded me of why Unions are so important. Like our government, with its checks and balances, Unions provide the people a voice so they can balance the needs of the people against the desires of the bosses (corporations).

I think unions, especially the teachers union, need to lead the way to change in order to ensure that it's change they want.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby folkhero » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:24 am UTC

Garm wrote: Unions provide the people a voice so they can balance the needs of the people against the desires of the bosses (corporations).

Again, we are talking about public sector unions, so we can replace corporations desiring to make a profit with taxpayers looking to educate children in a cost-effective way.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:15 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Garm wrote: Unions provide the people a voice so they can balance the needs of the people against the desires of the bosses (corporations).

Again, we are talking about public sector unions, so we can replace corporations desiring to make a profit with taxpayers looking to educate children in a cost-effective way politicians attempting to get reelected.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby SWGlassPit » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:38 pm UTC

Wodashin wrote:FOX just did a thing on showing how violent the protesters were since they would be yelling at and pushing the camera man and such.

Really media? I don't know what to believe anymore, and what's fake. Oh, Tea Party is Satan. No, union protesters are! See! No, see!


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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:48 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Garm wrote: Unions provide the people a voice so they can balance the needs of the people against the desires of the bosses (corporations).

Again, we are talking about public sector unions, so we can replace corporations desiring to make a profit with taxpayers looking to educate children in a cost-effective way.


Same logic dictates that private sector unions a negotiating against the consumers. That's kind of a dead end either way. Taxpayers don't just look for cost-effective ways to educate their children, they look for ways to get their children a good education. On the plus side, teachers unions (since we're talking about education here), help keep class sizes down, arts in schools, and compensation high enough that sometimes, smart people are willing to teach. On the minus side, the teachers unions protect poor or aging teachers and resist evaluative practices with knee-jerk efficiency. Depending on how you look at it, teachers unions have either a positive or negative effect on curriculum.

On the private union side, you've got a pretty similar list of pluses and minuses for the actions of unions, depending on which one you look at. Thing is that the labor doesn't drive up consumer costs that much. Here in the U.S. if you look at the big auto makers, labor accounts for somewhere between 5 and 10% depending on who you believe. I'm sure you can see that a 10% pay increase for the workers doesn't effect consumer price by 10% as well.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

Garm wrote: Here in the U.S. if you look at the big auto makers, labor accounts for somewhere between 5 and 10% depending on who you believe. I'm sure you can see that a 10% pay increase for the workers doesn't effect consumer price by 10% as well.
The pay difference between Toyota and GM in 2008 was $48 an $69 and hour respectively. Thats a 44% higher wage than non-unions. Also although the labor costs to the automakers at %10 only include the labor of the automakers, not the labor of the parts suppliers which is also often unionized. All in all it probably has a significant effect on prices.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Cryopyre » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:34 pm UTC

I stand by my comrades in Wisconsin. Let's hope the struggle of the working class can defy the law of the aristocracy.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote: Here in the U.S. if you look at the big auto makers, labor accounts for somewhere between 5 and 10% depending on who you believe. I'm sure you can see that a 10% pay increase for the workers doesn't effect consumer price by 10% as well.
The pay difference between Toyota and GM in 2008 was $48 an $69 and hour respectively. Thats a 44% higher wage than non-unions. Also although the labor costs to the automakers at %10 only include the labor of the automakers, not the labor of the parts suppliers which is also often unionized. All in all it probably has a significant effect on prices.


Probably? Probably doesn't really cut it. Also, too: I was illustrating a point. Namely that the amount a union, any single union, bargains against those who use their services, be they "consumers" or "taxpayers" (same goddamn group, different labels. I fucking hate semantics) is pretty limited. The source of cost increase in this day and age is rarely labor.

Regarding the wage differences: IIRC the major difference in the pay scales was due to health care costs. I can't find the articles anymore because the intertubes are full of anti-union bullshit from rightwing blogs and I don't feel like sifting through it all to find the sources from when GM was being bailed out.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Qaanol » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:49 am UTC

Is it just me or do the recent resolutions passed to fine, and now to detain, the Democratic state senators of Wisconsin constitute bills of attainder?
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:54 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:Is it just me or do the recent resolutions passed to fine, and now to detain, the Democratic state senators of Wisconsin constitute bills of attainder?

No, it was already illegal for them to not show up. The senate just needed to vote them in contempt(i.e. confirm they didn't show up).
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:13 am UTC

It's largely symbolic, though. There's no way a Democrat governor is going to allow extradition, and there's no way the senators are going to return to Wisconsin until they're granted immunity.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby nowfocus » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:19 am UTC

Let's just hope the recall goes through - that would be an incredible end to this story.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:48 am UTC

I really really want to see Scott Walker concede. I hope he does. I really hope he does.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Wodashin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:02 am UTC

This is just getting crazy now.

Why don't we just let people walk out whenever they feel like it? Why didn't the Republicans just flee during the health care vote?

This protesting is just delaying the inevitable. The governor doesn't look like he'll change his mind.

This is passing in Ohio too I think.

I wish we could just accept that fact and move along.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:10 am UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:It's largely symbolic, though. There's no way a Democrat governor is going to allow extradition, and there's no way the senators are going to return to Wisconsin until they're granted immunity.

Well, the reason he did it, at least he claims, is that they have been sneaking over the boarder to see their families.

...but, yeah. In reality its mostly symbolic. I don't really think it would help Walkers PR anyway to have a Senator arrested and forcible brought to chambers.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby ++$_ » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:10 am UTC

Wodashin wrote:I wish we could just accept that fact and move along.
Glad to hear that you support the Governor's decision. Maybe you could let those of us who don't work out our own strategy.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Nordic Einar » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:11 am UTC

Wodashin wrote:This is just getting crazy now.

Why don't we just let people walk out whenever they feel like it? Why didn't the Republicans just flee during the health care vote?

This protesting is just delaying the inevitable. The governor doesn't look like he'll change his mind.

This is passing in Ohio too I think.

I wish we could just accept that fact and move along.


Yeah, fuck that non-violent civil disobedience as a means of protesting the removal of individual's rights. It's not like that's ever been successful in the past or anything...


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