Osama bin Laden is Dead

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby broken_escalator » Fri May 13, 2011 3:25 pm UTC

Just remember not to let your chainsaws leave the chainsaw slots, or at the very least require a mechanism to be pushed to remove it.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Fri May 13, 2011 3:27 pm UTC

Yeah, if you have the chainsaw on a runner you'd be fine. But then the director wouldn't have had a chance to carve her like turducken.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Fri May 13, 2011 6:20 pm UTC

Ah, the Taliban. So dedicated to the defense of Islam, they'll kill every Muslim that gets in their way!

Seriously. Why does anybody put up with these assholes?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Fri May 13, 2011 9:24 pm UTC

IcedT wrote:Why does anybody put up with these assholes?

IcedT wrote:they'll kill every Muslim that gets in their way
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Fri May 13, 2011 9:31 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
IcedT wrote:Why does anybody put up with these assholes?

IcedT wrote:they'll kill every Muslim that gets in their way

I was referring more specifically to, for example, high-placed Pakistani officials who protect them out of clan loyalties or whatever. The point is that the things they do are so disgraceful, brutal and idiotic that I don't get why people in power tolerate their presence.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Fri May 13, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

If I had to guess, idiotic ideologies?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby podbaydoor » Sat May 14, 2011 2:34 am UTC

Or their agendas are such that Osama can still be useful to them. If you're just interested in power, and you, to pick a random example, think that your grasp on power can be served by needling the US, and you don't care that much about the common citizenry, then you won't care about Osama hiding out.

The latest news: Apparently they have found a stash of pornography in the compound. Sources refuse to say where it was found. HMMMMMM.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 14, 2011 3:04 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:The latest news: Apparently they have found a stash of pornography in the compound. Sources refuse to say where it was found. HMMMMMM.

It doesn't seem like Osama is the kind of guy who would have that much of a shortage of women. Isn't the classic Bond villain thing to have a harem?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Vash » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:46 pm UTC

Osama Bin Laden will live on forever through the fear in our hearts.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:08 am UTC

So say we all.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

Read an interesting detailed by detailed account of the raid. It has a lot of interesting details that hadn't been released yet and tidbits that give some info on the SEAL operators and the administration(i.e. Biden praying the Rosary during the raid).

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011 ... t_schmidle
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby jakovasaur » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

That was a good read. This bit though, "The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, “For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."" and the Biden quote about going to Mass are really off-putting. Pretty sad that a lot of people in charge think that we are fighting a holy war.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:52 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:That was a good read. This bit though, "The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, “For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."" and the Biden quote about going to Mass are really off-putting. Pretty sad that a lot of people in charge think that we are fighting a holy war.
Yeah, it was a little bit surprised by how much religion factored into people during the raid.... I mean maybe that should be a given based on the fact that OBL attacked us because of religion... but something about retaliating in the name of god really strikes me as unpious.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby podbaydoor » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:35 pm UTC

I've heard that the Marines have incorporated the Christian religion into basically everything ("For God and Country") and it's pretty easy to see the SEALs doing the same. It's depressing, but that's what you get with a military culture that changes behind everyone else. Also that to a certain extent, specialized forces like the SEALs and Marines self-select for a certain type of personality, and they go through loads of indoctrination on top of that. What better motivation to perform incredibly difficult killing missions requiring inhuman speed and precision than for omnipotent dieties? Is probably why every country since forever has used fanatics and zealots, just lock in that extra layer of loyalty.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby nitePhyyre » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:51 pm UTC

There are no atheists in fox holes.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby ShootTheChicken » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:04 am UTC

Except for those in foxholes who are atheists. But apart from them, yeah, no atheists in foxholes.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:09 am UTC

http://tillmanstory.com/site/

There are certainly thousands of others.
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Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby addams » Wed May 02, 2012 9:15 am UTC

It has been a year. Is the world a better place?

One old mystic man, that the world was focused on, died while watching TV? It all seems so strange to me.

How 1984. Who will the Two Minute Hate be aimed at next?

Does it really matter to the unthinking masses? The big screen TV and the little screen computer will tell us. Then we will Hate with all of our might. Somehow it all seems strangely familiar.

A year. A full year. So, many have died. So much injustice.

Americans torture innocents for fun.
Some people are proud of their brutish and uncivil behavior.

It is unwise to tell the brutish and uncivil a thing like that. I must not be wise.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed May 02, 2012 12:43 pm UTC

The dude died while plotting an attack to overthrow Karzai, as well as a 10th anniversary 9/11 attack on the US. And not to mention, he was the guy in charge of the 9/11 attack itself.

Let the fucker die. As stated earlier in this thread, I'm shedding no tears for this man, though I think we wronged Pakistan during the attack. The Bin Laden attack was nothing less than a Top Secret invasion of a sovereign state. IE: President Obama had some fucking balls to order this attack.

BTW: in the article...
A declassified selection of the vast trove of material will be published online Thursday [May 3, 2012] by the Combating Terrorism Center, a think tank at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point.


I'm surprised that they're willing to declassify some of the stuff already.

Also:
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-30/opin ... PM:OPINION

So badly tarnished had the al Qaeda brand become that bin Laden noodled with changing the name of his group. In an internal memo, bin Laden pointed out that "[President] Obama [says] that our war is not on Islam or the Muslim people, but rather our war is on the al Qaeda organization. So if the word al Qaeda was derived from or had strong ties to the word 'Islam' or 'Muslims,' or if it had the name 'Islamic party' it would be difficult for Obama to say that."

Bin Laden went on to nominate some possible new names for al Qaeda. "These are some suggestions: Monotheism and Jihad group, Monotheism and Defending Islam Group, Restoration of the Caliphate Group ... Muslim Unity group." None of these suggestions were exactly catchy and the group did not rename itself.


From this... its clear that diplomacy was key for Al-Queda's demise. Refocusing the war onto Al-Queda itself has proved detrimental to Al-Queda.

Another preview of whats getting published.

Bin Laden sometimes gave guidance to his deputies so bizarre that they must have read it while scratching their turbans in bemusement. He complained that Faizal Shahzad, the American citizen of Pakistani heritage who had tried to blow up an SUV in Times Square on May 1, 2010, had broken the oath of allegiance he had sworn to the United States, and tut-tutted that "We do not want the Mujahedeen to be accused of breaking an oath." Bin Laden kept pressing his lieutenants for more attacks on America, but now they couldn't recruit naturalized U.S. citizens to carry out those missions. Huh?


It seems like Bin Laden was trying to become an "honorable warrior" type? He still was trying to plot attacks against civilians, but he didn't want any traitors on his side. Kinda interesting methinks.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby addams » Thu May 03, 2012 6:56 am UTC

For a Two Minute Hate, that was good.

You got the victim and the man that ordered his death all in one outburst.

Do you feel like a fictional character? Like a cheerleader?

Hate and Anger; Hate and indignation; Then a little more Hate.

What?! Was Orwell an Oracle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu May 03, 2012 8:06 am UTC

I don't think I've ever seen so much pretention in one post. "Look at me, I'm smart because I read 1984 and can twist current events to kind of sound like what it described".
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Zamfir » Thu May 03, 2012 8:25 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I don't think I've ever seen so much pretention in one post.

Oh, just hang around a bit longer.

EDIT more serious: I'd say that 1984 is one of the least pretentious books to reference. It's like Star Wars. Everyone knows it, so you can make elaborate references without limiting yourself to some incrowd.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Ghostbear » Thu May 03, 2012 10:02 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:It seems like Bin Laden was trying to become an "honorable warrior" type? He still was trying to plot attacks against civilians, but he didn't want any traitors on his side. Kinda interesting methinks.

It's important to remember that no matter how horrible these people are, they think that what they are doing is right. Following that, what kind of person would want a cause that they (emphasis on "they") see as just to be corrupted by influences they see as negative? Even the most evil person is going to have some qualities that are of the not-evil variety.

Spambot5546 wrote:I don't think I've ever seen so much pretention in one post. "Look at me, I'm smart because I read 1984 and can twist current events to kind of sound like what it described".

I think you might be reading too much into addams' post.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu May 03, 2012 5:53 pm UTC

I think she makes a fine point, myself.

Sure, there are differences between Two Minutes' Hate and the masturbational furor this country's been in over Bin Laden's death, but there are plenty of similarities, too. To disregard them because literary references are deemed "pretentious" risks ignoring any lessons 1984 may otherwise impart.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Arrian » Thu May 03, 2012 6:18 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:I don't think I've ever seen so much pretention in one post.

Oh, just hang around a bit longer.

EDIT more serious: I'd say that 1984 is one of the least pretentious books to reference. It's like Star Wars. Everyone knows it, so you can make elaborate references without limiting yourself to some incrowd.


Yeah, pretentious would have been referencing We. ;P

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri May 04, 2012 4:53 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:I think she makes a fine point, myself.

Sure, there are differences between Two Minutes' Hate and the masturbational furor this country's been in over Bin Laden's death, but there are plenty of similarities, too. To disregard them because literary references are deemed "pretentious" risks ignoring any lessons 1984 may otherwise impart.


There is only "lessons to be learned" from 1984 like there are "lessons to be learned" from Atlas Shrugged.

Basically, you only agree with the lessons if they agree with your political viewpoint. Dystopian novels tend to be highly divisive plots that cater towards a particular political viewpoint. IMO, it is a poor argument to elevate a work of fiction to some sort of future-predicting status.

Sticking to reality is best. We gotta learn how to avoid the distractions.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby folkhero » Fri May 04, 2012 5:14 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Basically, you only agree with the lessons if they agree with your political viewpoint. Dystopian novels tend to be highly divisive plots that cater towards a particular political viewpoint. IMO, it is a poor argument to elevate a work of fiction to some sort of future-predicting status.

Spoiler:
Image Nope, no future prediction going on here.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri May 04, 2012 1:07 pm UTC

No more than "Atlas Shrugged" predicts the rise of looters and moochers who demand everything be handed to them on a silver platter. (aka: Occupy). BTW: I'm being facetious here. I don't actually believe that, but conservatives do.

Yet you have to sympathize with the cooks who have been besieged by moochers. Behind the hypocrisy, there are real lessons to be learned: lessons about the relationship between productive people and freeloaders. About the need for police to protect decent people from criminals. About how con-men and power-lusters always take over utopian schemes for their own benefit. About the taxing power and unaccountability of central authorities.

The spaghetti Bolognese incident sums it up. The workers who provide the goods everyone else lives off of are going on strike to protest against their exploitation by freeloaders. Has anyone noticed that this is the basic plot premise of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged? Yet that is the story line they are unintentionally acting out. Call it Occupy Wall Street Shrugged.


Spoiler from the May 1st "protest":
Spoiler:
Image


I don't know a single person IRL who actually agrees with Atlas Shrugged. Thats why I'm using it as an example. It is utterly ridiculous for us to compare Occupy to Atlas Shrugged. So why is it fair to compare everything to 1984 as if it were some holy book?


EDIT: Woah... somehow I missed this. I must have skipped over it or something >_< I was wondering why everyone was talking about 1984. I didn't realize that someone was comparing me to it.
addams wrote:For a Two Minute Hate, that was good.

You got the victim and the man that ordered his death all in one outburst.

Do you feel like a fictional character? Like a cheerleader?

Hate and Anger; Hate and indignation; Then a little more Hate.

What?! Was Orwell an Oracle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle


1984 references aside, do you have a point here?

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There is no big brother who's gonna take you down if you disagree with my hate.

This is reality.

Demonstrate your criticism to my post directly. Go on and try defending Osama Bin Laden. Or is your best defense just a work of fiction?

I've already demonstrated my understanding of reality. Bin Laden was a man who attacked the World Trade Center two times, and was plotting a third attack on the US during the very moments when we killed him. Based on the information we took from his house, he still was potentially leading some parts of Al-Queda. Not just as an influential leader, but as an actual micro manager / operational leader.

There aren't very many people who should be killed, but Bin Laden was one of them.

Ghostbear wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:It seems like Bin Laden was trying to become an "honorable warrior" type? He still was trying to plot attacks against civilians, but he didn't want any traitors on his side. Kinda interesting methinks.

It's important to remember that no matter how horrible these people are, they think that what they are doing is right. Following that, what kind of person would want a cause that they (emphasis on "they") see as just to be corrupted by influences they see as negative? Even the most evil person is going to have some qualities that are of the not-evil variety.


Well of course. I don't fully see Bin Laden as an "evil person" persay.

When you understand his interpretation of Islam, it actually IMO holds far more similarities to the anti-gay, super conservative, biblical literalists in this country. (No seriously, read up on Salafism and the more violent Salafist Jihadism) Furthermore, a lot of his reasons were defensive in nature... seeing Israel as the aggressors (the Zionist Regime). He attributes the death of thousands of Iraqis to us because of sanctions. Etc. etc.

But at the end of the day. Bin Laden was a man who declared himself an enemy of the state. He's a man who dedicated himself to killing random innocent civilians just because they lived in USA. Such a man cannot live if we are to be safe.

Its important to remember why Bin Laden attacked us in the first place: the relationship between the US and the Muslim world is poor and people like Bin Laden are a symptom of that. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a man dedicated to damaging the US in any possible way he could think of.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Garm » Fri May 04, 2012 4:48 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Well of course. I don't fully see Bin Laden as an "evil person" persay.

When you understand his interpretation of Islam, it actually IMO holds far more similarities to the anti-gay, super conservative, biblical literalists in this country. (No seriously, read up on Salafism and the more violent Salafist Jihadism) Furthermore, a lot of his reasons were defensive in nature... seeing Israel as the aggressors (the Zionist Regime). He attributes the death of thousands of Iraqis to us because of sanctions. Etc. etc.

But at the end of the day. Bin Laden was a man who declared himself an enemy of the state. He's a man who dedicated himself to killing random innocent civilians just because they lived in USA. Such a man cannot live if we are to be safe.

Its important to remember why Bin Laden attacked us in the first place: the relationship between the US and the Muslim world is poor and people like Bin Laden are a symptom of that. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a man dedicated to damaging the US in any possible way he could think of.


Woah, woah, woah. Stop trying to humanize, understand, and contextualize our enemies. You're raising the level of discourse to the point where I can no longer draw conclusions based on my black and white worldview and it's making me uncomfortable.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat May 05, 2012 6:20 am UTC

Garm wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Well of course. I don't fully see Bin Laden as an "evil person" persay.

When you understand his interpretation of Islam, it actually IMO holds far more similarities to the anti-gay, super conservative, biblical literalists in this country. (No seriously, read up on Salafism and the more violent Salafist Jihadism) Furthermore, a lot of his reasons were defensive in nature... seeing Israel as the aggressors (the Zionist Regime). He attributes the death of thousands of Iraqis to us because of sanctions. Etc. etc.

But at the end of the day. Bin Laden was a man who declared himself an enemy of the state. He's a man who dedicated himself to killing random innocent civilians just because they lived in USA. Such a man cannot live if we are to be safe.

Its important to remember why Bin Laden attacked us in the first place: the relationship between the US and the Muslim world is poor and people like Bin Laden are a symptom of that. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a man dedicated to damaging the US in any possible way he could think of.


Woah, woah, woah. Stop trying to humanize, understand, and contextualize our enemies. You're raising the level of discourse to the point where I can no longer draw conclusions based on my black and white worldview and it's making me uncomfortable.


If it helps, I did just compare Republicans to violent Salafi Jihadism (of which Bin Laden and Al Queda are a part of). If we select "Republicans" as our enemies, that more or less implies that I dehumanized them. :twisted:
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby folkhero » Sat May 05, 2012 7:14 am UTC

Just to be clear, I think that comparing the killing of bin Laden to the two minutes of hate is a particularly poor metaphor. I just wanted to point out that I think it's silly to say that fiction has nothing to teach us about the real world.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat May 05, 2012 3:16 pm UTC

Literary references are extremely useful for communicating a concise point provided both parties have an understanding of the material. IE: its much easier to say "newspeak" or "big brother" to communicate an idea, than it is to describe the whole concept.

The problem with choosing fiction to "teach" about the real world is that I can literally pick and choose any viewpoint I want and use it as a lesson. There are a near infinite amount of fictional material that I can use as a "lesson". Atlas Shrugged remains a core example, because I am pretty sure no one here agrees with it. It is trivial to use the plot of it as a "reason" why you should be an asshole to everyone else and fight for yourself in everything you do. Or why the Occupy movement will destroy America. Or why taxes are inherently evil.

It doesn't make it right. And in this case, the literary reference clouds the debate. Seriously, it is exactly like preaching the bible to the choir. It just doesn't work if your opponent doesn't believe in the bible. Its great for rallying the base, but its terrible for debate.

Again, I'm not against using it as a debate tool. But you've gotta use literary references carefully.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Sat May 05, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I don't know a single person IRL who actually agrees with Atlas Shrugged. Thats why I'm using it as an example. It is utterly ridiculous for us to compare Occupy to Atlas Shrugged. So why is it fair to compare everything to 1984 as if it were some holy book?

The difference is that 1984 is superior to Atlas Shrugged, as both a novel and a piece of political writing. But yeah, it's way overused.


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