Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Hawknc » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:23 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Although Az does a pretty stellar job in N&A...

>.<
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby clockworkmonk » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:25 pm UTC

well, in the US no, we don't recognize the ability of people under the age of 18 to form well thought out ideas and philosophies. If we did, teenagers would be allowed to enter into legally binding contracts.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Zamfir » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:31 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Yes. I think the xkcd forums should be a model for certain aspects of the new society. A decent world. One without the Jonas Brothers or Justin Bieber.

And with cheesegraters

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Yes. I think the xkcd forums should be a model for certain aspects of the new society. A decent world. One without the Jonas Brothers or Justin Bieber.

And with cheesegraters

Lots and lots of cheesegraters.

Also, dibs on Grand Inquisitor position. If only because I love me some comfy pillows.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Although Az does a pretty stellar job in N&A...

>.<

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Jahoclave wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Yes. I think the xkcd forums should be a model for certain aspects of the new society. A decent world. One without the Jonas Brothers or Justin Bieber.

And with cheesegraters

Lots and lots of cheesegraters.

Also, dibs on Grand Inquisitor position. If only because I love me some comfy pillows.

I prefer a cheese slicer personally. Will there be open mindedness for my people in this new world order? I'll bring the cheese...

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Zcorp » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:56 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
but do we really credit 16 year old's with the ability to have fully formed and supported philosophies?


yes >.>

Actually no.
Much like you have demonstrated here. Bieber, although he is likely being exploited and I don't really enjoy his work, seems to be quite a talented young guy. Try to picture his life, and I'd imagine his new movie will tell you a bit about it. He's probably spent thousands of hours learning music, dancing, instruments and singing. Being that he is 16 he has simply not had enough hours of being alive to expect him to be a philosophical guru as well as a 16 year old Pop idol. Not to mention accounting for the differences in types and levels of intelligence between people and development.

You seem to have this perception that everyone should of, was capable of, and had the opportunity to learn what you have. Which is simply false.

I don't expect pop stars twice his age to give reasonable answers to those questions, they've spent their entire lives trying to be performers not philosophers. Why would you expect him to have reasonable answers to these questions considering where he has spent what is likely the majority of his time, and why the fuck would Vanessa Grigoriadis. Talk about bad reporting/article writing, I'm sure it's getting Rolling Stone some money though.
Last edited by Zcorp on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:57 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Although Az does a pretty stellar job in N&A...

>.<


Er, sorry, you rock my world too. I've just been scolded by the searing flames of Az's reasonable fairness more than I've been seared by yours. Flame on Hawk, flame on.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby big boss » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:26 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
but do we really credit 16 year old's with the ability to have fully formed and supported philosophies?


yes >.>

Actually no.
Much like you have demonstrated here. Bieber, although he is likely being exploited and I don't really enjoy his work, seems to be quite a talented young guy. Try to picture his life, and I'd imagine his new movie will tell you a bit about it. He's probably spent thousands of hours learning music, dancing, instruments and singing. Being that he is 16 he has simply not had enough hours of being alive to expect him to be a philosophical guru as well as a 16 year old Pop idol. Not to mention accounting for the differences in types and levels of intelligence between people and development.

You seem to have this perception that everyone should of, was capable of, and had the opportunity to learn what you have. Which is simply false.

I don't expect pop stars twice his age to give reasonable answers to those questions, they've spent their entire lives trying to be performers not philosophers. Why would you expect him to have reasonable answers to these questions considering where he has spent what is likely the majority of his time, and why the fuck would Vanessa Grigoriadis. Talk about bad reporting/article writing, I'm sure it's getting Rolling Stone some money though.


Agree with what you say, but possessing knowledge about rape and knowing that it is bad can hardly be called a philosophy...
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:55 pm UTC

This whole thing:
tl;dr—Famous person says something stupid. Said person is neither responsible for creating or enforcing policy (he can't even vote), yet furor erupts anyway
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

And again:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Do people reading this thread know how to...I dunno, READ?
Princess Marzipan wrote:
M.C. wrote:Really guys, you're worrying what Justin Beiber thinks?
Me, personally? Not really. I care inasmuch as Bieber's legions of teenage fangirls who factor him into their adolescent teenage crushes and find him someone they can "safely" sexualize do. Because they're seeing that "everything happens for a reason" and that if they get pregnant they should just have the baby, after all WWBD?


We're still left wondering, what would batman do?

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

If I'm gonna be entirely ignored anyway, I fully support derailing this topic into discussion about Batman.

If I didn't, I'd likely get my fucking face deservedly punched in.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:11 pm UTC

To the batwomb! Image

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Malice » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:And again:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Do people reading this thread know how to...I dunno, READ?
Princess Marzipan wrote:
M.C. wrote:Really guys, you're worrying what Justin Beiber thinks?
Me, personally? Not really. I care inasmuch as Bieber's legions of teenage fangirls who factor him into their adolescent teenage crushes and find him someone they can "safely" sexualize do. Because they're seeing that "everything happens for a reason" and that if they get pregnant they should just have the baby, after all WWBD?


We're still left wondering, what would batman do?


In my expert opinion, Batman would work tirelessly into the night to discover a way to have a baby in like 4 days so as to not have the pregnancy interfere with his crime-fighting duties. He would raise it as best he could until it reached a certain age, and then he would fake his own death-by-mugging in a dark alley and leave the rest to Alfred.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Would his child then become the next generation batman since he faked his death by mugging? We could breed an army of batmen...

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby folkhero » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:51 pm UTC

Can't we all just agree that the problem of evil is a very difficult issue for people who believe in an omnipotent and good god, and that we shouldn't expect a 16 year old to have all the subtleties worked out, even when talking about the sensitive and contentious topic of rape?
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:52 pm UTC

I think that's why we're talking about batman.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby folkhero » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

Oh, sometimes when people talk about the Batman, my eyes glaze over a bit and I lose time because I'm taken back to my childhood.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:15 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:If I'm gonna be entirely ignored anyway, I fully support derailing this topic into discussion about Batman.

If I didn't, I'd likely get my fucking face deservedly punched in.

in the night

No you wouldn't. You're painting with watercolors on the How Not To Be a Douche Information Network. You came on right after the episode on how not to victim blame. Either that or you were cooking. I don't remember quite what show I gave you.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

PAINTING? I was supposed to PAINT? I spent that whole time masturbating...
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Radical_Initiator » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:14 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:PAINTING? I was supposed to PAINT? I spent that whole time masturbating...

Now that depends on your definition of "painting," doesn't it?
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:14 am UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:well, in the US no, we don't recognize the ability of people under the age of 18 to form well thought out ideas and philosophies. If we did, teenagers would be allowed to enter into legally binding contracts.


I suppose the word "yes" wasn't enough clarification:

I trust that 16 year olds, in some circumstances and depending on the 16 year old, might be able to form well thought out ideas and philosophies. I do not think this is the case for most, or even nearly all 16 year olds.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:24 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I suppose the word "yes" wasn't enough clarification:

I trust that 16 year olds, in some circumstances and depending on the 16 year old, might be able to form well thought out ideas and philosophies. I do not think this is the case for most, or even nearly all 16 year olds.

BLAH BLAH BLAH I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BATMAN FOR SOME REASON I MEAN WHAT IS UP WITH THAT IT IS THE THREAD TOPIC AFTER ALL I GUESS MAYBE BATMAN WAS JUST BEFORE MY TIME
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby uncivlengr » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:28 am UTC

Do you think it's a coincidence that he singled out [North] Korea in particular?
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:12 am UTC

uncivlengr wrote:Do you think it's a coincidence that he singled out [North] Korea in particular?

He needs to man up and do the fucking tour like he promised.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Cleverbeans » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:54 am UTC

He could always hit the DMZ in South Korea and sing in their little diplomacy hut, mind you it could be considered an act of war so it's probably best to bring Batman along for the tour.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Aikanaro » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:00 am UTC

Cleverbeans wrote:He could always hit the DMZ in South Korea and sing in their little diplomacy hut, mind you it could be considered an act of war so it's probably best to bring Batman along for the tour.

Or would Batman just pose as Bieber, to catch the attackers when they strike? But could even Batman bring himself to pose as that whiny punk?
EDIT: Allow me to derail your derailment of this thread!

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:45 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Cleverbeans wrote:He could always hit the DMZ in South Korea and sing in their little diplomacy hut, mind you it could be considered an act of war so it's probably best to bring Batman along for the tour.

Or would Batman just pose as Bieber, to catch the attackers when they strike? But could even Batman bring himself to pose as that whiny punk?
EDIT: Allow me to derail your derailment of this thread!

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:33 am UTC

Luckily I have a solution to the Bieber.
Spoiler:
Image
Or, just gone on up on this one. I'm a little tired and hungry. So I'm just going to pop on down to the local deli and get a sandwich and maybe some coffee. Hey, you know, it's your lucky break. Go on, do what you'd like. After all, everything happens for a reason.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:48 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Luckily I have a solution to the Bieber.
Spoiler:
Image
Or, just gone on up on this one. I'm a little tired and hungry. So I'm just going to pop on down to the local deli and get a sandwich and maybe some coffee. Hey, you know, it's your lucky break. Go on, do what you'd like. After all, everything happens for a reason.


But he's 16 years old...?
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Enokh » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:39 am UTC

Wait, if that picture is supposed to be referencing Harry Potter's parents, doesn't that just kind of prove the point of that perspective? If Voldemort hadn't ever killed HP's folks, HP wouldn't have been able to kill him (since he wouldn't have the scar/connection/constant training from shitty things happening to him).

Also, for a forum I've lurked for quite a while now due to it's humor/intelligence, this thread is incredibly disappointing. Yes, he said that the thinks everything happens for a reason (which, as mentioned by someone, is a belief held by an incredibly large number of people), but then immediately goes on to say how that doesn't make any sense to him in the case of rape, and then admits that he isn't in a position to pass judgement due to never being involved in such a situation -- which, by the way, shows a level of self-awareness and humility that is exceedingly rare in general, not to mention in a 16 year old pop star.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:I don't expect pop stars twice his age to give reasonable answers to those questions, they've spent their entire lives trying to be performers not philosophers. Why would you expect him to have reasonable answers to these questions considering where he has spent what is likely the majority of his time, and why the fuck would Vanessa Grigoriadis. Talk about bad reporting/article writing, I'm sure it's getting Rolling Stone some money though.


I do, at the risk of listing lots of off-beat musicians who are also erudite, charming and well informed... I think there are more than enough "celebrities" who are intelligent, and it's something we have every right to demand more of from the rest of that rabble half the world is looking up to, and that includes Biber.

Also, if Batman was interviewed by rolling stone, what would he have said?
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:Wait, if that picture is supposed to be referencing Harry Potter's parents, doesn't that just kind of prove the point of that perspective? If Voldemort hadn't ever killed HP's folks, HP wouldn't have been able to kill him (since he wouldn't have the scar/connection/constant training from shitty things happening to him).


Drawing inference about fate from stories which are invented and crafted is folly. Image meme instances rarely have philosophical truths hidden in their muddy shallows. They're made by people with too much time on their hands and inane senses of humour.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:28 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Zcorp wrote:I don't expect pop stars twice his age to give reasonable answers to those questions, they've spent their entire lives trying to be performers not philosophers. Why would you expect him to have reasonable answers to these questions considering where he has spent what is likely the majority of his time, and why the fuck would Vanessa Grigoriadis. Talk about bad reporting/article writing, I'm sure it's getting Rolling Stone some money though.


I do, at the risk of listing lots of off-beat musicians who are also erudite, charming and well informed... I think there are more than enough "celebrities" who are intelligent, and it's something we have every right to demand more of from the rest of that rabble half the world is looking up to, and that includes Biber.

It is certainly not something we can demand of them now.
What we can do is work to build an environment for children where we teach philosophy and critical thinking and provide tools for them to learn more themselves. An environment that does not exist now.

My statement does not say 'pop idols/celebrities are not intelligent and are incapable of philosophical thinking.' My statement said 'performers spent thousands of hours learning to perform and then thousands of hours more performing' it is wrong to expect them to understand philosophy on the same level as someone who spends the same amount of time Critically Thinking. Especially when the person in question is 16 years old, the amount of expose to those concepts is minimal, they haven't been alive long enough to biologically develop nor intellectually develop good Critical Thinking skills, and in addition to the quite impressive performing skills. Especially when the environment he grew up in is not conducive to creating Critical Thinking, and often decrease the ability for people to build those skills.

And I wouldn't bring philosophical questions to Britney Spears either as, to my knowledge, she has not publicly back any ideological postion. I would however bring such questions to Bono, Ed Begley Jr, George Clooney or even Kanye West (although in this case I'd expect an unhealthy dose of crazy within the answer). As each of them are involved in publicly discussing ideology, have viewpoints to legitimately analyze, and due to their celebrity an level of power within the situation.

In this case, such questions were used a underhanded way to sell magazines, not to get real thought out answers on a touchy subject.
Last edited by Zcorp on Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:35 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby duckshirt » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:31 pm UTC

Wow, I didn't realize
Bieber wrote:"Um. Well, I think that's really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I don't know how that would be a reason. I guess I haven't been in that position, so I wouldn't be able to judge that."

was an extremist thing to say...
Sure, anyone's words can be criticized, but no one's should be taken in a ridiculously hyperbolic way...
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Hope_ » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:44 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:In this case it such questions were used a underhanded way to sell magazines, not to get real thought out answers on an touchy subject.

I entirely agree with this. The magazine was wrong to ask him those questions he shouldn't be seen as any form of authority figure on these views.

But, as others have said, he has legions of followers who will read this. Young female followers. And he has put himself (or he has been forced from a young age) into this position of responsibility and power, that means he has to be responsible for what he says.

He has to realise those young female fans who read his thoughts take him seriously. They may not adopt his views completely but they are now out there and part of their ideas.
He has basically told his young impressionable teenage fans that if they get raped and get pregnant they have to keep it and go through all that pain and possibly suffering. Do they take his views completely seriously and do everything he says? No. But those views are now part of their thought process. If they get more pressure like this from other sources, it's like a dripping tap, they will eventually believe it. This is how rape culture, victim blaming and other lovely things like that work.

So,
Should he have been asked those questions? No.
Should he have realised his power and responsibility in this situation, not to mention used his excessive media knowledge and realised the need to keep a good media presence? Yes, and he should have answered with a simple 'I don't feel qualified to answer that' or 'I refuse to answer that question'. I don't think that is asking too much of a 16 year-old who knows the business like he does.
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:57 pm UTC

Hope_ wrote:But, as others have said, he has legions of followers who will read this. Young female followers. And he has put himself (or he has been forced from a young age) into this position of responsibility and power, that means he has to be responsible for what he says.
Again he is 16 (barely past a very significant developmental milestone), he hasn't had much time to understand the differences between his life and those of others, or what we could call wisdom. Something that is not common among young people (as it is based on experience, time and empathy), he is likely quite unaware of the magnitude of his impact and I'm sure was not expecting to be looked at as authority on the subject.

Should people be teaching him about his influence? Of course but to expect him to understand it at his age and to have a canned and thoughtful response to questions I'm sure he's wasn't expecting to answer is entirely unfair. It's even a bit unfair to expect his PR team or parents to have prepped him for such questions as no respectable reporter would ask them.

Yes, and he should have answered with a simple 'I don't feel qualified to answer that' or 'I refuse to answer that question'. I don't think that is asking too much of a 16 year-old who knows the business like he does.

He did, "I guess I haven't been in that position, so I wouldn't be able to judge that." He started with a very canned phrase that is generally acceptable and one that he is unlikely to have actually thought about critically, which is common for people much older than he is, and the end of his statement was just what you wanted him to say.

That his statement was not just this suggests he was more off guard and defaulted to something indoctrinated in him, "everything happens for a reason" then presumably within a matter of a second self-corrected his statement to remove any judgement. This suggests he was self-evaluating in a unfamiliar situation on a concept that he has not challenged much, likely due to living a quite charmed life.

Is he likely to think about his response and be coached so that he can answer the question more precisely the next time? yes.


Edit:
And I suppose his PR team and Parents or the supporting people in his life could be using him to push an ideology of anti-choice/pro-life, as they understand his influence and the behavior it might cause. But then we get back into that being exploited thing.

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Telchar
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Telchar » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:52 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Yes. I think the xkcd forums should be a model for certain aspects of the new society. A decent world. One without the Jonas Brothers or Justin Bieber.

And with cheesegraters

Lots and lots of cheesegraters.

Also, dibs on Grand Inquisitor position. If only because I love me some comfy pillows.


Psh. Shadow Minister of Justice>all other titles.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby Rinsaikeru » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:29 pm UTC

That is far more than enough derailing for one topic. If you have something to add to the topic (Beiber not Batman) go ahead. -Rin
Rice Puddin.

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sourmìlk
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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:28 am UTC

was an extremist thing to say...



You don't get to qualify an extremist statement by adding "but I don't know the mechanics of the extreme claim I just made."
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Bieber Calls American Healthcare Evil, God OK's Rape

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:54 pm UTC

If I ever become famous, I'm going to act crazy and say stupid things from the onset so people will think of me as being brilliant and eccentric rather than being a role model who gets caught with metaphorical hands in pants and having my whole career disgraced by a public who can't separate my personal life from my works
frezik wrote:Anti-photons move at the speed of dark

DemonDeluxe wrote:Paying to have laws written that allow you to do what you want, is a lot cheaper than paying off the judge every time you want to get away with something shady.


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