CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:56 pm UTC

I think a large portion of the problem in communicating things like this is that we're attempting to make an issue binary when it is not.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:26 pm UTC

CrayolaTwo wrote:Okay, let's get one thing straight: Racism =/= prejudice.

Racism = Power + Prejudice.

Actually, prejudice based on race = racism.

Granted, it's more of a problem that needs more work to fix if the racism is widespread in a group that has more power than the group they are prejudiced against.

But men with prejudice against women + more power than most women != racist men. Your definition of what is and isn't racism is silly.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrayolaTwo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

But men with prejudice against women + more power than most women != racist men. Your definition of what is and isn't racism is silly.


Good point.

Racism = Power + Prejudice against race.

Your example would, of course, be sexism.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Jessica » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

Actually, it (-ism = power + prejudice) is one of the accepted definitions of racism. Words can have multiple definitions, and in different contexts can mean different things. In a sociological context, that is the generally accepted definition (or at least it's a simplification of it).
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Lucrece » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:51 pm UTC

Eh, I thought discrimination was the word for the exertion of power driven by prejudice. Racism/superiority complexes always came off to me as philosophical constructs instead of actions.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

You don't need a power imbalance for it to be racism. It's just less problematic without a power imbalance.

define:racism
Spoiler:
the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes; The belief that one race is superior to all others; Prejudice or discrimination based upon race
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racism

racist - based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
racist - a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
racist - discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Racist - Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to the act of bringing the issue of race or racism into a debate, perhaps to obfuscate the matter. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist_(epithet)

Racists is a 2006 novel by Kunal Basu about a scientific experiment in the mid-19th century in which a white girl and a black boy are raised together as savages on a small uninhabited island off the coast of Africa. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racists

racist - An advocate of racism; Of, relating to, or advocating racism
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racist

An ideology based on the idea that humans can be separated into distinct racial groups and that these groups can be ranked on a hierarchy of intelligence, ability, morality etc. See: ETHNOCENTRISM / RACE / .
bitbucket.icaap.org/dict.pl

the use of race to establish and justify a social hierarchy and system of power that privileges, preferences or advances certain individuals or groups of people usually at the expense of others. Racism is perpetuated through both interpersonal and institutional practices.
http://www.understandingrace.org/resour ... ssary.html

A set of incorrect assumptions, opinions and acts resulting from the belief that one race is inherently/genetically superior to another. It occurs when people are not treated fairly because of their cultural or ethnic differences. ...
http://www.japanesecanadianhistory.net/glossary.htm

is power plus racial prejudice, a system that leads to the oppression of or discrimination against, specific racial or ethnic groups.
colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html

Prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race; can be expressed individually or through institutional power and authority.
http://www.upei.ca/studentservices/dive ... efinitions

Yes, power + prejudice is a definition of racism, but not a very common one. It's like if there was a discussion about gay people and someone said "but gay means happy". We'd all be like :roll:.

Edit: in fact, the site with that definition is no longer up.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:12 am UTC

IcedT wrote:
MolBio wrote:What advantage?
I have never perceived an advantage due to my skin color.
Just because no one says "oh, I see you're white, let me get you a better table" doesn't mean you don't live in a global system that was set up by majority-white powers. Ask why English, French, German and Spanish are among the most important global languages, why so many countries only gained independence after 1945, why even with new emerging economies the heart of the developed world is still firmly in the Euroamerican sphere. The UK once ruled over a quarter of the world's people and they only abandoned (most of) it a couple generations ago. The world's biggest economy and mightiest military power has had 43 white presidents and one who's just half-white.


And prior to the Euro-American sphere, there was the Middle-Eastern sphere, prior to that there was the Roman(Mediterranean) Sphere, on the other side of the world was the Chinese sphere of power.

Currently the Chinese sphere is on the up-tick, change is always happening, and not always in the favor of those currently in charge, you only have to look to history to see how that plays out, China falls into disarray, the Arab Caliphates fall to in-fighting, Rome falls to the Huns. Personally I think the Euro-American sphere will fall to commercialism (the west is spoiled with our play toys, and not eager enough to move out of our comfort zone to do what needs to be done)



Thesh wrote:Blacks were given the short end of the stick. From slavery, to segregation. However, the barriers enforcing segregation are now gone, and the goal should be to integrate. Yes, it is difficult to get out of poverty, but blaming everything on race is not going to solve your problems. You cannot get out of poverty unless you work at it.


I feel like you're channeling your inner Bill Cosby here.


The Great Hippo wrote:Jewish pride groups


I wasn't aware this particular religion was overwhelmingly Caucasian.


Pez Dispens3r wrote:Feynman was a brilliant student who helped develop the atomic bomb, but he had problems being accepted into colleges because he was Jewish. There are always factors, societal, economic and otherwise, that play into quality of life. Your point is limited.


What's with the ad hominem attack?

And tell me, how much different do you think the American higher education system is now versus how it was 80 years ago, when I doubt you will find a single person who will not admit that there were problems before the mid 1960's with racial and religious discrimination. I think we've come a long way, so your point while once true, is no longer thus.


*bird wrote:(and race is correlated to class)


and yellow is correlated to butter, and sex is correlated to guys, etc. a lot of things are related to class, your parents, the economy, your region of the country, singling one aspect of it out to try and prove a point doesn't work.

I will not argue that there is a disparate number of minorities living below the poverty line, but at what point will the onus be on them to pick themselves up out of poverty? At what point will you be satisfied that we have done all we can to provide the tools for them to do so?

KestrelLowing wrote:but I still believe that the best way to go about eliminating racism is to stop acting like race matters.


seconded


CrayolaTwo wrote:Okay, let's get one thing straight: Racism =/= prejudice.

Racism = Power + Prejudice.
White people in America can experience prejudice against them. They cannot experience racism directed at them, because they are the in the "majority" and as such have the power. Now, keep in mind that things like "majority" and "minority" are not referring to actual numbers, but to power. They're better called a "sociological majority" or "sociological minority" or something. This is how females can be considered a minority.


Collins would disagree with you

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition wrote:1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief


you don't have to be a majority to be racist


Oregonaut wrote:I think a large portion of the problem in communicating things like this is that we're attempting to make an issue binary when it is not.


1's and 0's, black and white, nothing ever works out that way. scenarios, more often than not, play out on an individual basis, and don't follow a set way of playing out

unfortunately the debaters are bringing their own point of views into it, some of us grew up where we were the minority, thus see things from a different point of view from those who grew up in the majority (note, I said minority and majority, that was not meant to mean white and black, I didn't grow up with 300 million neighbors, I grew up with 3000 fellow high schoolers)

some from the poor side of things, some from the richer side of things, each of these things imprints on us a set of beliefs, where we disconnect is when we discredit each others pov and only look at things through our particular shade of colored glasses.

On a similar note, if you look hard enough for something, you will find it, racism, sexism, elitism, A paranoid person's fears are often based on a small truth.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:19 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Jewish pride groups
I wasn't aware this particular religion was overwhelmingly Caucasian.
Well, I used the term 'Jewish pride groups' rather than 'Jewish people' for a reason--although I might be completely wrong about that assertion, and if so, I apologize--it was my understanding that the vast majority of Jewish pride groups in the US are overwhelmingly Caucasian.

It also bares mentioning that Judaism is far too complex to be boiled down to merely a religion--most sects I'm aware of are permeable to any race, but that doesn't mean there isn't a racial component (there are atheist Jews, for instance--if Judaism is just a religion, how does that even work?).
CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
KestrelLowing wrote:but I still believe that the best way to go about eliminating racism is to stop acting like race matters.
seconded
Even when race is important to you, personally? Similarly, is the best way to end sexism to tell women and men who identify as such that they should stop putting value on their gender identities?

I think the answer to this question is immensely complicated, and if we are to dismantle institutional racism without demanding that people give up racial or cultural identities, our answers must respond to that complexity.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:44 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It also bares mentioning that Judaism is far too complex to be boiled down to merely a religion--most sects I'm aware of are permeable to any race, but that doesn't mean there isn't a racial component (there are atheist Jews, for instance--if Judaism is just a religion, how does that even work?).


Judaism is incredibly complex, I know a lot of Jews that claim it as their ethnicity even.

The Great Hippo wrote:Even when race is important to you, personally? Similarly, is the best way to end sexism to tell women and men who identify as such that they should stop putting value on their gender identities?

I think the answer to this question is immensely complicated, and if we are to dismantle institutional racism without demanding that people give up racial or cultural identities, our answers must respond to that complexity.


Race as it matters to an individual differs from Race from a societal point of view.

From a personal PoV, go for it, celebrate your heritage, enjoy the culture that was secured for you by your forefathers.

From a societal PoV though, race creates more problems than it solves. Jobs, Education, Personal Freedoms, shouldn't be based on racial background, it should be equally available to those who want to partake. Race based scholarships, job opportunities, etc. feed into the cycle of percieved racial inequality. They should be done away with.

In the end, Black, White, Asian, we are all human beings, something that goes beyond the color of our skin or our heritage, we all die the same, we all need food to live, social contact to stay sane. No importance should be placed on color when you're doing something that benefits us all, whether that is earning a living, getting an education, or just enjoying life.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:49 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
Pez Dispens3r wrote:Feynman was a brilliant student who helped develop the atomic bomb, but he had problems being accepted into colleges because he was Jewish. There are always factors, societal, economic and otherwise, that play into quality of life. Your point is limited.


What's with the ad hominem attack?

And tell me, how much different do you think the American higher education system is now versus how it was 80 years ago, when I doubt you will find a single person who will not admit that there were problems before the mid 1960's with racial and religious discrimination. I think we've come a long way, so your point while once true, is no longer thus.

There wasn't ad hominem: the 'idiot' comment, the one you didn't bother to quote, didn't form my counter-point but was decorative.

That we've come a long way in regards to not discriminating against people with our education is commendable, but doesn't mean it doesn't still happen. It's just less overt.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:52 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:From a societal PoV though, race creates more problems than it solves. Jobs, Education, Personal Freedoms, shouldn't be based on racial background, it should be equally available to those who want to partake. Race based scholarships, job opportunities, etc. feed into the cycle of percieved racial inequality. They should be done away with.
I'm not so sure; I think governments shouldn't address race (except perhaps in some extreme circumstances), but I think that race-based scholarships (for instance) are another way we celebrate our heritage. I'm opposed to generic 'white scholarships' for the reasons I outlined that 'white heritage' feels like something unworthy of celebration--but I'd wholly support Irish scholarships, or Polish scholarships, or Germanic scholarships, or Nordic scholarships, or other largely Caucasian-targeted scholarships. Why not allow members who share a cultural experience to work toward the goal of allowing that particular cultural experience to flourish and prosper?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:03 am UTC

Pez Dispens3r wrote:There wasn't ad hominem: the 'idiot' comment, the one you didn't bother to quote, didn't form my counter-point but was decorative.

That we've come a long way in regards to not discriminating against people with our education is commendable, but doesn't mean it doesn't still happen. It's just less overt.



D'oh, didn't mean to leave that in there, and that was directed towards the gnat comment, not the idiot comment.

and I don't doubt it still doesn't happen, but I doubt it happens to the extent that is being suggested in this thread, and implied in your comment about Feynman (although that might be reading too much into your comment, my apologies if it is)

The Great Hippo wrote:I'm not so sure; I think governments shouldn't address race (except perhaps in some extreme circumstances), but I think that race-based scholarships (for instance) are another way we celebrate our heritage. I'm opposed to generic 'white scholarships' for the reasons I outlined that 'white heritage' feels like something unworthy of celebration--but I'd wholly support Irish scholarships, or Polish scholarships, or Germanic scholarships, or Nordic scholarships, or other largely Caucasian-targeted scholarships. Why not allow members who share a cultural experience to work toward the goal of allowing that particular cultural experience to flourish and prosper?


"You were lucky enough to be born into the right culture, so here's some free money for your education." Doesn't quite sit right with me. I agree with you in thought, but in practice, it would turn into a big mess.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:18 am UTC

In regards to "Racism = Power + Prejudice":

I think that's misleading. Common definition of racism is a dislike/distrust of someone based on race. It seems like this is an attempt to equate racism to discrimination; however, I believe these two words should remain distinct. Also, while power and prejudice are prerequisites for discrimination, having both power and prejudice don't guarantee discrimination. It is very possible to ignore your prejudices in decision making. The only truly accurate form of that equation I can think of is this:

Power + Prejudice = Power + Prejudice

To me, that definition reads like someone is trying to downplay racism by minorities by saying that minorities can't be racist because they are not in power.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:38 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:"You were lucky enough to be born into the right culture, so here's some free money for your education." Doesn't quite sit right with me. I agree with you in thought, but in practice, it would turn into a big mess.
Is that much different than "You were lucky to be born to the right parents, so here's some free money for your education"?

Or are we discussing government-funded scholarships, here?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:47 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Is that much different than "You were lucky to be born to the right parents, so here's some free money for your education"?

Or are we discussing government-funded scholarships, here?



I both agree and dis-agree with you. It's not much different, but that's an issue of parenting, not social equality.

And I wasn't aware there are gov't funded race based scholarships, those should be ended.

I'm not completely against cultural scholarships, if for instance the criteria for winning the scholarship was based on say, writing an essay on a cultural folk-hero, and anyone was allowed to submit an entry, that would be ok in my book, but if you restrict participants to a particular culture you start hitting the grey area that I prefer not wandering into.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:54 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I'm not completely against cultural scholarships, if for instance the criteria for winning the scholarship was based on say, writing an essay on a cultural folk-hero, and anyone was allowed to submit an entry, that would be ok in my book, but if you restrict participants to a particular culture you start hitting the grey area that I prefer not wandering into.
Just so we're clear here, what you're speaking against is privately-funded scholarships setting the criteria for how they dole out those scholarships based on race?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:29 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Just so we're clear here, what you're speaking against is privately-funded scholarships setting the criteria for how they dole out those scholarships based on race?


I knew it was going to boil down to this.

I'm against it just as much as I'm against a private restaurant owner excluding clientele on the basis of race.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:35 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I knew it was going to boil down to this.

I'm against it just as much as I'm against a private restaurant owner excluding clientele on the basis of race.
Well, just to be clear, I think there are two types of exclusionary practices--there are targeted exclusionary practices ("I will not serve Jews, African people, Asian people, or Hispanic people in my restaurant") and there are exclusionary practices that exist to provide for the flourishing of a particular culture, usually one you're part of ("This is a restaurant for Italians, by Italians; I built it to serve Italian people"). On the surface, these practices might not look or feel much different, but I can see how the tone might be different (the latter isn't an attempt to exclude all other groups so much as a desire to share something with people who have a similar cultural experience, and build on those experiences), and I think that might be a key distinction.

Racially-targeted scholarships don't bother me for a similar reason--I see it as a way for a community to try and provide the means for that community to flourish, and grow.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:41 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I knew it was going to boil down to this.

I'm against it just as much as I'm against a private restaurant owner excluding clientele on the basis of race.
Well, just to be clear, I think there are two types of exclusionary practices--there are targeted exclusionary practices ("I will not serve Jews, African people, Asian people, or Hispanic people in my restaurant") and there are exclusionary practices that exist to provide for the flourishing of a particular culture, usually one you're part of ("This is a restaurant for Italians, by Italians; I built it to serve Italian people"). On the surface, these practices might not look or feel much different, but I can see how the tone might be different (the latter isn't an attempt to exclude all other groups so much as a desire to share something with people who have a similar cultural experience, and build on those experiences), and I think that might be a key distinction.

Racially-targeted scholarships don't bother me for a similar reason--I see it as a way for a community to try and provide the means for that community to flourish, and grow.



wouldn't you want to share your culture though? How does excluding me from the above hypothetical Italian Restaurant serve to share the rich Italian culture, thus foster an appreciation among non-Italians?

Likewise, in the hypothetical scholarship I proposed, I am a non-culture, I decide to apply for a cultural scholarship, I do the research, I learn and develop a sense for the culture, just by the door opened by applying for a scholarship

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:45 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:wouldn't you want to share your culture though? How does excluding me from the above hypothetical Italian Restaurant serve to share the rich Italian culture, thus foster an appreciation among non-Italians?
The question is whether or not the people who built the restaurant want or care about your appreciation as a non-Italian.

The restaurant example is a little tricky, I admit, because there's not a lot to gain from excluding non-Italians from Italian cuisine; the scholarship example is a lot less tricky because there is a lot to gain from excluding non-Italians from Italian money. A community's desire to invest their resources in the improvement of the people who are inside of that community seems sensible, to me.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:59 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The question is whether or not the people who built the restaurant want or care about your appreciation as a non-Italian.

The restaurant example is a little tricky, I admit, because there's not a lot to gain from excluding non-Italians from Italian cuisine; the scholarship example is a lot less tricky because there is a lot to gain from excluding non-Italians from Italian money. A community's desire to invest their resources in the improvement of the people who are inside of that community seems sensible, to me.


And now we have come back to the crux of the matter, the bettering of one particular segment of society without regard to the others. The whole foundation of the argument's against whites (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the point's there).

Some segment's of society have more money at their disposal (class divides somewhat fall along racial lines, but not solely because of race), so if all segment's for this hypothetical, acted as the above hypothetical Italians, we would once again, have a somewhat unfair societal outlook based on cultural background. My end game is providing a society that provides an equal opportunity for anyone who has the will to put in the effort(be it working hard, studying hard), for them to succeed.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Griffin » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:22 am UTC

The problem is, while I support scholarships based on community, I have fundamental disagreements with communities based on race.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:41 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:And now we have come back to the crux of the matter, the bettering of one particular segment of society without regard to the others. The whole foundation of the argument's against whites (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the point's there).

Some segment's of society have more money at their disposal (class divides somewhat fall along racial lines, but not solely because of race), so if all segment's for this hypothetical, acted as the above hypothetical Italians, we would once again, have a somewhat unfair societal outlook based on cultural background. My end game is providing a society that provides an equal opportunity for anyone who has the will to put in the effort(be it working hard, studying hard), for them to succeed.
Griffin wrote:The problem is, while I support scholarships based on community, I have fundamental disagreements with communities based on race.
Aren't families little more than small communities, usually united by race? That is, what distinction would you draw between a family that supports itself before those outside of the family (as most families do) and a community that supports itself before those outside of the community (as most communities do)?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby *bird » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:53 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:The problem is, while I support scholarships based on community, I have fundamental disagreements with communities based on race.


You have problems with, say, a Swedish cultural center? Civil War Reenactment Societies? Renaissance reenactments? I could go on.

We already give focus in large part in American culture to certain other cultures (and guess where most of these cultures come from?).

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:Currently the Chinese sphere is on the up-tick, change is always happening, and not always in the favor of those currently in charge, you only have to look to history to see how that plays out, China falls into disarray, the Arab Caliphates fall to in-fighting, Rome falls to the Huns. Personally I think the Euro-American sphere will fall to commercialism (the west is spoiled with our play toys, and not eager enough to move out of our comfort zone to do what needs to be done)


Uh, yeah, we said that Japan would be dominant in the 90s as well. How's that outlook doing? It may that

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I think we've come a long way, so your point while once true, is no longer thus.


Right, cause those "non-normal markers" (excuse the term) have no bearing on whether someone gets hired. And Asian Americans are viewed as well rounded leaders instead of being stereotyped as worker drones? This is why I think "not thinking about race anymore" is so awful - so many people don't even see the inequalities (or worse, think that being a minority is advantageous), and thus still perpetuate them.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Aren't families little more than small communities, usually united by race? That is, what distinction would you draw between a family that supports itself before those outside of the family (as most families do) and a community that supports itself before those outside of the community (as most communities do)?



restating your argument using different words doesn't work so well. but I'll bite.

what's the largest community of them all? The world, we all share the same small earth sized planet, breath the same air, the same biology, the same nutritional needs.

slightly more pertinent to the topic, our nation is a large community, we all share the same constitution, the same shitty government, the same rights, in most cases the same language.

Family is a community, but you really don't have a choice whether or not to participate in your family, you could always go the runaway road, but that doesn't often work out beneficially, you do however have a choice in participating in your culture's customs and traditions. How else would you explain American Muslims who don't wear the Hijab? going back to when you earlier asked

The Great Hippo wrote:Is that much different than "You were lucky to be born to the right parents, so here's some free money for your education"?


I would prefer parents not pay for their children's education, but how would you govern that? Gov't stepping in to level playing fields across all races, nationalities, cultures, and creeds? sure, but reaching into the house and home? that's a bit too much.

*bird wrote:Uh, yeah, we said that Japan would be dominant in the 90s as well. How's that outlook doing? It may that


I drive a Japanese car, I play my Japanese game station on my Japanese TV. But what do I know? I was only in elementary school in the 90's when there were Japanese cartoons all over the TV

*bird wrote:Right, cause those "non-normal markers" (excuse the term) have no bearing on whether someone gets hired. And Asian Americans are viewed as well rounded leaders instead of being stereotyped as worker drones? This is why I think "not thinking about race anymore" is so awful - so many people don't even see the inequalities (or worse, think that being a minority is advantageous), and thus still perpetuate them.


(pardon any language)

Where the hell do you live that you're still seeing this shit? I grew up with a shit ton of Asians, who are currently excelling in college, or in post college careers (white collar, not blue collar). I work on a daily basis with black people that have the same work ethic and go through the same shit I do on a daily basis. I was taught by Arabs who came to this country to find a better opportunity for themselves and their families.

pardon my incredulity, but THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE PURPORTING IT TO BE.

Yes, in some areas, there is still progress to be made, individuals who are so rooted in their sense of superiority that they will remain racist 'til the day they die. those people are what we call "Lost Causes". Treat them how they should be treated, ignore them. if they wish to be so ignorant, leave them in their self made hell hole and they will either die there, or figure out they've been left behind and try to catch up.

I don't mean to offend with the all caps, but seriously, either I've got the rosiest glasses ever on, or you need to stop tunnel visioning on the negative.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:23 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:Family is a community, but you really don't have a choice whether or not to participate in your family, you could always go the runaway road, but that doesn't often work out beneficially, you do however have a choice in participating in your culture's customs and traditions.
Er, yes, you do have a choice whether or not to participate in your family. People choose to leave their families all the time, just as people choose to leave their communities all the time.

You aren't drawing a distinction between the two (actually, you seem to be expressing a desire to dismantle all communities, but can't justify it because of the amount of intrusion it would require). All I can say at this point is that our needs as human beings are complex; some of those needs involve belonging to something more intimate than the entire world. While you're free to not share that need, I do think you should respect it.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby drkslvr » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:55 am UTC

*bird wrote:race is correlated to class

Is there any reason we have to measure something *correlated* to financial resources rather than measuring financial resources themselves? The month of the year is correlated to the frequency of birthdays. I could try to count every time a friend has a birthday, and use the relative-birthday-density to guess what month it is. But that would be both imprecise and unnecessarily difficult, when I could just look at a calendar and read the month. Every student fills out a FAFSA if they want federal aid. Why should a white male student with a FAFSA EFC of $2,000 receive fewer scholarships than a black female student with a FAFSA EFC of $2,000?

I can state with complete confidence that the correlation between race and financial resources can't fairly account for the discrepancy, because both students have the same financial resources available to them. The last time I checked, giving one person preference over another based on race was called racial discrimination.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby big boss » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:25 am UTC

drkslvr wrote:
*bird wrote:race is correlated to class

The last time I checked, giving one person preference over another based on race was called racial discrimination.


No in this case its positive discrimination so its obviously ok... amiright? (positive discrimination is a funny word if you think about it).
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby bvih » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:33 am UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
Spoiler:
The Great Hippo wrote:Aren't families little more than small communities, usually united by race? That is, what distinction would you draw between a family that supports itself before those outside of the family (as most families do) and a community that supports itself before those outside of the community (as most communities do)?



restating your argument using different words doesn't work so well. but I'll bite.

what's the largest community of them all? The world, we all share the same small earth sized planet, breath the same air, the same biology, the same nutritional needs.

slightly more pertinent to the topic, our nation is a large community, we all share the same constitution, the same shitty government, the same rights, in most cases the same language.

Family is a community, but you really don't have a choice whether or not to participate in your family, you could always go the runaway road, but that doesn't often work out beneficially, you do however have a choice in participating in your culture's customs and traditions. How else would you explain American Muslims who don't wear the Hijab? going back to when you earlier asked

The Great Hippo wrote:Is that much different than "You were lucky to be born to the right parents, so here's some free money for your education"?


I would prefer parents not pay for their children's education, but how would you govern that? Gov't stepping in to level playing fields across all races, nationalities, cultures, and creeds? sure, but reaching into the house and home? that's a bit too much.

*bird wrote:Uh, yeah, we said that Japan would be dominant in the 90s as well. How's that outlook doing? It may that


I drive a Japanese car, I play my Japanese game station on my Japanese TV. But what do I know? I was only in elementary school in the 90's when there were Japanese cartoons all over the TV
*bird wrote:Right, cause those "non-normal markers" (excuse the term) have no bearing on whether someone gets hired. And Asian Americans are viewed as well rounded leaders instead of being stereotyped as worker drones? This is why I think "not thinking about race anymore" is so awful - so many people don't even see the inequalities (or worse, think that being a minority is advantageous), and thus still perpetuate them.


(pardon any language)

Where the hell do you live that you're still seeing this shit? I grew up with a shit ton of Asians, who are currently excelling in college, or in post college careers (white collar, not blue collar). I work on a daily basis with black people that have the same work ethic and go through the same shit I do on a daily basis. I was taught by Arabs who came to this country to find a better opportunity for themselves and their families.

pardon my incredulity, but THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE PURPORTING IT TO BE.

Yes, in some areas, there is still progress to be made, individuals who are so rooted in their sense of superiority that they will remain racist 'til the day they die. those people are what we call "Lost Causes". Treat them how they should be treated, ignore them. if they wish to be so ignorant, leave them in their self made hell hole and they will either die there, or figure out they've been left behind and try to catch up.

I don't mean to offend with the all caps, but seriously, either I've got the rosiest glasses ever on, or you need to stop tunnel visioning on the negative.

Anecdotal evidence aside, can you provide any citations that different races are offered the same opportunities in the United States?
Here are a couple studies claiming the opposite:
[*]Study Finds Blacks Blocked From Southern Juries
[*]Teaching about Race and Ethnicity: Trying to Uncover White Privilege for a White Audience
The study has two people conducting routine activities, with one participant being white and the other black.
Some of our findings were more blatant examples of institutionalized racism. The apartment manager assured the white renter that there was enough propane to heat the apartment through the winter, while telling the black renter that he would have to pay $350 for the propane. The manager also told the white renter the apartment was available immediately yet told the black renter, who interviewed for the apartment before the white one, to call back "maybe in two days."

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby drkslvr » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

bvih wrote:Anecdotal evidence aside, can you provide any citations that different races are offered the same opportunities in the United States?

We shouldn't be looking at the opportunities afforded to "races," but to individuals. There may be a correlation, but there is such a huge amount of variation within each racial group that making judgments based on race is crazy. It's like the correlation between race and IQ. If you just look at averages, Asian American > European American > African American. But I'm pretty sure if you were to compare Ben Carson and William Hung, you would find that Ben Carson was smarter by about every possible measure. You can't stereotype people based on some idea of what is most common for any given race.
Spoiler:
Disclaimer: Many believe that IQ tests a biased, and this difference may represent bias in the test rather than difference between races. That doesn't affect what I'm saying here. My point isn't that one race is better. My point is that you can't trust stereotypes.
There may be areas of life where assessing the challenges facing any given individual are impossible. You brought up housing. I think that's a great example. But a the same time, it is possible, even easy, to see exactly what financial opportunities an individual has when they are going to college. There is no excuse for using race as a marker of need for scholarships.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Роберт » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

drkslvr wrote: There is no excuse for using race as a marker of need for scholarships.

The point is, because of racism, it is harder for X race to succeed than a white person. To help account for the fact the a person has more barriers to successfully graduate college just because they are black, there are other things put in place to help make it easier for blacks to graduate college. Why is that hard to understand? This is not a proxy for financial situation, it's in addition to financial situation.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby bvih » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:01 pm UTC

drkslvr wrote:
bvih wrote:Anecdotal evidence aside, can you provide any citations that different races are offered the same opportunities in the United States?

We shouldn't be looking at the opportunities afforded to "races," but to individuals. There may be a correlation, but there is such a huge amount of variation within each racial group that making judgments based on race is crazy. It's like the correlation between race and IQ. If you just look at averages, Asian American > European American > African American. But I'm pretty sure if you were to compare Ben Carson and William Hung, you would find that Ben Carson was smarter by about every possible measure. You can't stereotype people based on some idea of what is most common for any given race.
Spoiler:
Disclaimer: Many believe that IQ tests a biased, and this difference may represent bias in the test rather than difference between races. That doesn't affect what I'm saying here. My point isn't that one race is better. My point is that you can't trust stereotypes.
There may be areas of life where assessing the challenges facing any given individual are impossible. You brought up housing. I think that's a great example. But a the same time, it is possible, even easy, to see exactly what financial opportunities an individual has when they are going to college. There is no excuse for using race as a marker of need for scholarships.

The point is that individuals are disadvantaged because of their race. Unless you can support the argument that race does not play a significant role in what opportunities are afforded to an individual, I see no reason why race shouldn't be used as a criterion for scholarships. You say that the correlation between race and opportunities afforded is weak, back it up.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby drkslvr » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:55 pm UTC

bvih wrote:You say that the correlation between race and opportunities afforded is weak, back it up.

Actually, I don't say that. Read it again. I'm not questioning that there is a correlation, I'm pointing out that you can't apply stereotypes like that to individuals with any degree of accuracy. On average you'll be right, but in the majority of individual cases you'll be wrong, because most people aren't average.

I grew up in one of the wealthiest counties in the US. If you were to look at the average income of a white family from this county, it would approach twice the national average household income. However, if you were trying to get a sense of my college opportunities, looking at those numbers wouldn't tell you anything. I came from the other side of the tracks... literally. The other kids on my street were almost all hispanic, and my financial opportunities were much closer to theirs than to the average white kid from my county. Race was a bad indicator.

In most cases, you would be right to dismiss this as anecdotal evidence. That's exactly what it is. But when discussing stereotypes, you can't dismiss the fact that they're anecdotally wrong. On average, stereotypes are correct. But that doesn't mean we think it's morally right to stereotype people, because people aren't averages. They're individuals.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby bvih » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:42 pm UTC

drkslvr wrote:
bvih wrote:You say that the correlation between race and opportunities afforded is weak, back it up.

Actually, I don't say that. Read it again. I'm not questioning that there is a correlation, I'm pointing out that you can't apply stereotypes like that to individuals with any degree of accuracy. On average you'll be right, but in the majority of individual cases you'll be wrong, because most people aren't average.

I grew up in one of the wealthiest counties in the US. If you were to look at the average income of a white family from this county, it would approach twice the national average household income. However, if you were trying to get a sense of my college opportunities, looking at those numbers wouldn't tell you anything. I came from the other side of the tracks... literally. The other kids on my street were almost all hispanic, and my financial opportunities were much closer to theirs than to the average white kid from my county. Race was a bad indicator.

In most cases, you would be right to dismiss this as anecdotal evidence. That's exactly what it is. But when discussing stereotypes, you can't dismiss the fact that they're anecdotally wrong. On average, stereotypes are correct. But that doesn't mean we think it's morally right to stereotype people, because people aren't averages. They're individuals.

So what's the problem with race-based scholarships? One of the reasons they exist is as a means to offset the disadvantages one might have from being a minority. Note the word might, because while on an individual basis this doesn't matter, on a societal level it does. The scholarships aren't there to cater to any particular individual, but to address problems within society as a whole.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Ghona » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

I'll just leave this here.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby *bird » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:40 pm UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
*bird wrote:Uh, yeah, we said that Japan would be dominant in the 90s as well. How's that outlook doing? It may that


I drive a Japanese car, I play my Japanese game station on my Japanese TV. But what do I know? I was only in elementary school in the 90's when there were Japanese cartoons all over the TV


It's impossible for Japanese celebrities to break into America except through a tight niche, only a very specific subset of Japanese TV (and a "kiddie's genre" at that) is exposed outside the country, and those Japanese technological gadgets you mentioned? Stereotyped as "non-breakthrough", and that the Japanese can't really invent new technologies. Remember, I said "dominant", not "pseudo-parity (with a strong dash of 'oh they're so weird')".

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:
*bird wrote:Right, cause those "non-normal markers" (excuse the term) have no bearing on whether someone gets hired. And Asian Americans are viewed as well rounded leaders instead of being stereotyped as worker drones? This is why I think "not thinking about race anymore" is so awful - so many people don't even see the inequalities (or worse, think that being a minority is advantageous), and thus still perpetuate them.


Where the hell do you live that you're still seeing this shit? I grew up with a shit ton of Asians, who are currently excelling in college, or in post college careers (white collar, not blue collar). I work on a daily basis with black people that have the same work ethic and go through the same shit I do on a daily basis. I was taught by Arabs who came to this country to find a better opportunity for themselves and their families.

pardon my incredulity, but THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE PURPORTING IT TO BE.

Yes, in some areas, there is still progress to be made, individuals who are so rooted in their sense of superiority that they will remain racist 'til the day they die. those people are what we call "Lost Causes". Treat them how they should be treated, ignore them. if they wish to be so ignorant, leave them in their self made hell hole and they will either die there, or figure out they've been left behind and try to catch up.


Again, you think that racism is always overt, and only propagated by KKK like people. Neither is true. Even racial minorities can perpetuate racism against their own races - see this study, which looks at the perception of who should be leaders. These biases also manifest in height and other characteristics, but people believe they're being fair when they apply them. This makes it impossibly hard to ferret out.

Asians excel in college because they immigrated with a significant likelyhood to excel in college (most Asian immigrants in the US are either skilled workers or children of skilled workers - the groups that immigrated as refugees, like the Hmong or Laotians, have lots of problems). My use of "worker drone" did not preclude white collar occupations - I'm talking about the perception of leadership.

Humans are deeply flawed in their cognitive biases, which is why this shit needs to be pointed out - otherwise people wouldn't notice it at all in their daily interactions.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:44 pm UTC

bvih wrote:
drkslvr wrote:
bvih wrote:You say that the correlation between race and opportunities afforded is weak, back it up.

Actually, I don't say that. Read it again. I'm not questioning that there is a correlation, I'm pointing out that you can't apply stereotypes like that to individuals with any degree of accuracy. On average you'll be right, but in the majority of individual cases you'll be wrong, because most people aren't average.

I grew up in one of the wealthiest counties in the US. If you were to look at the average income of a white family from this county, it would approach twice the national average household income. However, if you were trying to get a sense of my college opportunities, looking at those numbers wouldn't tell you anything. I came from the other side of the tracks... literally. The other kids on my street were almost all hispanic, and my financial opportunities were much closer to theirs than to the average white kid from my county. Race was a bad indicator.

In most cases, you would be right to dismiss this as anecdotal evidence. That's exactly what it is. But when discussing stereotypes, you can't dismiss the fact that they're anecdotally wrong. On average, stereotypes are correct. But that doesn't mean we think it's morally right to stereotype people, because people aren't averages. They're individuals.

So what's the problem with race-based scholarships? One of the reasons they exist is as a means to offset the disadvantages one might have from being a minority. Note the word might, because while on an individual basis this doesn't matter, on a societal level it does. The scholarships aren't there to cater to any particular individual, but to address problems within society as a whole.

The problem is that, on average, they help members of the minority who didn't actually have the disadvantage. As stated further up in this thread, the biggest beneficiaries of targeted scholarships and affirmative action programs are... (dun duh-duh DUUN!) white middle-class females.

As others have noted, this has led to a society in which you can be of any color, creed, gender or orientation you like and still achieve massive success, so long as you're an upper-middle-class, status-anxious, college educated, white San Franciscan on the inside.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby bvih » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:The problem is that, on average, they help members of the minority who didn't actually have the disadvantage. As stated further up in this thread, the biggest beneficiaries of targeted scholarships and affirmative action programs are... (dun duh-duh DUUN!) white middle-class females.

As others have noted, this has led to a society in which you can be of any color, creed, gender or orientation you like and still achieve massive success, so long as you're an upper-middle-class, status-anxious, college educated, white San Franciscan on the inside.


Citation please. Also, I already knew that women are the largest benefactors of affirmative action, although I'd also like a source for when you say it's white middle-class women who are the greatest benefactors.

I also don't quite understand what your point is in your second paragraph, can you elaborate?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Lucrece » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:42 am UTC

When people start talking about how they see their happy Benetton ad environments as opposed to racial tension, I gotta wonder if they've ever visited parts of Indiana, Alabama, Kansas-- heck, Georgia (which has a pretty large African American population), let alone Chicago (a place still deeply entrenched in cultural tension with clear divisions).

There are parts of Indiana where I no longer became surprised if I saw some white trash with swastikas and blood crosses crossing the aisles in Walmart.

Heck, even in hippie cities like Amherst, Massachusetts I recall college students looking at me bemused as I spoke in Spanish on my cellphone, given how the only ethnicity they were aware of were blacks, Hispanics ( second, third wave non-Spanish speaking--who they treated as honorary blacks), and Asians (no geographical distinctions made, were treated as honorary whites).

In Miami, FL -- it's ethnic tension between Hispanic immigrants and black communities, while the white communities have moved up north or reside in isolated upper class communities.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Cathy » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:26 am UTC

The targeted scholarships I've applied to as a white, middle-class (parents) female have 100% declined me because according to FAFSA, my family writes me a check for $40,000 a year in living expenses. Which they don't. Their offer for college money came with so many strings [we have 100% of your passwords, pin numbers, and control over your social life] I have little chance but to accept my non-subsidized government debt.

So unless they're over 26 years of age, have a child, are married (to someone with low enough income to count as "in financial need", or in the military, it seems a little weird that all these white middle-class females are getting targeted scholarships.

Most of the "women in science" scholarships at my school go to asian or hispanic women. I don't begrudge them this, I actually think FAFSA needs to change some of this crap about under-26-with-no-money-and-shitty-family.
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