Osama bin Laden is Dead

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IcedT
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:40 am UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:
IcedT wrote:My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.
Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.

I think we can agree on this much. It's never a good thing, but in some cases it's a lot better than the alternatives. My complaint is mostly with the people who incessantly rail against the military without offering a better alternative.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:42 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale nearly.

I don't know that the actions of our more amoral contractors (incidentally wealthy with our tax money) currently over there, allow us to say that easily.


I think the actions of the Al Qaeda members who have forced children to don explosive vests does allow us to say that easily.


I think that any worldview that encourages you to see your folk as unequivocally "good" and some other group as "evil" when you're both holding guns is dangerous.

So I'm going to go with "no, still not." With a side of "Do you really want to hear the worst stories from KBR and Blackwater?"
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:43 am UTC

An action...taken by the military...or, in the common vernacular, a military action.

"All" was the word used. I pointed out one example of it being wrong.

So...maybe you need less rage?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:44 am UTC

Because this thread needs to be less serious, here's business reviews of Osama's hideout on google maps.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:45 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:An action...taken by the military...or, in the common vernacular, a military action.


Dude, semantics. He obviously meant violent military action.

Obviously, the weekly base poker game, despite being carried out by military personnel, is still not unethical. Unless you lost, then it's awful.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:46 am UTC

Belial wrote:I think that any worldview that encourages you to see your folk as unequivocally "good" and some other group as "evil" when you're both holding guns is dangerous.

So I'm going to go with "no, still not." With a side of "Do you really want to hear the worst stories from KBR and Blackwater?"

I know this is mostly a futile exercise because you've yet to reply to any of my responses, but... do you say that because one group can't be good and the other can't be evil, or just because it's dangerous for any one side to think they're the good one? Can the danger ever be worth it?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:46 am UTC

Semantics are the soul of the law.

AND I AM THE LAW!
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:46 am UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.

The phrase "necessary evil" never made sense to me. If something is necessary, it can't be evil. If something is evil it can't be necessary. When there is only one option there isn't good v. evil, there's a single option. For good and evil decisions to exist implies that a decision needs to be made.
Last edited by Dark567 on Mon May 02, 2011 4:50 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:47 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.
The phrase necessary evil never made sense to me. If something is necessary, it can't be evil. If something is evil it can't be necessary. When there is only one option there isn't good v. evil, theirs a single option. For good and evil decisions to exist implies that a decision needs to be made.
It's just a semantic thing. Means "I don't like it, but I do like it better than my other options." Simple as that.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:48 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.
The phrase necessary evil never made sense to me. If something is necessary, it can't be evil. If something is evil it can't be necessary. When there is only one option there isn't good v. evil, theirs a single option. For good and evil decisions to exist implies that a decision needs to be made.

It is an interesting phrase. Something like a "necessary sadness" or whatever would make more sense.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby TheAmazingRando » Mon May 02, 2011 4:49 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:
IcedT wrote:My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.
Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.


So...sending the USS Hope to Indonesia after the tsunami...unethical. K.
Yeah, I meant violent military action. I think the military doing humanitarian things is awesome.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ++$_ » Mon May 02, 2011 4:51 am UTC

This means the troops can come home now, right?

...right?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Levi » Mon May 02, 2011 4:51 am UTC


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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:51 am UTC

IcedT wrote:I know this is mostly a futile exercise because you've yet to reply to any of my responses, but... do you say that because one group can't be good and the other can't be evil, or just because it's dangerous for any one side to think they're the good one? Can the danger ever be worth it?


Around the time you start killing folk you've pretty much lost the ability to claim to be the paragon of untarnished good. After that, it's just hoping to be the lightest shade of grey possible, and that's a game you can lose fast if you start telling yourself how awesome you are.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:52 am UTC

Levi wrote:Relevant.

Beat you too it
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Levi » Mon May 02, 2011 4:53 am UTC

Oh darn. That'll teach me to pay more attention while skimming.
Last edited by Levi on Mon May 02, 2011 4:53 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

IcedT
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:53 am UTC

Belial wrote:
IcedT wrote:I know this is mostly a futile exercise because you've yet to reply to any of my responses, but... do you say that because one group can't be good and the other can't be evil, or just because it's dangerous for any one side to think they're the good one? Can the danger ever be worth it?


Around the time you start killing folk you've pretty much lost the ability to claim to be the paragon of untarnished good. After that, it's just hoping to be the lightest shade of grey possible, and that's a game you can lose fast if you start telling yourself how awesome you are.
Then we're in agreement there, it's a morally ambiguous business and it's not hard to slip up and start doing things you shouldn't.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon May 02, 2011 4:54 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:An action...taken by the military...or, in the common vernacular, a military action.

In the common vernacular (which is the only vernacular, no?), "military action" does not mean "anything done by the military."

IcedT wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.
The phrase necessary evil never made sense to me. If something is necessary, it can't be evil. If something is evil it can't be necessary. When there is only one option there isn't good v. evil, theirs a single option. For good and evil decisions to exist implies that a decision needs to be made.
It's just a semantic thing. Means "I don't like it, but I do like it better than my other options." Simple as that.

"Evil" has a different meaning when used in that idiom, but what about "unethical"? Generally it doesn't make sense to say that something is unconditionally wrong and then say that it needs to be done.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:54 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
sje46 wrote:
thorgold wrote:
Joeldi wrote:So you're all celebrating that someone was killed. Not brought to trial, not given a chance to answer for his crimes, just off handedly killed in a bomb attack. Whatever happened to being better than the enemy?

Once your kill count passes the triple digits, you pretty much forfeit your rights. Quick death is us being the better person - I'd have prefered to see him rot a few decades in solitary.
No, nothing should forfeit your rights. I don't care if you killed 60 million people. Rights are rights.


Not true. Does a serial murderer have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or property if you like the original Locke)"? If somebody is violently attacking me, at least while this is going on, does he have the right to bodily safety?

A serial murder has the right to a fair trial. I mean, yeah I get that Osama wasn't an American citizen, but these rights are supposed to be universal. *All* suspected criminals deserve a fair trial. The reasoning for this is in case they are actually not guilty. Most of their rights are taken after they're in prison.
Izawwlgood wrote:Sure, except Osama is a wanted known terrorist. His rights do not include 'live peacefully at a beach side villa sans US military knocking on his door'.
Can you explain to me how this isn't a false dichotomy?

My point is that saying "Yeah, criminals should have the right to a fair trial, but not if they killed over 99 people." is arbitrary and disastrous for all human rights. You can't make exceptions, no matter how heinous the crime is.

Not that I think that's particularly relevant in this case...Osama was (presumably) killed in combat...it's not like he was outright assassinated after he was captured. But still..I'm only addressing the abhorrent sentiment that he doesn't deserve rights because he's an especially bad criminal.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby iamevn » Mon May 02, 2011 4:56 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Because this thread needs to be less serious, here's business reviews of Osama's hideout on google maps.


is that where he was? huh I wasn't picturing such a...residential area. oh well

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon May 02, 2011 4:57 am UTC

Belial wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale nearly.

I don't know that the actions of our more amoral contractors (incidentally wealthy with our tax money) currently over there, allow us to say that easily.


I think the actions of the Al Qaeda members who have forced children to don explosive vests does allow us to say that easily.


I think that any worldview that encourages you to see your folk as unequivocally "good" and some other group as "evil" when you're both holding guns is dangerous.

So I'm going to go with "no, still not."


I'm not sure that saying one group is nearly the moral opposite of another is the same as saying one is unequivocally good and the other evil.

Belial wrote:With a side of "Do you really want to hear the worst stories from KBR and Blackwater?"



No, mostly because I don't want to wade through all the stories of Al Qaeda/Taliban affiliated extremists killing and raping children to counter them. That's an argument no one wins.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:58 am UTC

Why don't you go back to listing the days of the week.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:58 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:In the common vernacular (which is the only vernacular, no?), "military action" does not mean "anything done by the military."


Though, if you happen to be of the "camouflage and medal-wearing" persuasion, it does make a great euphemism.

"I gotta go carry out a wicked military action in the john"

"I was in your mom's room all night committing to a series of extended military actions"
EdgarJPublius wrote:No, mostly because I don't want to wade through all the stories of Al Qaeda/Taliban affiliated extremists killing and raping children to counter them. That's an argument no one wins.


Congrats, you found my point.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon May 02, 2011 5:00 am UTC

I agree with sje46 wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon May 02, 2011 5:02 am UTC

Belial wrote:"I was in your mom's room all night committing to a series of extended military actions"
EdgarJPublius wrote:No, mostly because I don't want to wade through all the stories of Al Qaeda/Taliban affiliated extremists killing and raping children to counter them. That's an argument no one wins.


Congrats, you found my point.


unfortunately I think you rather missed mine.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon May 02, 2011 5:05 am UTC

What was your point?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby JonScholar » Mon May 02, 2011 5:08 am UTC

I'm sure the press will be talking about this for weeks, but really... who cares? Osama Bin Laden's death will mean little in the long run. Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Yemen however, will remain devastated by the military campaigns that were waged under the justification of exterminating him and his organization.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 5:09 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:What was your point?

How awesome I am. :wink:

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 5:13 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:I'm sure the press will be talking about this for weeks, but really... who cares? Osama Bin Laden's death will mean little in the long run. Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Yemen however, will remain devastated by the military campaigns that were waged under the justification of exterminating him and his organization.


I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon May 02, 2011 5:14 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:What was your point?


Well, the point of the bit Belial quoted was that reading about child rape is not very pleasant.

My broader point is that I don't think it's appropriate to draw moral equivalencies between a developed nation with a space program and terrorists who rape children and force them on suicide bombings.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 5:15 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.

That's justice? Nice.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Also, I think your title should be "colossus", and I don't care if nobody agrees.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 5:16 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.

That's justice? Nice.


True, it really isn't sufficient. Decades in solitary confinement would be real justice, but in lieu of that this will do.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon May 02, 2011 5:16 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
JonScholar wrote:I'm sure the press will be talking about this for weeks, but really... who cares? Osama Bin Laden's death will mean little in the long run. Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Yemen however, will remain devastated by the military campaigns that were waged under the justification of exterminating him and his organization.


I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.

He was killed, not brought to justice.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby JonScholar » Mon May 02, 2011 5:18 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.


Yes, because being "brought to justice" is getting assassinated without a trial

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 5:18 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
JonScholar wrote:I'm sure the press will be talking about this for weeks, but really... who cares? Osama Bin Laden's death will mean little in the long run. Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Yemen however, will remain devastated by the military campaigns that were waged under the justification of exterminating him and his organization.


I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.

He was killed, not brought to justice.

Because, as Fox News knows, it's not justice without waterboarding.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 5:18 am UTC

I agree with those other people that corrected you.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Also, I think your title should be "colossus", and I don't care if nobody agrees.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 5:21 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.


Yes, because being "brought to justice" is getting assassinated without a trial

You don't try combatants. That's not realistic. So yes, in this case it is. That guy deserves whatever he gets. The worse we can give to him the closer to justice we get.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 5:23 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:That guy deserves whatever he gets. The worse we can give to him the closer to justice we get.

So torturing him is ok? Why? What purpose does this vindictiveness serve? Who does it make better? Does it make other people less likely to follow in his footsteps? Quite the opposite.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Also, I think your title should be "colossus", and I don't care if nobody agrees.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 5:25 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:That guy deserves whatever he gets. The worse we can give to him the closer to justice we get.

So torturing him is ok? Why? What purpose does this vindictiveness serve? Who does it make better? Does it make other people less likely to follow in his footsteps? Quite te opposite.


And you're missing me point. I'm not saying it's something we need to do or something we should do or even something that would help the world, but it is something he deserves.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:26 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
JonScholar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.


Yes, because being "brought to justice" is getting assassinated without a trial

You don't try combatants. That's not realistic. So yes, in this case it is. That guy deserves whatever he gets. The worse we can give to him the closer to justice we get.

Justice is not equivalent to vengeance. Are we still in the middle ages? The fact that he was killed in combat is irrelevant. That isn't bringing him to justice...it's bringing him to death. I'm not saying that his death in this case was particularly *wrong* because I don't know what surrounded him. But you're saying that his death was a case of justice being served. But what happened has absolutely nothing to do with justice. It was just something that happened. It may have been a good thing that happened, but it still has nothing to do with a justice system.
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