Osama bin Laden is Dead

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 am UTC

Sorry, everyone was going on about "I don't think"...I went Mandy Patinkin on us.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 5:53 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:"This thing would be just, but I don't think it should be done" is what you are saying.


No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "this thing would be just, but I don't think we should do it."

That's just as inconsistent!

And the word is truisms. It's where you hold things to be self evident. You seem to do it a lot.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 5:53 am UTC

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 02, 2011 5:54 am UTC

Enemy combatants are not arrested one-by-one and given a trial. There's no need to, and it's still considered justice.

killing enemy combatants in general is not considered 'justice'. It's considered as warfare, where killing the enemy is an unavoidable aspect, not an ethical goal in itself. Being an enemy is not an unethical thing in itself, and killing enemies is not a form of justice.

The argument against bin Laden is that he is not just an enemy combatant, but also a criminal, someone who did things beyond the actions permitted to enemy combatants.

Edit holy crap this thread moves fast

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 5:55 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:"This thing would be just, but I don't think it should be done" is what you are saying.


No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "this thing would be just, but I don't think we should do it."

That's just as inconsistent!


Not at all. In fact, the concept of vigilantism is based on that sentence. Should a murderer be thrown in jail? Sure. Should I be able to capture him with my batarang and put him in my bat-jail? Nope.


And the word is truisms. It's where you hold things to be self evident. You seem to do it a lot.

I know, but it was a truism (punishment proportional to crime) that I though we could agree on, and I think podbaydoor said something about "based on triusms that gather creditability in this thread"
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Tiny Kabuto » Mon May 02, 2011 5:57 am UTC

From what I've heard, Bin Laden fired back. This could be a lie on the part of the government but, if it is the case, I think killing him instead of capturing him was justified.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 5:59 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "this thing would be just, but I don't think we should do it."

That's just as inconsistent!

Not at all. In fact, the concept of vigilantism is based on that sentence. Should a murderer be thrown in jail? Sure. Should I be able to capture him with my batarang and put him in my bat-jail? Nope.

Right, so it would be vigilantism to capture him and justice for the US to capture him, and it's close to justice but perfectly acceptable to kill him on another nation's territory, possibly without their permition. I'm fairly sure you don't actually know what you're saying.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 6:01 am UTC

This post intentionally left blank.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:02 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "this thing would be just, but I don't think we should do it."

That's just as inconsistent!

Not at all. In fact, the concept of vigilantism is based on that sentence. Should a murderer be thrown in jail? Sure. Should I be able to capture him with my batarang and put him in my bat-jail? Nope.

Right, so it would be vigilantism to capture him and justice for the US to capture him, and it's close to justice but perfectly acceptable to kill him on another nation's territory, possibly without their permition. I'm fairly sure you don't actually know what you're saying.


It would be vigilantism for me to capture him but not for the US government to. It's the army's job to defend the US from foreign militants, not mine. Similarly, it would be vigilantism for the US government (or anybody) to torture him, but it would be fine if he were tortured. It's nobody's job to torture Osama, just to defend us from him.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby H2SO4 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:04 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

Jahoclave wrote:I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.

Case in point. Holier-than-thou attitude with an indisputable statement. Not necessarily because it's true, but because we don't have any way of proving otherwise. This leads to people stroking their e-peens while attacking the "wrong-doers" any chance they get.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 6:05 am UTC

/b/'s having a field day with this.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 02, 2011 6:05 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:It would be vigilantism for me to capture him but not for the US government to. It's the army's job to defend the US from foreign militants, not mine. Similarly, it would be vigilantism for the US government (or anybody) to torture him, but it would be fine if he were tortured. It's nobody's job to torture Osama, just to defend us from him.

Actually it's not fine if he were tortured. Civilised nations agreed that there is a baseline level of rights to which all humans are entitled to, regardless of their crimes.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:07 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:It would be vigilantism for me to capture him but not for the US government to. It's the army's job to defend the US from foreign militants, not mine. Similarly, it would be vigilantism for the US government (or anybody) to torture him, but it would be fine if he were tortured. It's nobody's job to torture Osama, just to defend us from him.

Actually it's not fine if he were tortured. Civilised nations agreed that there is a baseline level of rights to which all humans are entitled to, regardless of their crimes.


This document was created with the knowledge that one has to perform an action for that action to be performed. Meaning that people have rights when applied to actions with other people. And I agree. This is why we shouldn't torture him. However, if he were to be tortured, for example through some natural event, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 6:08 am UTC

Thank you Baghdad, good night!
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 6:09 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:It would be vigilantism for me to capture him but not for the US government to. It's the army's job to defend the US from foreign militants, not mine. Similarly, it would be vigilantism for the US government (or anybody) to torture him, but it would be fine if he were tortured. It's nobody's job to torture Osama, just to defend us from him.

Ok. I still think you're wrong about a whole host of things, but I suppose you're internally consistent.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:09 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:It would be vigilantism for me to capture him but not for the US government to. It's the army's job to defend the US from foreign militants, not mine. Similarly, it would be vigilantism for the US government (or anybody) to torture him, but it would be fine if he were tortured. It's nobody's job to torture Osama, just to defend us from him.

Ok. I still think you're wrong about a whole host of things, but I suppose you're internally consistent.

Like what?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:11 am UTC

Tiny Kabuto wrote:From what I've heard, Bin Laden fired back. This could be a lie on the part of the government but, if it is the case, I think killing him instead of capturing him was justified.

Which is a different case than he had it coming. Yes, it was justified for the soldiers in the combat situation to fire back. That is, however, not what sour is arguing.

H2SO4 wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

Jahoclave wrote:I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.

Case in point. Holier-than-thou attitude with an indisputable statement. Not necessarily because it's true, but because we don't have any way of proving otherwise. This leads to people stroking their e-peens while attacking the "wrong-doers" any chance they get.

Which, given that we already did explain the position makes your point mute. And sometimes, some people are just naturally better than others. Life is like that. After all, my constructed social ethic proves that I am better at being a caring human being than sour. It's just that simple. /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crated nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Deva » Mon May 02, 2011 6:12 am UTC

Will probably regret jumping into this at all, but
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:nobody deserves to die.

sourmilk wrote:I'm saying "he got what he deserved."

seems to be at the heart of this. To paraphrase a quote I heard that was already paraphrased,
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May have to agree to disagree soon/now, as much as it may gall both sides.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:12 am UTC

Grav wrote:
sje46 wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
JonScholar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I gain a lot of satisfaction from seeing one of the most horrible men on earth brought to justice.


Yes, because being "brought to justice" is getting assassinated without a trial

You don't try combatants. That's not realistic. So yes, in this case it is. That guy deserves whatever he gets. The worse we can give to him the closer to justice we get.

Justice is not equivalent to vengeance. Are we still in the middle ages? The fact that he was killed in combat is irrelevant. That isn't bringing him to justice...it's bringing him to death. I'm not saying that his death in this case was particularly *wrong* because I don't know what surrounded him. But you're saying that his death was a case of justice being served. But what happened has absolutely nothing to do with justice. It was just something that happened. It may have been a good thing that happened, but it still has nothing to do with a justice system.


You don't have to subscribe to a government sanctioned justice system for it to be justice, the government does not own the definition of justice. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice definition #3 seems to apply just fine to most people in this particular circumstance.

I'm referring to any system that treats all alleged criminals equally, without regard to what people feel like the criminals deserve. A system of justice. Not necessarily a government system.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 02, 2011 6:15 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:This document was created with the knowledge that one has to perform an action for that action to be performed. Meaning that people have rights when applied to actions with other people. And I agree. This is why we shouldn't torture him. However, if he were to be tortured, for example through some natural event, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Because clearly this thread is about that time El Niño waterboarded someone.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Grav » Mon May 02, 2011 6:15 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Tiny Kabuto wrote:From what I've heard, Bin Laden fired back. This could be a lie on the part of the government but, if it is the case, I think killing him instead of capturing him was justified.

Which is a different case than he had it coming. Yes, it was justified for the soldiers in the combat situation to fire back. That is, however, not what sour is arguing.

H2SO4 wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

Jahoclave wrote:I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.

Case in point. Holier-than-thou attitude with an indisputable statement. Not necessarily because it's true, but because we don't have any way of proving otherwise. This leads to people stroking their e-peens while attacking the "wrong-doers" any chance they get.

Which, given that we already did explain the position makes your point mute. And sometimes, some people are just naturally better than others. Life is like that. After all, my constructed social ethic proves that I am better at being a caring human being than sour. It's just that simple. /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crated nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

Someone killed my family, I shouldn't seek revenge and kill the person who did it. That would be wrong. The only justice is government sanctioned justice! I should wait until the perpetrator is captured and cross my fingers they are found guilty. That is the only justice! Yes! You are the light! Thank you for making me realize there is no justice but your perspective on justice! Eff the actual definition! /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crafted nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:16 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:This document was created with the knowledge that one has to perform an action for that action to be performed. Meaning that people have rights when applied to actions with other people. And I agree. This is why we shouldn't torture him. However, if he were to be tortured, for example through some natural event, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Because clearly this thread is about that time El Niño waterboarded someone.

It's about whether or not Osama got what he deserved.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 6:17 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Like what?

In this thread mostly just Osama deserving to be tortured and Osama being the most evil man in the world (or close to), but I'm sure there are others.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:19 am UTC

Grav wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Tiny Kabuto wrote:From what I've heard, Bin Laden fired back. This could be a lie on the part of the government but, if it is the case, I think killing him instead of capturing him was justified.

Which is a different case than he had it coming. Yes, it was justified for the soldiers in the combat situation to fire back. That is, however, not what sour is arguing.

H2SO4 wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

Jahoclave wrote:I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.

Case in point. Holier-than-thou attitude with an indisputable statement. Not necessarily because it's true, but because we don't have any way of proving otherwise. This leads to people stroking their e-peens while attacking the "wrong-doers" any chance they get.

Which, given that we already did explain the position makes your point mute. And sometimes, some people are just naturally better than others. Life is like that. After all, my constructed social ethic proves that I am better at being a caring human being than sour. It's just that simple. /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crated nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

Someone killed my family, I shouldn't seek revenge and kill the person who did it. That would be wrong. The only justice is government sanctioned justice! I should wait until the perpetrator is captured and cross my fingers they are found guilty. That is the only justice! Yes! You are the light! Thank you for making me realize there is no justice but your perspective on justice! Eff the actual definition! /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crafted nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

What ya know. I was right.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:19 am UTC

Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Like what?

In this thread mostly just Osama deserving to be tortured

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? Yeah.

and Osama being the most evil man in the world (or close to), but I'm sure there are others.

I said "one of the most evil men." That is an accurate statement. Unless you can think of a million men more evil than Osama.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Grav » Mon May 02, 2011 6:20 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Grav wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Tiny Kabuto wrote:From what I've heard, Bin Laden fired back. This could be a lie on the part of the government but, if it is the case, I think killing him instead of capturing him was justified.

Which is a different case than he had it coming. Yes, it was justified for the soldiers in the combat situation to fire back. That is, however, not what sour is arguing.

H2SO4 wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

Jahoclave wrote:I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.

Case in point. Holier-than-thou attitude with an indisputable statement. Not necessarily because it's true, but because we don't have any way of proving otherwise. This leads to people stroking their e-peens while attacking the "wrong-doers" any chance they get.

Which, given that we already did explain the position makes your point mute. And sometimes, some people are just naturally better than others. Life is like that. After all, my constructed social ethic proves that I am better at being a caring human being than sour. It's just that simple. /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crated nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

Someone killed my family, I shouldn't seek revenge and kill the person who did it. That would be wrong. The only justice is government sanctioned justice! I should wait until the perpetrator is captured and cross my fingers they are found guilty. That is the only justice! Yes! You are the light! Thank you for making me realize there is no justice but your perspective on justice! Eff the actual definition! /hopefully you're able to discern the carefully crafted nuance in that statement, but I doubt it, which will inevitably result in you missing the point and making another statement that won't, in fact, contradict my position.

What ya know. I was right.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 02, 2011 6:20 am UTC

Not helpful.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:21 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I said "one of the most evil men." That is an accurate statement. Unless you can think of a million men more evil than Osama.

I think your value judgment of evil is inherently a fucked way of looking at the world. It's also an anti-debate term. But I'm sure that killing an evil man will likely solve the issues that actually drive citizens, people, and human of the middle east towards terrorist actions against the Western world. Yep. Calling them evil sure helped us solve that terrorist problem. But, at least that means we get to shroud everything we do in the nice shiny banner of us being the good guys.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 6:22 am UTC

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? Yeah.

But can't you see that this is a fundamentally subjective? I disagree with your system of morals here.


I don't believe in evil people, which is not something I particularly feel we can discuss here, but yeah.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ElectricHaze » Mon May 02, 2011 6:24 am UTC

If anyone is interested. I took some pics of the reaction in the streets around Penn State. I don't have a good setup for taking photos at night, but I figured I would go out and try.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jk4p/sets/ ... 679042832/
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Save Point » Mon May 02, 2011 6:24 am UTC

Mostly emotional response here, but I started drinking and hung up my US flag, which was in retirement because I thought it was a bit much with my US flag pillows on the couch. Oh well, I'm no Martha Stewart.

Generally speaking, I abhor any kind of unilateral decision to determine what the appropriate sentence is for one's wrongs. But I also recognize that it's a flaw to compare my ideal situation - a world where there is (a) an agreed upon rule of law in the international arena that is; (b) easily, or more feasibly, applied in said arena - with a less optimistic reality. In this case, yeah, I would have liked Bin Laden to be hauled in, tried, and convicted. I would like to turn back the clock and fight against a disproportionate military and legislative response to 9/11. But I can't, and ultimately today could have gone one of two ways: it's May 1, 2011, and all of the nastiness preceding tonight still exists and Bin Laden is alive, or; it's May 1, 2011, and all the nastiness preceding tonight still exists and Bin Laden is dead, with the aforementioned qualifications. Latter's better in my book.

I do hope that folks use this as a reason to reflect on some of the stupid shit that came out of the past ten years, but I don't think that's mutually exclusive to finding relief in Bin Laden's death.

EDIT: I also think that there's no reason to believe that celebration of his death should be conflated with any delusions that this changes things dramatically in terms of US foreign policy.
Last edited by Save Point on Mon May 02, 2011 6:28 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby hanecter » Mon May 02, 2011 6:25 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Like what?

In this thread mostly just Osama deserving to be tortured

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? Yeah.

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? No.

I can play this game too.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:26 am UTC

hanecter wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Viae wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Like what?

In this thread mostly just Osama deserving to be tortured

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? Yeah.

For funding the torture, death, rape, etc. of thousands? No.

I can play this game too.

For not using union labor to torture, kill, rape, etc. of thousands? Maybe.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:27 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I said "one of the most evil men." That is an accurate statement. Unless you can think of a million men more evil than Osama.

I think your value judgment of evil is inherently a fucked way of looking at the world. It's also an anti-debate term.

If you believe that any sort of morality exists then you have to believe that evil exists. It is simply one end of the scale.

But I'm sure that killing an evil man will likely solve the issues that actually drive citizens, people, and human of the middle east towards terrorist actions against the Western world. Yep. Calling them evil sure helped us solve that terrorist problem. But, at least that means we get to shroud everything we do in the nice shiny banner of us being the good guys.

I never said anything contradicting any of this.

Viae wrote:But can't you see that this is a fundamentally subjective? I disagree with your system of morals here.


Well yes, it's subjective, but come on, there's surely a point at which a judgement is unreasonable. Like, somebody who is responsible for killing and torturing thousands of people is objectively a very, very, very bad person.

I don't believe in evil people


What do you mean by this? If there are people who consistently do very bad things, does that not make them evil?

hanecter wrote:
I can play this game too.



Yes, you're very creative. But seriously, there's a point at which I really expect us to agree upon something, like causing the deaths and torture of thousands of people is the worst except for causing the deaths and torture of more people.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby M.C. » Mon May 02, 2011 6:28 am UTC

Meanwhile, in the real world, nothing continued to happen.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 6:29 am UTC

What do you mean by this? If there are people who consistently do very bad things, does that not make them evil?

I said I didn't especially want to discuss it, but no, basically. I can draw my ethics and morals up for you in PM if that's what you'd really like.

Also, the leap to "bad people deserve to be tortured" is certainly not self evident and so forth.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ++$_ » Mon May 02, 2011 6:29 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Well yes, it's subjective, but come on, there's surely a point at which a judgement is unreasonable. Like, somebody who is responsible for killing and torturing thousands of people is objectively a very, very, very bad person.
What the fuck does this have to do with whether that person should be tortured or not?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 6:30 am UTC

Viae wrote:
What do you mean by this? If there are people who consistently do very bad things, does that not make them evil?

I said I didn't especially want to discuss it, but no, basically. I can draw my ethics and morals up for you in PM if that's what you'd really like.

Sure, if it doesn't bother you.

Also, the leap to "bad people deserve to be tortured" is certainly not self evident and so forth.

Right, I was explaining that as a derivative of "punishment should be proportional to the enormity of the crime committed" which, while maybe not self-evident, is something I think we can agree on.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:30 am UTC

After Theory by Terry Eagleton. Please read, particularly the section on morality. You're welcome for me helping you understand the issue you're having at a foundational level.

It might also help to read the whole book, but it should at least clear up the problem you're having with out statements about the non-existence of evil.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 02, 2011 6:32 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You sicken me.

I don't think you're grasping the enormity of his crimes.

I don't think you're grasping the inhumanity of your position.


I really don't see how. I think we agree that a just punishment (whether or not one has the right to carry it out) should be in some way proportional to the crime. By even the most lenient proportional constant, this guy deserves anything I can think of.


George Bush is responsible for probably ~100x as many civilian deaths as Bin Laden is. Many of these (say, all Iraqi deaths) are the result of an illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the United States or its allies. Would you then agree, based on your moral system, that George Bush deserves to die? To be tortured?


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