Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Saint

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Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Saint

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 5:17 am UTC

For those of you too busy discussing Obama's less famous action of the day. The anointed and holy president of the United States managed to sway the Vatican into finally beatifying Pope John Paul II.
And in full denunciation of the second commandment, or for maximum creepiness factor, they also decided to include a giant f'ing photo of him:

Pope John Paul II is one step closer to sainthood.

Pope Benedict XVI beatified the late Catholic leader on Sunday morning in Rome (the first step in the process of declaring someone a saint). A crowd of 1.5 million gathered in St. Peter's Square to witness the solemn celebration.

A giant photo of a young John Paul II was revealed as the crowd cried and applauded. "He restored to Christianity its true face as a religion of hope," said Benedict in his homily.

"John Paul was a wonderful man and it's a privilege to be here," Anne Honiball, a nursing home administrator from the U.K. told the Associated Press. It's wonderful to see people from all across the world."

"We missed the royal wedding," she continued, "but we are Catholics and this was a bit more important, I suppose."


Also, apparently, in terms of there is more important shit in the world, dead guy one step closer to saint hood > all the horrid shit like the aids epidemic in Africa.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon May 02, 2011 5:25 am UTC

Um, that article says nothing about Obama nor am I sure how Obama could have any influence in the beatification process. I am also unsure what you are referencing in particular with the "horrid shit in Africa".

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby H2SO4 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:26 am UTC

Every time I read the word "beatify" I first read "beautify" and then I have to re-read it.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 5:31 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Um, that article says nothing about Obama nor am I sure how Obama could have any influence in the beatification process. I am also unsure what you are referencing in particular with the "horrid shit in Africa".

A. I think you're rather missing a joke.
B. Starvation, Aids, genocide, et al.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:28 am UTC

Pope John Paul II did a lot for the Catholic church - its membership exploded and reputation soared under his leadership. It's only appropriate he be beatified by his successor.

Also, found guilty of crimes against humanity for the exact same reason. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Sunshine! » Mon May 02, 2011 6:29 am UTC

Yes, but... all that stuff in Africa isn't new. The news would not be making any money if they just continually wrote articles that said, "Yep, Africa's still screwed up. It's still got people with AIDS, like yesterday. Oh look, people are killing other people. Just like yesterday." People don't want that sad depressing stuff all the time, and something like the beatification of John Paul II is a nice feel-good story. He was almost universally liked by sane non-Catholics (I say sane so I can rule out extremists like Westboro Baptist Church and Landover Baptist Church*) soooo yeah. Newsworthy. Just look at the freaking Royal Wedding for another example, though I'd really like to find all those newspaper managers who decided that much coverage was a good idea, light all their hair on fire, and then (once the fire is out) make them wear those godawful hats everywhere they go for the next month or two.

netcrusher88 wrote:Also, found guilty of crimes against humanity for the exact same reason. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.


Which crimes against humanity? I'm asking in seriousness, I don't actually know (not being sarcastic).

*Yes, I know Landover Baptist Church is a joke

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 6:32 am UTC

You see, there's also the issue of the Catholic churches actions and policies towards Africa, particularly with reproductive issues that happens to have exacerbated a certain problem.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:43 am UTC

Advancing the worldwide criminal organization complicit in more child abuse than any other single entity in history? The most powerful organization fighting against the single cheapest, most effective way to slow the spread of AIDS? One of the most powerful and vocal organizations today in the fight against civil rights? An organization that has shown time and again that it would rather its hospitals allow a woman to die rather than perform a procedure that amounts to removing a parasite (abortion of a non-viable fetus), and will deny medical professionals communion (which is, I guess, a big deal if that's your background) if they dare to defy their kill order?

Pick one.

Words cannot express the disgust I feel towards the Catholic church, and that very much extends to its leadership. But only the organization, I do not really feel the same way about most Catholics (except insofar as they help fund it all, but nobody's perfect). I regard them with curiosity; given they are for the most part good people, it baffles me a bit that they are Catholics.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby badmartialarts » Mon May 02, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote: I regard them with curiosity; given they are for the most part good people, it baffles me a bit that they are Catholics.


You have described most Christian's views of atheists. :)

Also, I don't think you can throw the blame on the Catholic Church for Africa's AIDS troubles, when they have plenty of their own beliefs that go far to spread AIDS and I'm about 99% are not Church sanctioned. 'No condoms' doesn't help, though....especially when those condoms are filled with AIDS! (And, that guy is STILL the archbishop of Mozambique.)
Last edited by badmartialarts on Mon May 02, 2011 2:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby AvatarIII » Mon May 02, 2011 2:10 pm UTC

is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:11 pm UTC

I believe I described most people's view of people with different religious beliefs in general. Most religions are mostly harmless though; the Catholic church is actively and incessantly harmful.

And while it's true I can't blame it for the prevalence of AIDS in Africa, I can blame it for standing in the way of efforts to curb that.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

Beatification is not sainthood, it's only the start of the process.

AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

Yeah, about that. Liberius was such a combo breaker.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby AvatarIII » Mon May 02, 2011 3:08 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

Beatification is not sainthood, it's only the start of the process.

AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

Yeah, about that. Liberius was such a combo breaker.


in the last 1200 years there have only been a handful of popes to becomes saints, it seemed to fall out of favour in the 800s going by that list, is JP2 really that much better than all but 4 popes in 1000 years

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

My point was that they can't really start a trend as it already existed.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Belial » Mon May 02, 2011 3:24 pm UTC

Making the guy who aided and abetted child molesters into a saint would sure undermine the whole concept.

I'm not sure whether that's a win or not.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Diadem » Mon May 02, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Sunshine! wrote:He was almost universally liked by sane non-Catholics

Please tell me you are joking. Please please please please. Because if you're not, that is the most naieve and uninformed statement I've read on these boards in a very long time. John Paul II was a very orthodox pope, that held back modernization of the church with an iron fist. He caused immeasurable damage in Africa, and fought the rights of women and sexual minorities everywhere he could.

Pretty much the only positive thing that can be said about him is that he was slightly less evil than his successor.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon May 02, 2011 4:54 pm UTC

Sunshine! wrote:Yes, but... all that stuff in Africa isn't new. The news would not be making any money if they just continually wrote articles that said, "Yep, Africa's still screwed up. It's still got people with AIDS, like yesterday. Oh look, people are killing other people. Just like yesterday." People don't want that sad depressing stuff all the time, and something like the beatification of John Paul II is a nice feel-good story.

*wince*

AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint?

Canonization is recognition that a person is in heaven. I don't think that waiting could ever make this judgment correct.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Heisenberg » Mon May 02, 2011 6:04 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:John Paul II was a very orthodox pope, that held back modernization of the church with an iron fist. He caused immeasurable damage in Africa, and fought the rights of women and sexual minorities everywhere he could.

While JPII was criticized for not modernizing the church fast enough, he was also criticized by traditionalists. The church did modernize during JPIIs tenure, and as Popes go, JPII was not terribly orthodox, especially when contrasted with Benedict XVI.

While he did not change a thousand year-old precedent regarding sexuality, he did condemn any and all sexuality-based discrimination. In addition, JPII was arguable the most pro-woman Pope in history, with his teachings on the Theology of the Body, and his apology for injustices against women, violations of women's rights, and the historical denigration of women.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:While he did not change a thousand year-old precedent regarding sexuality, he did condemn any and all sexuality-based discrimination.

Aside from the Catholic church's continued condemnation and exclusion of queer folk and related/subsidiary organizations' continued refusal to treat them as equal.

In addition, JPII was arguable the most pro-woman Pope in history, with his teachings on the Theology of the Body, and his apology for injustices against women, violations of women's rights, and the historical denigration of women.

Aside from the Catholic church's continued exclusion of women from the priesthood and leadership and opposition to abortion even in cases where the fetus is not conceivably viable and the woman will not survive the pregnancy.

What am I supposed to appreciate again?
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Xeio » Mon May 02, 2011 6:24 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:What am I supposed to appreciate again?
That he was slightly less douchy than his predecessors, which is apparently worthy of sainthood.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Heisenberg » Mon May 02, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:What am I supposed to appreciate again?

I doubt anyone with a hatred of the Church would appreciate any Pope. But a majority of Catholics look favorably on JPII and the way he radically changed the Papacy. That is the political motivation for the timing of his Beatification.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 02, 2011 7:12 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:What am I supposed to appreciate again?

I doubt anyone with a hatred of the Church would appreciate any Pope. But a majority of Catholics look favorably on JPII and the way he radically changed the Papacy. That is the political motivation for the timing of his Beatification.

Nah, I like Liberius, he was such a combo breaker.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby LtNOWIS » Mon May 02, 2011 7:14 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:is it just me or does it feel far too soon to be making him a saint? if he's made a saint this quickly, rather than say 50 years after his death, or something, itjust kind of feels like they are making him a saint just because he was a pope that died, rather than by how memorable or long lasting his exploits as pope were.
it would be pretty silly if this started a trend for all popes to make the previous pope a saint.

Clare of Assisi was canonized only two years after her death.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 02, 2011 8:36 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:What am I supposed to appreciate again?

I doubt anyone with a hatred of the Church would appreciate any Pope. But a majority of Catholics look favorably on JPII and the way he radically changed the Papacy. That is the political motivation for the timing of his Beatification.

I would appreciate a Pope who made a real concerted effort to change the things that are wrong with the Catholic church. JP2 was not that.

Much like I do begrudgingly appreciate what the Log Cabin Republicans try to do with the Republican party.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Sunshine! » Tue May 03, 2011 6:08 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Sunshine! wrote:He was almost universally liked by sane non-Catholics

Please tell me you are joking. Please please please please. Because if you're not, that is the most naieve and uninformed statement I've read on these boards in a very long time. John Paul II was a very orthodox pope, that held back modernization of the church with an iron fist. He caused immeasurable damage in Africa, and fought the rights of women and sexual minorities everywhere he could.

Pretty much the only positive thing that can be said about him is that he was slightly less evil than his successor.

Sure, let's go with uninformed, and I'll certainly apologize for using the term "universally," but if you'd actually read the rest of the thread, you'd have seen this:
Sunshine! wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Also, found guilty of crimes against humanity for the exact same reason. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.


Which crimes against humanity? I'm asking in seriousness, I don't actually know (not being sarcastic).

And then you'd be able to save myself and yourself some time and not post about something that's already been answered by... everyone else in the thread. So... thanks!

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Sunshine! wrote:*snip*

*wince*

I think you're thinking that's the opinion I hold of the matter; it's not. I don't think enough coverage is really given to issues in the developing world. It was a response to this:
Jahoclave wrote:Also, apparently, in terms of there is more important shit in the world, dead guy one step closer to saint hood > all the horrid shit like the aids epidemic in Africa.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Jahoclave » Tue May 03, 2011 6:10 am UTC

I forgot, nuance is dead.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Sunshine! » Tue May 03, 2011 7:16 am UTC

And you killed it. I don't think this method of communication in general, or this subforum in particular, is really geared towards conveying nuance. Or sarcasm. [This is not a sarcastic post]

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby juststrange » Tue May 03, 2011 11:59 am UTC

Beatification and Sainthood are contingent on a number of things. One of the more important is miracles. You have to perform 1 miracle to be beatified, 2 to be sainted.

JPII reportedly cured a nun of her Parkinsons (a miracle), so thats what got him the beatification. Still waiting to see where the second miracle comes in.

The man helped ease catholic-jewish tensions, and preached love for all. Not acceptance of all things, but certainly compassion for all. Thats a seriously positive step from the fire and brimstone of the past. Just because he didn't do everything doesn't mean he didn't do anything worth praising.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue May 03, 2011 1:31 pm UTC

Sunshine! wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Sunshine! wrote:*snip*

*wince*

I think you're thinking that's the opinion I hold of the matter; it's not. I don't think enough coverage is really given to issues in the developing world. It was a response to this:
Jahoclave wrote:Also, apparently, in terms of there is more important shit in the world, dead guy one step closer to saint hood > all the horrid shit like the aids epidemic in Africa.

The wince is because you didn't understand what he's saying about Africa at all.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Heisenberg » Tue May 03, 2011 1:33 pm UTC

juststrange wrote:Beatification and Sainthood are contingent on a number of things. One of the more important is miracles. You have to perform 1 miracle to be beatified, 2 to be sainted.

There's an express lane for martyrs.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue May 03, 2011 1:52 pm UTC

Seems President Garcia of Peru is actually under the impression that killing Osama was JP2's first miracle.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby kadak » Tue May 03, 2011 2:12 pm UTC

I thought this kind of shit wasn't posted in xkcd... the fucking pope ? who cares about a retarded conservative old fart?

Presumably some of the 1.6 billion Catholics in the world care. It's news, whether you personally care or not, so let people discuss it. -Hawk

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby dedwrekka » Tue May 03, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Advancing the worldwide criminal organization complicit in more child abuse than any other single entity in history?

When did they become a criminal organization, and when did any single organization become responsible for the acts of a very very small selection of their people?

The most powerful organization fighting against the single cheapest, most effective way to slow the spread of AIDS?

They aren't fighting against condoms, and they don't target condoms specifically. The Church's ban against birth control is the same ban against non-procreative sex. The church itself doesn't try to shut down condom companies, nor do they try and stop non-Catholics from using them. However, if both the stances on sex were used, and John Paul II's suggestion that people get tested before sex, were used the the proper manner, then it wouldn't be a problem.

The most important reason why your statement is wrong is that religion is entirely a personal decision, and any single person could use condoms or birth control if they wanted to. If you want to go with the Church's stance on sex, then do it, if you only half-ass it and focus on a single aspect, then you get yourself into trouble.
The situation becomes even more muddled though as you go into different regions, because like a language, the Catholic Church has regional dialects where the church has blended with local customs over centuries. What most people see as the Catholic Church is actually the Vatican, which could be very different from whatever regional dialect of Catholicism is local to you.

One of the most powerful and vocal organizations today in the fight against civil rights?

I'm actually interested in this, do you have any examples?

An organization that has shown time and again that it would rather its hospitals allow a woman to die rather than perform a procedure that amounts to removing a parasite (abortion of a non-viable fetus), and will deny medical professionals communion (which is, I guess, a big deal if that's your background) if they dare to defy their kill order?


Personal Choice
A person has personal choice in how their body is used. If a woman believes that it is better to die than to abort a fetus, then it is their choice and they shouldn't feel bad about it unless they think that they should feel bad about it. If they believe it is better to live, then it's their choice and they shouldn't feel bad about it unless they think that they should feel bad about it. If a doctor believes in the Catholic Faith but believes that it is alright in certain cases to abort a child then they do not strictly adhere to the catholic faith, though they do actually follow the Roman Catholic Faith, though they may still follow one of the sub-sects of the Catholic Faith*, but a catholic priest cannot be forced into giving confession any more than a person can be forced into taking it.


*On this in particular there are a number of differing opinions through a number of saints, and a person could follow a certain saint rather than strict Roman Catholicism.

Part of a freedom to choose is the freedom to choose something that someone else will not agree with, and there's nothing that says that a person has to stay with a certain religion (or any) if their beliefs do not coincide with it's tenets. If the person believes that it is the right thing, then you cannot say that it is unfair that they be allowed to make the choice, even if it does not coincide with your own beliefs.

Heisenberg wrote:
juststrange wrote:Beatification and Sainthood are contingent on a number of things. One of the more important is miracles. You have to perform 1 miracle to be beatified, 2 to be sainted.

There's an express lane for martyrs.

There's a faster one for pre-Catholic Gods. Sometimes you get to go straight to being the Mary, Jesus, or Adam and Eve.
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby broken_escalator » Tue May 03, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

dedwrekka wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Advancing the worldwide criminal organization complicit in more child abuse than any other single entity in history?

When did they become a criminal organization, and when did any single organization become responsible for the acts of a very very small selection of their people?

I'm not sure what you meant by that last part. Why do they get a pass on bearing responsibility for their people?

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby dedwrekka » Tue May 03, 2011 9:37 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:
dedwrekka wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Advancing the worldwide criminal organization complicit in more child abuse than any other single entity in history?

When did they become a criminal organization, and when did any single organization become responsible for the acts of a very very small selection of their people?

I'm not sure what you meant by that last part. Why do they get a pass on bearing responsibility for their people?

Why would the entire organization be condemned for the actions of such a tiny number of people, especially when it goes against the teachings and practice of the organization?

Are School Book Depository employees all assassins, because Oswald worked there? Are they held responsible for his actions?
Are clowns all mass murderers because John Wayne Gacy used to dress up as one? Should we constantly think that everyone working as a clown is a killer?
If your boss is a perv, are you one too? How about your co-workers? His boss? When he's removed are they still all perverts?

It's a question of why an entire religion gets blamed for the actions of people who directly go against it's teachings. Just because they were members or some of the thousands of preachers?

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby podbaydoor » Tue May 03, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

Yes, there is a completely free choice involved when one of your choices will lead you to condemnation, excommunication, hellfire, and/or eternity with Satan.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby broken_escalator » Tue May 03, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

dedwrekka wrote:Why would the entire organization be condemned for the actions of such a tiny number of people, especially when it goes against the teachings and practice of the organization?

Bearing responsibility doesn't mean condemning the entire organization.

Sure, I understand where your argument is coming from, and people do hate on religion as a whole as you said. But I asked why did they get a free pass on bearing responsibility for their people. Police have to deal with members that fuck up. Military have to deal with members that fuck up. Why is religion given the free pass on responsibility?

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue May 03, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

dedwrekka wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Advancing the worldwide criminal organization complicit in more child abuse than any other single entity in history?

When did they become a criminal organization, and when did any single organization become responsible for the acts of a very very small selection of their people?

The Catholic church is responsible for shielding hundreds if not thousands of abusers from prosecution. They are responsible for handling accusations by simply moving priests rather than actually investigating them - even priests which had a history. They're responsible for moving accused priests internationally to avoid legal action.

These are criminal actions. They are actions taken throughout the organization. That makes it a criminal organization, and shielding criminals from so much as investigation while shuffling them around to new positions where they continue to commit the same crime is an action which makes them complicit in the latter.

Clear enough for you?
The most powerful organization fighting against the single cheapest, most effective way to slow the spread of AIDS?

They aren't fighting against condoms, and they don't target condoms specifically. The Church's ban against birth control is the same ban against non-procreative sex. The church itself doesn't try to shut down condom companies, nor do they try and stop non-Catholics from using them.

You could make that argument, but you'd lose it. This may be ostensibly true, but the fact is it's manifested as the Catholic church - the Pope himself, even - lying to prevent condom use. By anyone - the Catholic church has opposed the distribution of condoms claiming it will only exacerbate the problem. That's a fucking lie.

The most important reason why your statement is wrong is that religion is entirely a personal decision, and any single person could use condoms or birth control if they wanted to. If you want to go with the Church's stance on sex, then do it, if you only half-ass it and focus on a single aspect, then you get yourself into trouble.

See above. People are going to have sex whether the Pope likes it or not. The Catholic church has actively tried to prevent them being able to do so (relatively) safely.

The situation becomes even more muddled though as you go into different regions, because like a language, the Catholic Church has regional dialects where the church has blended with local customs over centuries. What most people see as the Catholic Church is actually the Vatican, which could be very different from whatever regional dialect of Catholicism is local to you.

There is some variation at the local level, sure. But the actions of the church organization are the actions of the church organization, and the most offensive doctrines are endemic at all levels.

Mostly, individual Catholics vary. As I said, it baffles me that most of them are Catholics. The Catholic church is pretty damn monolithic.
One of the most powerful and vocal organizations today in the fight against civil rights?

I'm actually interested in this, do you have any examples?

Catholic charities, Washington, DC, late 2009.
St. Paul Elementary School, Massachusetts, May 2010

An organization that has shown time and again that it would rather its hospitals allow a woman to die rather than perform a procedure that amounts to removing a parasite (abortion of a non-viable fetus), and will deny medical professionals communion (which is, I guess, a big deal if that's your background) if they dare to defy their kill order?

Personal Choice

What a load of shit. You want to bring personal choice into it. The Catholic church as an organization and the Pope as a figurehead have no interest in personal choice on the matter. The Pope has of late made a habit of excommunicating pro-choice politicians, and archbishops the world around of denying them communion which I guess is more or less the same thing. Oh, and at least one archbishop is on the record saying pro-choice voters shouldn't take communion. I could make an (admittedly weak) argument that's voter fraud.

Found that event I was talking about, by the way: the abortion had by a nine year old girl raped by her stepfather. Her doctors and mother were excommunicated for the crime of saving her life. So tell me, where did her personal choice come into that? The Catholic church would rather have killed her, and in their fucked little view of the world condemned those who saved a little girl's life to hell for eternity.

The search lead me to another event I didn't remember, too: the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_of_Margaret_McBride. In this case, though, not only did they excommunicate a nun who made the only credible decision that saving a life was the ethical choice, they terminated their relationship with the hospital after they refused to agree to not do so again in the future.

Why don't you tell me where any patient's personal choice factors into those. Even if it did, podbaydoor is right.

And you know - I do condemn the entire organization. If any of these things were isolated incidents, I may not. If any of these were, how did you put it, "regional dialect", I might be less against the church as a whole. But they aren't. Every one of these things is a problem endemic to the entire worldwide Catholic church. Worse, to the church they aren't even problems except insofar as they get criticism for them.

Much less important side note: as a former protestant and as someone who recognizes there are a whole lot of self-styled churches, referring to the Roman Catholic one as the capital-C Church offends me a bit. Does anyone else get that or am I just reading too much into the syntax?
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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby TheStrongest » Wed May 04, 2011 2:11 am UTC

Being a recovering Catholic myself, I have a very ambivalent opinion about John Paul II. While I do applaud him for attempting to mend his Church's relationships with those it wronged in the past (Jews, Orthodox Christians, victims of the inquisition and pogroms, Muslims), I cannot support the, in my opinion, puritanical control the RCC tries to exert over its members' personal lives.

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Re: Obama one step closer to making Pope John Paul II a Sain

Postby Wodashin » Wed May 04, 2011 3:43 am UTC

The Pope comes to Catholics in their dreams and bids us to do his wishes, and we are powerless to stop him. It's a hive mind thing. Whenever we try to think for ourselves we suffer intense migraines. The church is just so involved in my personal life, to what I eat, wear, do with my free time, etc. I am in great pain just writing this message. Not only that, we are forced to give them money, because that's what the church does. The organization as a whole, like netcrusher says, is pretty much the mafia only worse and filled with rampant rape and whatnot.

Luckily, people like netcrusher are getting the word out about how terrifying it is being a Catholic. Sometimes I start thinking that 99% of the priests aren't pedophiles, but I try and shake myself out of such preposterous thoughts. Like he says, this stuff is wide spread. Pick any town and you'll find at least 15 cases of child molestation. Not only that, the fact that they won't let some people eat a small circle of bread during mass makes it even worse, because, seriously, fuck that noise.


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