Osama bin Laden is Dead

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby thorgold » Mon May 02, 2011 4:09 am UTC

Joeldi wrote:So you're all celebrating that someone was killed. Not brought to trial, not given a chance to answer for his crimes, just off handedly killed in a bomb attack. Whatever happened to being better than the enemy?

Once your kill count passes the triple digits, you pretty much forfeit your rights. Quick death is us being the better person - I'd have prefered to see him rot a few decades in solitary.

...but really. The guy who masterminded the cold-blooded murder of at least 3500 people without remorse, the same one who has repeatedly eluded capture for more than a decade, you're saying we're in the wrong for killing him where we could get him? There's a point at which you have to get off the moral high horse - he's dead either way, right now or after three lifetime sentences plus one hundred in prison. What was he going to answer for? He already did confess to all his crimes in the form of boastful responsibility tapes.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:10 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:And what if we're just counting the civilians we deliberately, by orders, targeted for the specific purpose of filling our enemies with fear?


I'd say that to someone currently dead in the service of someone else's agenda, it's an awfully pointless distinction. You're still dead. On purpose. Because someone wanted to settle a fight with someone else entirely. Do you, the dead guy, care about the particulars?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:11 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:I'm wanting to here more about this "targeted raid" into Pakistan. Abbottabad's not exactly in the middle of the Pakistani boondocks, and is pretty far from the Afghan border. Did the Pakistani's know about this? Did they approve of it? How many US troops were sent in, and how? Who were these "U.S. Operatives"? I suppose the operation will be detailed in gory detail in the next few days, but I'm sort of curious as to how Pakistan's going to play this.

Yeah, agreed. The fact that he was found in a mansion in a fairly populous area makes me wonder if Pakistan had knowledge.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby TheAmazingRando » Mon May 02, 2011 4:12 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Number is deaths is not a good metric. Civilian casualties as a result of fighting in urban areas is not equivalent to targeting civilians in urban areas.
They're both fucking terrible. I doubt the families of the deceased are at all consoled by the fact that the death of their loved ones was accidental.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon May 02, 2011 4:12 am UTC

Belial wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:It's great how sarcastic hyperbole matches sarcastic hyperbole.

Edit: More to the point, it's great how sarcastic hyperbole forces other people to the other extreme end of hyperbole just to correct for it.


Truly, you are a master of puppets. Or you at least own master of puppets. Good album. Anyway.

Point being, as soon as the number of civilians we killed to pursue our goals exceeded the number they killed pursuing theirs, we pretty much lost the right to be sanctimonious about that shit.

Unless we're not counting afghanis as people. At which point the moral calculus works out great on our side.

Hmm. Unless we count soldiers as people too, instead of pretending that having a gun and military training makes your death less of a loss. Then we're back in the hole again.

Basically, there's very little to be happy about here.


Not necessarily. If you really wanted to look at the great scheme of things, you'll have to be some sort of psychic. We'll need to know the number of people Osama would have killed without us going into Afghanistan (more thousands? More hundreds? Ten thousands? who knows?). Then, we compare that with the known result.

Ultimately, this death symbolizes an important event. Osama Bin Laden is no longer the mastermind of killings. We do not have to worry about Osama anymore.

EDIT: Its impossible to post in this thread anymore >_<. Too many people are talking.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:13 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:And what if we're just counting the civilians we deliberately, by orders, targeted for the specific purpose of filling our enemies with fear?


I'd say that to someone currently dead in the service of someone else's agenda, it's an awfully pointless distinction. You're still dead. On purpose. Because someone wanted to settle a fight with someone else entirely. Do you, the dead guy, care about the particulars?


Yes, it does. I hold no ill will against somebody who kills me or somebody I know if it was necessary and he had taken the proper measures to prevent it. But the dead person is not the sole arbiter of the morality of his death.

AmazingRadio wrote:
They're both fucking terrible. I doubt the families of the deceased are at all consoled by the fact that the death of their loved ones was accidental.


Non sequitor. Perhaps they aren't, but that doesn't determine the morality of the action.
Last edited by sourmìlk on Mon May 02, 2011 4:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:13 am UTC

IcedT wrote:Or how all individuals have the some [same?] moral value regardless of the circumstances in which they were killed, the reasons why they were killed, the measures taken to reduce deaths or to increase them, and the like.
Would you argue differently? Would you argue that someone has more or less moral value because they were killed for a different reason? Because while I might personally judge the act of killing them differently based on its circumstances, I find it pretty abhorrent that you're suggesting the individuals themselves magically have different value because of that...
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:14 am UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Number is deaths is not a good metric. Civilian casualties as a result of fighting in urban areas is not equivalent to targeting civilians in urban areas.
They're both fucking terrible. I doubt the families of the deceased are at all consoled by the fact that the death of their loved ones was accidental.
My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:15 am UTC

Did someone say they should be? Or are you talking to the same people podbaydoor seems to be, who aren't actually participating in this thread?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:15 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
IcedT wrote:Or how all individuals have the some [same?] moral value regardless of the circumstances in which they were killed, the reasons why they were killed, the measures taken to reduce deaths or to increase them, and the like.
Would you argue differently? Would you argue that someone has more or less moral value because they were killed for a different reason? Because while I might personally judge the act of killing them differently based on its circumstances, I find it pretty abhorrent that you're suggesting the individuals themselves magically have different value because of that...

I think you're misreading what he's saying. I believe he means that, when judging the morality of our actions, the immorality of a death is affected by those factors.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:16 am UTC

Try not to forget that the military actively takes precautions to avoid civilian casualties.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 02, 2011 4:17 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:And what if we're just counting the civilians we deliberately, by orders, targeted for the specific purpose of filling our enemies with fear?


The civilians who we killed are just as dead and just as innocent as the ones they killed. Perspective is important here: they also do not believe that they are deliberately killing innocent civilians; your enemies will never go to war believing that your cause is right and theirs is wrong. Simply because we "won" does not make our cause more moral than theirs.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon May 02, 2011 4:18 am UTC

Killing Bin laden hasn't really changed anything. I'm listening to the news right now and one of the major topics of discussion is the need to increase security to guard against potential retaliatory attacks.

In the light of that discussion, I would like to reiterate a point I have made in numerous other discussions on terrorism and security:
The main success of Al Qaeda was not the deaths of 9/11, it was the fear created by 9/11 and the many failed attacks since then that has lead to increasing loss of freedom and peace of mind in the U.S. and around the world.

One repeated theme in the news coverage I've been listening to is that every time anyone has flown since 9/11, they have been reminded of what Bin laden was able to accomplish. It reminds me that we live in a country dominated by fear and the politics of fear.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon May 02, 2011 4:18 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Try not to forget that the military actively takes precautions to avoid civilian casualties.


Well, as long as we aren't trying to kill the tens of thousands of people we've killed, s'all good then. Look, I understand the distinction, but the idea that it's even remotely acceptable to accidentally kill over 10,000 people in an attempt to kill 1 man, or 100, or 1,000 is fucking absurd.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:20 am UTC

If you start from "we're totes going to bomb the shit out of this place" or "we're totally going to have a firefight in the middle of this residential area" or "we're totally going to straight up invade the fuck out of this country" and then add "but we're going to try to kill as few innocent people as possible", well, yes, that's taking all steps to avoid civilian casualties given the presuppositions.

But you still decided to do those things, knowing full well you'd be killing a butt-ton of people. So yeah, it's still on you.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 02, 2011 4:20 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Did someone say they should be? Or are you talking to the same people podbaydoor seems to be, who aren't actually participating in this thread?

I was adding commentary, not necessarily assuming he was making that argument. Deaths are bad and even the worst people on earth cause some grief with their passing, but having accepted that fact we're still left with a philosophical problem in when and how to use force.

sourmilk wrote:I believe he means that, when judging the morality of our actions, the immorality of a death is affected by those factors.

This is what I meant. And sorry about the typo.

EDIT:
belial wrote:If you start from "we're totes going to bomb the shit out of this place" or "we're totally going to have a firefight in the middle of this residential area" or "we're totally going to straight up invade the fuck out of this country" and then add "but we're going to try to kill as few innocent people as possible", well, yes, that's taking all steps to avoid civilian casualties given the presuppositions.

But you still decided to do those things, knowing full well you'd be killing a butt-ton of people. So yeah, it's still on you.

That's a strawman. I don't pretend to know the circumstances under which all these civilians were killed and how much more could have or should have been done to preserve their lives- but you apparently do.

Also, by your line of argument, what should we have done when the civilian casualty count neared 3,000? Just gone "oh, we're too close to being just as bad as him, time to pack up and go home?"
Last edited by IcedT on Mon May 02, 2011 4:26 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:21 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:Try not to forget that the military actively takes precautions to avoid civilian casualties.


Well, as long as we aren't trying to kill the tens of thousands of people we've killed, s'all good then. Look, I understand the distinction, but the idea that it's even remotely acceptable to accidentally kill over 10,000 people in an attempt to kill 1 man, or 100, or 1,000 is fucking absurd.


But that's not how we're measuring it. the wars were (supposed to be) carried out as an act of defense. Meaning that we weren't accidentally killing 10,000 people to get at one guy, we accidentally killed 10,000 people to save 100,000 or however many american civilians would have died had the terrorists gone unchecked.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 02, 2011 4:21 am UTC

I have a hard time accepting this argument given the history of civilian causalities in war time, and am not convinced it's possible to avoid entirely. I applaud armies that seek to minimize civilian casualties, even more so when fighting an enemy that seeks to maximize it.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Aikanaro » Mon May 02, 2011 4:23 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:And what if we're just counting the civilians we deliberately, by orders, targeted for the specific purpose of filling our enemies with fear?


I'd say that to someone currently dead in the service of someone else's agenda, it's an awfully pointless distinction. You're still dead. On purpose. Because someone wanted to settle a fight with someone else entirely. Do you, the dead guy, care about the particulars?

Okay then, counter-godwin: Do you think that the only Germans who were killed by US troops in WW2 were nazis? Do we lose any sort of moral high ground there? Please note I'm not taking into consideration Hiroshima, etc., let's just look at the most extreme case of us vs. Germany. THOSE civilians are just as dead, as well. I've told you where I'm drawing my line for the moral high ground. Where's yours?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Ivora » Mon May 02, 2011 4:23 am UTC

i wanna be happy... but it feels like a hollow win...

what bugs me is... now what? :(

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Sulayman-F » Mon May 02, 2011 4:24 am UTC

I am a Muslim, and I'm so happy they finally nailed this creep.
He's killed thousands of Americans, including many Muslims in my community who worked in lower Manhattan. 9/11 even destroyed the local mosque at the Towers.

Bin Laden was never a Muslim leader, back in the 1990s Muslim leaders spoke out against him and called for his capture, after his involvement in bombing of US embassies. Even his "spiritual leader" told the press that Bin Laden is not qualified to speak for Islam and he had no training to make rulings or give fatwas.

God's gonna judge him, and I hope He gives Bin Laden what he deserves, for the misery he's put Muslims worldwide through, and for disgracing Islam and the millions of peaceful patriotic law-abiding American Muslims.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:24 am UTC

I'm not really arguing here. I know there are civilian casualties during war. I hate that fact, very deeply. It is pointless to argue with people like Belial or Dream on these things, because we come at it from two very different perspectives. I just don't want people to get so rah-rah about how the military is a bunch of thugs and ignore the fact that we're actually pretty fucking extravagant when it comes to minimizing casualties.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby LtNOWIS » Mon May 02, 2011 4:25 am UTC

lanicita wrote:We needed to get rid of him somehow, and I'm glad he wasn't just captured because he would surely go to somewhere like Guantanamo and that would be worse than being instantly killed in a bombing. I am glad that he personally is not a threat anymore, but I can't bring myself to feel happy about anyone's death.

Looks like it wasn't an airstrike. Joint Special Operations Command went in and killed him in a firefight.

He was a terrible dude, who conducted lots of deliberate and unprovoked attacks on civilian targets. So, I'm celebrating!

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:25 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Belial wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:And what if we're just counting the civilians we deliberately, by orders, targeted for the specific purpose of filling our enemies with fear?


I'd say that to someone currently dead in the service of someone else's agenda, it's an awfully pointless distinction. You're still dead. On purpose. Because someone wanted to settle a fight with someone else entirely. Do you, the dead guy, care about the particulars?

Okay then, counter-godwin: Do you think that the only Germans who were killed by US troops in WW2 were nazis? Do we lose any sort of moral high ground there? Please note I'm not taking into consideration Hiroshima, etc., let's just look at the most extreme case of us vs. Germany. THOSE civilians are just as dead, as well. I've told you where I'm drawing my line for the moral high ground. Where's yours?


I know what you're getting at, but that's not a great example. In the WWII era it was accepted practice to bomb civilian areas in order to make them want to surrender, which is what the allies did in WWII.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:28 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I have a hard time accepting this argument given the history of civilian causalities in war time, and am not convinced it's possible to avoid entirely. I applaud armies that seek to minimize civilian casualties, even more so when fighting an enemy that seeks to maximize it.
Yeah. I have to say their is a large moral gap between military action that attempts to minimize casualties and those that seek to maximize them. The reality is that Al-Qaeda doesn't even understand the words "human rights", they actively seek to undermined them at every corner.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 4:29 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Okay then, counter-godwin: Do you think that the only Germans who were killed by US troops in WW2 were nazis? Do we lose any sort of moral high ground there? Please note I'm not taking into consideration Hiroshima, etc., let's just look at the most extreme case of us vs. Germany. THOSE civilians are just as dead, as well. I've told you where I'm drawing my line for the moral high ground. Where's yours?


S'pect we killed fewer german civilians than the holocaust, but that's beside the point. In answer to your final question: don't got one. We did what we did. We thought it was necessary. We don't get to go "we're totally absolutely unequivocally better forever because 9/11". That way lies idiocy and a critical loss of self-examination.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:30 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Okay then, counter-godwin: Do you think that the only Germans who were killed by US troops in WW2 were nazis? Do we lose any sort of moral high ground there? Please note I'm not taking into consideration Hiroshima, etc., let's just look at the most extreme case of us vs. Germany. THOSE civilians are just as dead, as well. I've told you where I'm drawing my line for the moral high ground. Where's yours?


S'pect we killed fewer german civilians than the holocaust, but that's beside the point. In answer to your final question: don't got one. We did what we did. We thought it was necessary. We don't get to go "we're totally absolutely unequivocally better forever because 9/11". That way lies idiocy and a critical loss of self-examination.


Nobody's saying that though.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sje46 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:30 am UTC

thorgold wrote:
Joeldi wrote:So you're all celebrating that someone was killed. Not brought to trial, not given a chance to answer for his crimes, just off handedly killed in a bomb attack. Whatever happened to being better than the enemy?

Once your kill count passes the triple digits, you pretty much forfeit your rights. Quick death is us being the better person - I'd have prefered to see him rot a few decades in solitary.
No, nothing should forfeit your rights. I don't care if you killed 60 million people. Rights are rights.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Aikanaro » Mon May 02, 2011 4:31 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Okay then, counter-godwin: Do you think that the only Germans who were killed by US troops in WW2 were nazis? Do we lose any sort of moral high ground there? Please note I'm not taking into consideration Hiroshima, etc., let's just look at the most extreme case of us vs. Germany. THOSE civilians are just as dead, as well. I've told you where I'm drawing my line for the moral high ground. Where's yours?


S'pect we killed fewer german civilians than the holocaust, but that's beside the point. In answer to your final question: don't got one. We did what we did. We thought it was necessary. We don't get to go "we're totally absolutely unequivocally better forever because 9/11". That way lies idiocy and a critical loss of self-examination.

Agreed. Lemme put it to you this way, something I think we can at least agree on: We at least suck less than them.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 02, 2011 4:32 am UTC

We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale nearly.

sje46 wrote:
thorgold wrote:
Joeldi wrote:So you're all celebrating that someone was killed. Not brought to trial, not given a chance to answer for his crimes, just off handedly killed in a bomb attack. Whatever happened to being better than the enemy?

Once your kill count passes the triple digits, you pretty much forfeit your rights. Quick death is us being the better person - I'd have prefered to see him rot a few decades in solitary.
No, nothing should forfeit your rights. I don't care if you killed 60 million people. Rights are rights.


Not true. Does a serial murderer have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or property if you like the original Locke)"? If somebody is violently attacking me, at least while this is going on, does he have the right to bodily safety?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 02, 2011 4:33 am UTC

sje46 wrote:Rights are rights.

Sure, except Osama is a wanted known terrorist. His rights do not include 'live peacefully at a beach side villa sans US military knocking on his door'.

Belial wrote:S'pect we killed fewer german civilians than the holocaust, but that's beside the point.

It's aligned to the point though; civilian deaths happen, and people need to recognize that America didn't glaze Afghanistan to a radioactive sheen; in fact, we did quite the opposite. Yes, civilian deaths are an unfortunate part of war, which is why, again, America should be praised for doing what it can to minimize it.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Korrente » Mon May 02, 2011 4:34 am UTC

Mark Twain wrote:I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 02, 2011 4:35 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale nearly.

I don't know that the actions of our more amoral contractors (incidentally wealthy with our tax money) currently over there, allow us to say that easily.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Oregonaut
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:36 am UTC

Haliblackwaterton.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby TheAmazingRando » Mon May 02, 2011 4:36 am UTC

IcedT wrote:My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.
Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 02, 2011 4:37 am UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:
IcedT wrote:My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.
Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.


So...sending the USS Hope to Indonesia after the tsunami...unethical. K.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon May 02, 2011 4:37 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:But that's not how we're measuring it. the wars were (supposed to be) carried out as an act of defense. Meaning that we weren't accidentally killing 10,000 people to get at one guy, we accidentally killed 10,000 people to save 100,000 or however many american civilians would have died had the terrorists gone unchecked.


At the cost of tens of thousands of innocent lives abroad. I don't know how many 100,000s of American Lives (Which are TOTES super lives and worth like 3 or 4 non-American lives) but I do know that we killed a fucking lot of non-Americans doing it.

I am not okay with that.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon May 02, 2011 4:38 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale nearly.

I don't know that the actions of our more amoral contractors (incidentally wealthy with our tax money) currently over there, allow us to say that easily.


I think the actions of the Al Qaeda members who have forced children to don explosive vests does allow us to say that easily.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon May 02, 2011 4:38 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:
IcedT wrote:My condolences, but I don't think military decisions should be made primarily by Griefometer.
Nor do I think they should be, which is why I think all military action is unethical, even if in some circumstances it may be a necessary evil.


So...sending the USS Hope to Indonesia after the tsunami...unethical. K.


That *whoosh* was Rando's point going over your head.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon May 02, 2011 4:39 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
We at least suck less than them.


Way less. Like, on opposite ends of the moral scale

You suck less than the Nazi leadership, sure. Not so sure about the average German.
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