Osama bin Laden is Dead

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hanecter
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby hanecter » Mon May 02, 2011 6:34 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Yes, you're very creative. But seriously, there's a point at which I really expect us to agree upon something, like causing the deaths and torture of thousands of people is the worst except for causing the deaths and torture of more people.

I agree.

But I don't see your point- that doesn't mean that bin Laden deserves to be killed or tortured.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby H2SO4 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:35 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:George Bush is responsible for probably ~100x as many civilian deaths as Bin Laden is.

[citation needed]
LaserGuy wrote:Many of these (say, all Iraqi deaths) are the result of an illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the United States or its allies.

Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 02, 2011 6:37 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:George Bush is responsible for probably ~100x as many civilian deaths as Bin Laden is.

[citation needed]
LaserGuy wrote:Many of these (say, all Iraqi deaths) are the result of an illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the United States or its allies.

Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]

Wait, the burden of proof is on those who think nations don't pose a threat to our own? And before then, we can invade, right?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby s0merand0mdude » Mon May 02, 2011 6:40 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Because he killed people him getting killed is equitable justified = vengeance based.


Not quite. Vengeance based would be "Because he killed people it's okay for us to kill him." For the record, yes, killing in self-defense is justified.

Because he's firing a gun in a gunfight and the people he was firing it at shot him dead is not the same as, because he killed people in an indirect act ten years ago he now deserves to be killed in self-defense. You're either arguing one of the two and it's not the former.


Actually, the argument stands, and here's why: The US Military probably didn't go in thinking "capture", but if Osama had been lying on his bed when they came in, they probably would have taken him and put him on trial, leading to an execution similar to Saddam Hussein's. But, he wasn't lying on his bed; he was firing on the soldiers. So he was killed in self-defense. It's similar to the case of the drug-dealer who gets killed during a raid since he had a gun in his hand.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dobblesworth » Mon May 02, 2011 6:45 am UTC

I'm just waiting on the inevitable tape sent to Al-Jazeera where he taunts the West in saying they only killed a decoy. Looking at alleged images shown from Pakistani news channels, it's hard getting a conclusive opinion looking at a bloodied corpse, shot in the head, when you're running off source images 5-10 years old.

But if we're right, then I hope there's some tremendous catharsis for those who needed it.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby SummerGlauFan » Mon May 02, 2011 6:47 am UTC

s0merand0mdude wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Because he killed people him getting killed is equitable justified = vengeance based.


Not quite. Vengeance based would be "Because he killed people it's okay for us to kill him." For the record, yes, killing in self-defense is justified.

Because he's firing a gun in a gunfight and the people he was firing it at shot him dead is not the same as, because he killed people in an indirect act ten years ago he now deserves to be killed in self-defense. You're either arguing one of the two and it's not the former.


Actually, the argument stands, and here's why: The US Military probably didn't go in thinking "capture", but if Osama had been lying on his bed when they came in, they probably would have taken him and put him on trial, leading to an execution similar to Saddam Hussein's. But, he wasn't lying on his bed; he was firing on the soldiers. So he was killed in self-defense. It's similar to the case of the drug-dealer who gets killed during a raid since he had a gun in his hand.


In addition to that, he's a leading figure in a force we are at war with. Taking out the leadership of an enemy force during a war is justifiable, methinks.

@Dobblesworth (you ninja): I heard on the boob-tube that U.S. forces had conducted genetic tests on his body to confirm his identity.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby H2SO4 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:52 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:Wait, the burden of proof is on those who think nations don't pose a threat to our own? And before then, we can invade, right?

No. Actually, with the information we had at the time, we determined that Iraq was in violation of the ceasefire we had with them back in 1990. The UN recognized it 10 times and did nothing, so Bush, the unpopular guy that he was(/is), decided he had to do something to enforce the ceasefire because the UN was too incompetent to. This resulted in Shock and Awe and then the invasion.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:54 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:immoral

Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]

Exactly the same problem with the pronouncement of Osama as evil. Thank you for proving the point.

s0merand0mdude wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Because he killed people him getting killed is equitable justified = vengeance based.


Not quite. Vengeance based would be "Because he killed people it's okay for us to kill him." For the record, yes, killing in self-defense is justified.

Because he's firing a gun in a gunfight and the people he was firing it at shot him dead is not the same as, because he killed people in an indirect act ten years ago he now deserves to be killed in self-defense. You're either arguing one of the two and it's not the former.


Actually, the argument stands, and here's why: The US Military probably didn't go in thinking "capture", but if Osama had been lying on his bed when they came in, they probably would have taken him and put him on trial, leading to an execution similar to Saddam Hussein's. But, he wasn't lying on his bed; he was firing on the soldiers. So he was killed in self-defense. It's similar to the case of the drug-dealer who gets killed during a raid since he had a gun in his hand.

Except, as I've pointed out, that's not what this debate is about. It's not about the fact that soldiers defended themselves in a firefight that resulted in his death. It's about sour's vengeance based ethic based on pronouncements that we are good and osama is evil. .

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ++$_ » Mon May 02, 2011 7:02 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Right, I was explaining that as a derivative of "punishment should be proportional to the enormity of the crime committed" which, while maybe not self-evident, is something I think we can agree on.
No, that's an vapid and idiotic principle. It makes no sense as it is. What the is the point of the punishment supposed to be? Once you explain that, maybe we can talk about whether or not it should be proportional to the "enormity" of the crime.

You're trying to dodge the complex moral and philosophical issues involved here in favor of crafting a facile and baseless theory of "proportionality" so you can indulge in revenge fantasies without having to consider the underlying purpose or logical consequences of the system you espouse, while simultaneously constructing an artificial and ultimately meaningless distinction between the "rights" of an individual and his deserved fate to free yourself from the apparently too onerous need to confront the practical consequences.

You see, the reason most people accept, in practice, the principle that punishment should be proportional to the crime is because of the imperfection inherent in our justice system. But you've neatly locked yourself out of using that factor to defend your position because you're talking about what punishment bin Laden supposedly "deserves," rather than what punishment the justice system should mete out to him.
H2SO4 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Many of these (say, all Iraqi deaths) are the result of an illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the United States or its allies.


Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]
If you still believe that Iraq somehow "posed a threat" to the US, despite all the evidence being to the contrary, you are beyond hope.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Tiny Kabuto » Mon May 02, 2011 7:06 am UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:I'm just waiting on the inevitable tape sent to Al-Jazeera where he taunts the West in saying they only killed a decoy. Looking at alleged images shown from Pakistani news channels, it's hard getting a conclusive opinion looking at a bloodied corpse, shot in the head, when you're running off source images 5-10 years old.

But if we're right, then I hope there's some tremendous catharsis for those who needed it.


We have his DNA. We can test it against his corpse to verify it. If they try to pull that crap they'll just look foolish.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby H2SO4 » Mon May 02, 2011 7:08 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:immoral

Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]

Exactly the same problem with the pronouncement of Osama as evil. Thank you for proving the point.

Article 3 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Osama has killed people. Technically, though, I haven't seen anyone here call him evil, just that he deserved what he got.

++$_ wrote:If you still believe that Iraq somehow "posed a threat" to the US, despite all the evidence being to the contrary, you are beyond hope.

I'm not saying they did pose a threat. I'm saying with the evidence we had at the time, we had every reason to believe they did. Not just that, but, as mentioned before, the UN passed 10 separate Resolutions saying Iraq was in breach of the cease-fire Iraq had with the United States. New evidence has come to light after the fact. We can't un-invade a country, and just bailing when Iraq is in the state it is (or at least the last time I checked) is even worse PR for the US, and it will inevitably lead to the US going back in.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 7:11 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:immoral

Emphasis mine.
[citation needed]

Exactly the same problem with the pronouncement of Osama as evil. Thank you for proving the point.

Article 3 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Osama has killed people. Technically, though, I haven't seen anyone here call him evil, just that he deserved what he got.
.

Sourmilk did.

Just because he violated article 3 doesn't make him evil, nor does it validate the concept of evil.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Randomizer » Mon May 02, 2011 7:13 am UTC

Aw, man. With Osama dead who are we going to hate on now?

And how will this affect South Park? Will Osama replace Saddam as Satan's boyfriend?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 7:15 am UTC

Randomizer wrote:Aw, man. With Osama dead who are we going to hate on now?

And how will this affect South Park? Will Osama replace Saddam as Satan's boyfriend?

More importantly, how with this affect Giuliani?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby TheAmazingRando » Mon May 02, 2011 7:15 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
IcedT wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.
The phrase necessary evil never made sense to me. If something is necessary, it can't be evil. If something is evil it can't be necessary. When there is only one option there isn't good v. evil, theirs a single option. For good and evil decisions to exist implies that a decision needs to be made.
It's just a semantic thing. Means "I don't like it, but I do like it better than my other options." Simple as that.

"Evil" has a different meaning when used in that idiom, but what about "unethical"? Generally it doesn't make sense to say that something is unconditionally wrong and then say that it needs to be done.
I'm not an ends-justify-the-means sort of person, and I don't think ethical and unethical is a mutually exclusive dichotomy when you're talking about complex situations.

In this case, I think it was wrong to kill Osama, since I think all killing is wrong. I also think it would be wrong to allow him to remain at large. If the only way to incapacitate him was to kill him, then unethical behavior is, more or less, inescapable. But that doesn't reduce the severity of that behavior. Evil begets evil, nobody can be blameless unless everyone is blameless.

I also don't really think "evil" is a valid concept, but it's decent shorthand for the idea of behavior that I'm ideologically opposed to.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ++$_ » Mon May 02, 2011 7:23 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
++$_ wrote:If you still believe that Iraq somehow "posed a threat" to the US, despite all the evidence being to the contrary, you are beyond hope.

I'm not saying they did pose a threat. I'm saying with the evidence we had at the time, we had every reason to believe they did. Not just that, but, as mentioned before, the UN passed 10 separate Resolutions saying Iraq was in breach of the cease-fire Iraq had with the United States. New evidence has come to light after the fact. We can't un-invade a country, and just bailing when Iraq is in the state it is (or at least the last time I checked) is even worse PR for the US, and it will inevitably lead to the US going back in.
Gah, I made a whole post and then accidentally closed the tab. GRRRR.

Anyway, here's the summary, because I really don't feel like rewriting it:

1. Joseph Wilson and the yellowcake purchases that didn't happen
2. Sabri's declaration that there was no WMD in Iraq, which was approved by the CIA
3. The aluminum tubes that weren't actually suitable for centrifuges, in the opinion of DOE experts
4. Colin Powell's admission that the intelligence presented to the UN was "deliberately misleading"
5. The Downing Street Memo

This is all information that was available to the administration, which they chose to ignore, or evidence that they had such information. They knew, even at the time, that the evidence for WMD in Iraq was at best contradictory, and at worst nonexistent.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon May 02, 2011 7:35 am UTC

Just to clarify something that's been going on in the thread. There are different kinds of justice. There's legal justice. That's the sort of thing that we, as citizens of civilized nations, should prefer. It involves evidence and courts and things like that. And there's justice that is about what is fair or right. That's more arbitrary, and less objective.

Perhaps we could at least agree that this killing isn't legal justice?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 7:45 am UTC

How US Forces Killed Osama Bin Laden
In the dark of night, U.S. helicopters approached a high-walled compound in Pakistan on a mission to capture or kill one of the world's most notorious terrorist leaders.
Less than 40 minutes later, Osama bin Laden was dead along with four others inside the complex, and the U.S. forces departed with the slain al Qaeda leader's body to fulfill a vow that originated shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.
U.S. President Barack Obama announced the successful raid on Sunday night, and senior administration officials provided further details on the assault on the compound they believe was built five years ago about 100 kilometers, or 62 miles, north of the Pakistani capital of Islamabad for the specific purpose of hiding bin Laden.
Spoiler:
The senior administration officials refused to provide information on the composition or numbers of the U.S. mission, but were able to describe to reporters the overall scenario of what happened.
After years of intelligence work and months of following a specific lead, they traced a courier linked to bin Laden to the compound in Abbottabad, described as an affluent residential area.
When first built, the compound was secluded and reachable by only a dirt road, the officials said. In recent years, more residences built up around it, but it remained by far the largest and most heavily secured property in the area, they said.
The mission ordered Friday by Obama encountered outer walls up to 18 feet tall topped with barbed wire, with two security gates and a series of internal walls that sectioned off different portions of the compound, the senior administration officials said. The main structure was a three-story building with few windows facing the outside of the compound, and a third-floor terrace had a seven-foot privacy wall, they said.
"When we saw the compound where the brothers lived, we were shocked by what we saw," one senior administration official said. "It was unique -- eight times larger than other homes in the area -- on a big plot of land."
Months of intelligence work determined that the compound was custom-built to hide a high-value terrorism suspect, almost certainly bin Laden. The officials noted there was no telephone or Internet service at the dwelling, which was valued at more than $1 million, and its occupants burned their trash, rather than leave it out for collection like other area residents.
Calling the U.S. operation a surgical raid, officials said it was conducted by a small team and designed to minimize collateral damage. Upon landing, the team encountered resistance from bin Laden and three other men that resulted in a firefight.
In the end, all four of the combatants in the compound were dead, along with a woman whom one of the men used as a human shield, the officials said. Sources said bin Laden was shot in the head.
At some point, one of the assaulting helicopters crashed due to a mechanical failure, according to the officials. It was detonated as the U.S. team flew away to destroy it, they said.
Obama and the senior administration officials said no U.S. forces were harmed in the operation. They provided no other details of the raid itself, but a senior defense official said U.S. Navy SEALs were involved.
U.S. officials said they used facial imaging and other methods to identify the body as bin Laden.
One official said it was clear to the assault force that the body matched bin Laden's description, but they used "facial recognition work, amongst other things, to confirm the identity."
A senior national security official told CNN that they had multiple confirmations that the body was bin Laden, saying they had the "ability to run images of the body and the face."
Another U.S. official told CNN that bin Laden has already been buried at sea. The official said his body was handled in the Islamic tradition, but did not elaborate.
A senior administration official also said bin Laden's body would be "handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition. This is something that we take very seriously, and so therefore this is being handled in an appropriate manner."
According to the senior administration officials, intelligence work determined at the beginning of 2011 that bin Laden might be located at the compound in Pakistan. By mid-February, the intelligence was considered strong enough to begin considering action pledged by Obama when bin Laden's whereabouts had been determined.
Obama chaired five National Security Council meetings from mid-March until late April, with the last two on April 19 and April 28 -- last Thursday. The next day, on Friday, Obama gave the order for the mission, the officials said.
The key break involved one of the few couriers trusted by bin Laden, according to the officials. About two years ago, intelligence work identified where the courier and his brother lived and operated in Pakistan, and it took until August of last year to find the compound in Abbottabad raided Sunday, they said.
"When we saw the compound where the brothers lived, we were shocked by what we saw -- an extraordinarily unique compound," one senior administration official said. "The compound sits on a large plot of land in an area that was relatively secluded when it was built. It is roughly eight times larger than the other homes in the area."
Noting that the courier and his brother had no discernible source of wealth to live at such a property, intelligence analysts concluded the compound was "custom-built to hide someone of extraordinary significance," the official said, adding: "Everything was consistent with what experts thought Osama bin Laden's compound would look like."
Another senior administration official told reporters that Obama's administration did not share intelligence gathered beforehand with any other country -- including Pakistan -- for security reasons. The official said that only a small group of people inside the U.S government knew about this operation in advance.
However, a senior Pakistani intelligence official said members of Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, were on site in Abbottabad during the operation. There was no way to immediately resolve the apparent discrepancy
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Velict » Mon May 02, 2011 8:02 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Just to clarify something that's been going on in the thread. There are different kinds of justice. There's legal justice. That's the sort of thing that we, as citizens of civilized nations, should prefer. It involves evidence and courts and things like that. And there's justice that is about what is fair or right. That's more arbitrary, and less objective.

Perhaps we could at least agree that this killing isn't legal justice?

IF you think there's something wrong about what the US did here, you're not the sort of person whose opinion Americans should care about.

On another note, the reaction after Seth Meyer made a joke about Osama's location last night.

Image

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Woofsie » Mon May 02, 2011 8:18 am UTC

As of right now, Osama is still on the FBI's 10 most wanted list. They need to update their website.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby OllieGarkey » Mon May 02, 2011 8:18 am UTC

Image
Image

8 years to the fucking day since Dubya declared mission accomplished.

Well guys, I'll say mission fucking accomplished. But that's because I've had half a bottle of Islay.

Pyrrhic Victory my ass, internet, more like AMERICAN victory.

Commies.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KingofMadCows » Mon May 02, 2011 8:35 am UTC

I wonder if the terror alert level will be raised as a precaution against retaliation by Al Qaeda.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Steax » Mon May 02, 2011 8:58 am UTC

Disclaimer: Not gonna argue if anything was right or wrong.

I for one am glad he was killed in the firefight. If he was captured and everything, retaliation would probably be worse. I'm pretty sure there will still be retaliation, but it would likely be worse if he was captured - then they're be fighting to try releasing him, or against whatever injustice we try to pull on him.

Can't help but be a bit scared though =/

@KingOfMadCows : it already is, I think. At least my American friends living here have been given warnings.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Kimmo » Mon May 02, 2011 9:07 am UTC

IcedT wrote:This isn't the same as celebrating some poor drafted grunt's death, this is a guy who has made an ideological stance of murdering my people and undermining their ideals and institutions. There are no reservations to my satisfaction at him being removed from this world.


How about that this dead guy's actions served as a pretext for those ideals and institutions to be undermined and corrupted by domestic fascists?

It seems pretty apparent that the US govt has been engaged in far more sustained terrorism on the American populace than Al Qaeda ever was. Killing Bin Laden doesn't change in the slightest the fact that he won, big time - without even taking the 9/11 toll into account.

Too many evil pollies, prepared to make off with miles at the merest hint of an inch.

+1 pyrrhic.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ArgonV » Mon May 02, 2011 9:12 am UTC

Pics or it didn't happen?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Prefanity » Mon May 02, 2011 9:16 am UTC

ArgonV wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?


http://boards.4chan.org/b/

Have fun.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:20 am UTC

Prefanity wrote:
ArgonV wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?


http://boards.4chan.org/b/

Have fun.

NSFW, NSFL, and auto-play audio.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby skeptical scientist » Mon May 02, 2011 9:20 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:Yes, because being "brought to justice" is getting assassinated without a trial

We don't have all of the facts yet, but how do you know they weren't trying to capture him alive? My guess is that the goal of the mission was not to kill him, but to kill or capture him (whichever was possible). If he had surrendered, we probably would have seen a trial (a long one, I'd wager, but I'm picturing a New York City jury ready to execute him after 15 seconds). But of course he didn't, and attempted to kill the people sent after him, so we had to kill him.

jestingrabbit wrote:Just to clarify something that's been going on in the thread. There are different kinds of justice. There's legal justice. That's the sort of thing that we, as citizens of civilized nations, should prefer. It involves evidence and courts and things like that. And there's justice that is about what is fair or right. That's more arbitrary, and less objective.

Perhaps we could at least agree that this killing isn't legal justice?

I don't. When a drug trafficker is killed in a shootout with police while resisting arrest, that's how the legal system is supposed to work—that's legal justice. A trial is a worthy goal, but when you are trying to bring someone to trial, and they are shooting at you, you don't risk innocent lives trying to capture them alive if you can end the shootout by killing them.

* * *


So, anyone want to start a betting pool over how long it takes the conspiracy nuts to freak out over the at-sea burial?

Edit: some of them already are.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Prefanity » Mon May 02, 2011 9:27 am UTC

sje46 wrote:
Prefanity wrote:
ArgonV wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?


http://boards.4chan.org/b/

Have fun.

NSFW, NSFL, and auto-play audio.


I suppose I shouldn't have taken for granted that everyone knows what /b/ is.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Steax » Mon May 02, 2011 9:35 am UTC

CNN claims it was "Islamic tradition" to dispose of the body at sea, but I don't know. Maybe that's how it is locally. Islamic tradition here in Indonesia is to lay them to rest after 24 hours, during which people can usually see the body.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Viae » Mon May 02, 2011 9:37 am UTC

Apparently it is if the body is at risk of desecration.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby skeptical scientist » Mon May 02, 2011 9:53 am UTC

Steax wrote:CNN claims it was "Islamic tradition" to dispose of the body at sea, but I don't know. Maybe that's how it is locally. Islamic tradition here in Indonesia is to lay them to rest after 24 hours, during which people can usually see the body.

I've seen this reported multiple places, but it's false.
Al-Islam—Rules About Burial of the Dead Body wrote:620. * It is obligatory to bury a dead body in the ground, so deep that its smell does not come out and the beasts of prey do not dig it out, and, if there is a danger of such beasts digging it out then the grave should be made solid with bricks, etc.

623. * If a person dies on a ship and if there is no fear of the decay of the dead body and if there is no problem in retaining it for sometime on the ship, it should be kept on it and buried in the ground after reaching the land. Otherwise, after giving Ghusl [washing of the body], Hunut [?], Kafan [shrouding] and Namaz-e-Mayyit [prayers for the dead?] it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators.

I think the only basis for this claim is that "Muslim tradition requires burial within 24 hours," which was reported in the New York times article, and elsewhere. So by conducting the burial at sea, they followed this one tradition. But they ignored many others, so it's incorrect to say that they followed Islamic tradition for the burial.
Last edited by skeptical scientist on Mon May 02, 2011 11:54 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Steax » Mon May 02, 2011 10:05 am UTC

The tradition here is actually more than 24 hours - there needs to be 1 day for well-wishers and family to mourn. I don't know how rooted that is in Islam, though, but tradition here is against that.

It does seem highly strange that they decided to dispose of it at sea, to me. I guess they must have their reasons.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jauss » Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am UTC

Steax wrote:It does seem highly strange that they decided to dispose of it at sea, to me. I guess they must have their reasons.

It's so there won't be a particular burial site for his followers to pay homage to/organize around/get riled up at.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Steroid » Mon May 02, 2011 10:24 am UTC

Amidst all the moral quandries, I have some practical concerns:

Why did this take so long? Why wasn't a more thorough and ongoing search being made during the last 10 years? Is it really this difficult to get one guy, and if so, what does that tell future terrorist leaders?

What are the consequences going to be for US-Pakistan relations? I mean, basically they were, not harboring the guy, but giving him pied-a-terre.

The capture of Saddam Hussein was seen largely as a guarantor of George W. Bush's reelection. Is this going to help President Obama? On the one hand, I don't like his policies or think he's a good president, but on the other hand I think foreign policy is the one area he hasn't completely screwed up, and he certainly deserves credit for being the C-in-C when this happened. On the other other hand, if he is reelected, I don't want it to be seen as vindication for the moral hand-wringing that some have instead of the cowboy "We got 'im!" attitude that this should be. On the other^3 hand, at least if he does get four more years, we on the right can say it was all dependent on killing a bad guy.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby fjafjan » Mon May 02, 2011 10:38 am UTC

Steax wrote:It does seem highly strange that they decided to dispose of it at sea, to me. I guess they must have their reasons.

I believe the reason was so that followers etc would not have a place to honor him etc. Just as there would be no place to desecrate. The ocean is pretty dang neutral basically.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dream » Mon May 02, 2011 10:56 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Steax wrote:It does seem highly strange that they decided to dispose of it at sea, to me. I guess they must have their reasons.

I believe the reason was so that followers etc would not have a place to honor him etc. Just as there would be no place to desecrate. The ocean is pretty dang neutral basically.

It also allows them to secretly move the body back to US soil in order that all the politicians and military leaders can have a gander just to make sure. #inonthegroundfloor
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby skeptical scientist » Mon May 02, 2011 11:49 am UTC

Steax wrote:CNN claims it was "Islamic tradition" to dispose of the body at sea, but I don't know. Maybe that's how it is locally. Islamic tradition here in Indonesia is to lay them to rest after 24 hours, during which people can usually see the body.

I suspect this is the kind of thing which is not universal within Islam, but is tradition for some groups of Muslims. The site I linked earlier said nothing about when the body should be buried, but I did find other websites talking about that specific tradition. Religious practices are often modified by existing cultural practices in the area, and of course Indonesian culture and Arab culture are very different, even if Islam is the predominant religion in both parts of the world.

Steroid wrote:Amidst all the moral quandries.

I don't see any moral quandaries. Is there any doubt that he was a seriously bad guy, guilty of thousands of murders? He's basically bragged about it on CNN. Is there any doubt that he was a standard bearer for people intent on committing more murders, and would have acted as more than a mere standard bearer if we hadn't been actively searching for him? The only half-way legitimate argument I see anyone trying to make is that he should have been brought to trial rather than being killed. But it's hard enough to raid an armed compound without trying to avoid harming the people shooting at you. Should we really have sacrificed American lives to capture Bin Laden, instead of killing him with no American casualties?

What are the consequences going to be for US-Pakistan relations? I mean, basically they were, not harboring the guy, but giving him pied-a-terre.

I don't think there will be huge consequences. We've known or suspected he was in Pakistan for a while, so any consequences of that have already happened. Theoretically, there could be consequences of us performing a military action on Pakistani soil without their prior knowledge, but the official line of the Pakistani government is that they support our action, so I don't think this is a big concern.

The capture of Saddam Hussein was seen largely as a guarantor of George W. Bush's reelection. Is this going to help President Obama?

Obviously. His approval rating is going to go through the roof for as long as this story is in the media. Obviously that will have died down somewhat before the election, but it is still a huge success that he can point to during the campaign.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dream » Mon May 02, 2011 12:07 pm UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:I don't see any moral quandaries.

Here you go. The US was offered bin Laden alive by the Taliban a decade ago, and they turned down the offer. They chose to go after him this way, when it was not necessary to do so. They also chose to follow policies that they knew would lead to hundred of innocent deaths, when they were not forced to. This killing was not forced to happen by bin Laden's flight from justice, nor by his decision to resist his capture. It was the freely chosen policy of the United States that did this, and all the suffering in the name of this over the last ten years.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Kimmo » Mon May 02, 2011 12:43 pm UTC

OllieGarkey wrote:Image


Has anyone got context for that kick? It just seems to come outta nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SFXQfE4kk
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