Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

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Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 18, 2011 8:55 am UTC

When will we end the drug war? When will we no longer accept the militarization of our police, and the deaths of innocents?
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby zAlbee » Wed May 18, 2011 9:56 am UTC

Your country and its obsession with guns scare the fuck out of me.

the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 18, 2011 10:11 am UTC

zAlbee wrote:Your country and its obsession with guns scare the fuck out of me.
Guns are not the problem here.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby folkhero » Wed May 18, 2011 10:20 am UTC

A few points about the raid:

-Whoever in the department who said the a deputy's gun misfired has no idea what the fuck that word means,
mis·fire (ms-fr)
intr.v. mis·fired, mis·fir·ing, mis·fires
1. To fail to ignite when expected. Used of an internal-combustion engine.
2. To fail to discharge. Used of a firearm.
3. To fail to achieve an anticipated result: a scheme that misfired.

On the other hand, they probably do know that the word moves the blame from the deputy to the equipment.

-Deputies originally claimed that the victim fired first. They later changed their story when it turned out that the victim's gun was on safe.

-The sheriff's department delayed paramedics for OVER AN HOUR while the victim was dying.

-Clarance Dupnik, the sheriff in charge of the raid, ironically said in January that people like Rush Limbaugh were making people angry against the government, and partially blamed such rhetoric for the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. I'm pretty sure that murdering a man in his own house will cause more anger against the government than some blowhard talking over the radio.

Calling what's happening in the war on drugs 'militarization' is an insult to the military. If these officers had actual military training, what do you think the chances would be of a negligent discharge? These men in the SWAT team were jackboot thugs and, to a man, murderers or accessories to murder.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby zAlbee » Wed May 18, 2011 10:30 am UTC

For some reason, omitted from that story, but linked:

He woke up fast, directed his wife to hide in a closet with their four year old son, grabbed an AR-15 rifle, and headed out to defend his family.

So here we have two parties who have armed themselves with guns, confronting each other. Did you think this would end in hugs and rainbows?

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby el_loco_avs » Wed May 18, 2011 10:42 am UTC

zAlbee wrote:For some reason, omitted from that story, but linked:

He woke up fast, directed his wife to hide in a closet with their four year old son, grabbed an AR-15 rifle, and headed out to defend his family.

So here we have two parties who have armed themselves with guns, confronting each other. Did you think this would end in hugs and rainbows?




That kinda makes it a little less of a fuckup. but still.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby podbaydoor » Wed May 18, 2011 11:07 am UTC

The fuck were they doing for an hour that they had to delay the ambulances for that long?
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Aikanaro » Wed May 18, 2011 11:09 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:The fuck were they doing for an hour that they had to delay the ambulances for that long?

Making sure he wasn't alive to testify/sue? Getting their stories straight?
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed May 18, 2011 1:31 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:When will we end the drug war? When will we no longer accept the militarization of our police, and the deaths of innocents?


I'm mehh on the drug war and militarization of the police. In particular, the powerful Mexican Drug gangs are responsible for thousands of murders a year in Mexico, and if you are going to send in Police to fight these guys, you better be prepared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

The fact that this happened in the border state of Arizona is not surprising to me, and instead speaks volumes about this incident. This all connects back to the issues of illegal immigration, the Mexican Drug War and gang violence. Not that I agree with most of Arizona's decisions, but you need to understand this from their perspective. Especially when popular opinion in the State considers the Federal Government to be inadequate in protecting their borders, it makes sense that they'd equip their police officers to handle this kind of duty.

Regardless of your stance on the Drug War, you have to admit... sending in regular police officers to handle the Drug War in the border state is suicide. The Mexian drug gangs are well armed with AK-47s and Grenade Launchers and relatively well trained, it isn't a stretch to see the day to day drug raids requiring the Swat team. Basically, trying to catch dangerous gang members who happen to be illegal immigrants who deal drugs. Even if the "Drug War" element was removed, we'd still have this issue of dangerous Mexican gangs doing business in Arizona, and the SWAT team would still be used to conduct daily raids.

Now... I admit that I don't know much about the state of Arizona, so a lot of the above is hypothetical. But its the only way that this story makes sense to me. It doesn't excuse the wtf 1-hour holdup of paramedics, or any of the other fuckups or incompetence of the Arizona Swat Team, but it may give some background as to why this raid was conducted in the first place.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Belial » Wed May 18, 2011 1:36 pm UTC

zAlbee wrote:For some reason, omitted from that story, but linked:

He woke up fast, directed his wife to hide in a closet with their four year old son, grabbed an AR-15 rifle, and headed out to defend his family.

So here we have two parties who have armed themselves with guns, confronting each other. Did you think this would end in hugs and rainbows?


Of course, had the armed home-invaders been gangsters instead of cops, this would've been a pretty reasonable course of action. Might even have saved his family's life.

But since they were cops, it's totally his fault for not guessing which group of thugs he was dealing with.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Dauric » Wed May 18, 2011 1:51 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Vaniver wrote:When will we end the drug war? When will we no longer accept the militarization of our police, and the deaths of innocents?


I'm mehh on the drug war and militarization of the police. In particular, the powerful Mexican Drug gangs are responsible for thousands of murders a year in Mexico, and if you are going to send in Police to fight these guys, you better be prepared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

The fact that this happened in the border state of Arizona is not surprising to me, and instead speaks volumes about this incident. This all connects back to the issues of illegal immigration, the Mexican Drug War and gang violence. Not that I agree with most of Arizona's decisions, but you need to understand this from their perspective. Especially when popular opinion in the State considers the Federal Government to be inadequate in protecting their borders, it makes sense that they'd equip their police officers to handle this kind of duty.

Regardless of your stance on the Drug War, you have to admit... sending in regular police officers to handle the Drug War in the border state is suicide. The Mexian drug gangs are well armed with AK-47s and Grenade Launchers and relatively well trained, it isn't a stretch to see the day to day drug raids requiring the Swat team. Basically, trying to catch dangerous gang members who happen to be illegal immigrants who deal drugs. Even if the "Drug War" element was removed, we'd still have this issue of dangerous Mexican gangs doing business in Arizona, and the SWAT team would still be used to conduct daily raids.

Now... I admit that I don't know much about the state of Arizona, so a lot of the above is hypothetical. But its the only way that this story makes sense to me. It doesn't excuse the wtf 1-hour holdup of paramedics, or any of the other fuckups or incompetence of the Arizona Swat Team, but it may give some background as to why this raid was conducted in the first place.


Problem is it doesn't just happen in Arizona.

As Belial points out, if it's a "No-Knock" warrant/raid situation there's no way for the homeowner to know who's beating down the door.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Wed May 18, 2011 2:41 pm UTC

Every single one of them should lose their jobs and be tried for manslaughter or accessory to same... Won't happen though;
There'll be an 'Investigation' it'll be an 'accident', no specific officer will be named as responsible and they'll all retain their SWAT status and firearms priveledges.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Technical Ben » Wed May 18, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

This is why, if someone knocks down my door, I'm offering them a cup of tea first.
If it's police, they accept. If it's thieves, my wallet is the next thing to be offered.

Deep respect for the guy defending his family though. He had no way to know what was going on, but kept them safe.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby mmmcannibalism » Wed May 18, 2011 6:47 pm UTC

From the report, how can the police justify having fired 71 times?

Hopefully this keeps some weed off the streets though, because that justifies x number of deaths where x is a really really big number.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby scrovak » Wed May 18, 2011 6:56 pm UTC

I didn't see where they specified the warrant type. It could very well have been a no-knock warrant. If that was the case, then after being rudely awakened after 15 minutes of sleep following 12 hours in a mine by unknown, heavily armed subjects kicking in my door, several of them would have been dispatched by the AR. The Marine was even practicing extra gun safety by leaving his safety on (presumably) until he could identify targets and whether or not they needed to be shot.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Gellert1984 » Wed May 18, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

Technical Ben wrote:This is why, if someone knocks down my door, I'm offering them a cup of tea first.
If it's police, they accept. If it's thieves, my wallet is the next thing to be offered.

Deep respect for the guy defending his family though. He had no way to know what was going on, but kept them safe.


He didn't get to the door, he was shot in the kitchen.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Garm » Wed May 18, 2011 7:14 pm UTC

The drug war is such a blight on society. Legalize and tax, assholes.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Belial » Wed May 18, 2011 7:20 pm UTC

Garm wrote:The drug war is such a blight on society. Legalize and tax, assholes.


Man, but then what will assholes do when they want to play soldier without having to travel or sleep in a barracks?
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Tirian » Wed May 18, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Every single one of them should lose their jobs and be tried for manslaughter or accessory to same...


*shrug* If the guy standing in the window with the AR-15 had been with a Mexican drug cartel lookout instead of a citizen exercising his constitutional right to self-protection, then firing 71 rounds into him would have been the right decision. I'm all for calling folks out on police misconduct, but I can't quite imagine how a SWAT agent could have made the correct assessment here without putting their own lives in jeopardy.

If I'm looking for some murderers here, then my search would be for the person who approved sending a paramilitary unit into such a vague mission where there was such a significant risk to civilians.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 18, 2011 7:28 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Garm wrote:The drug war is such a blight on society. Legalize and tax, assholes.


Man, but then what will assholes do when they want to play soldier without having to travel or sleep in a barracks?


Use SWAT on corporate crime? White collar criminals don't shoot back, or at least I've never heard of any that do.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Technical Ben » Wed May 18, 2011 7:31 pm UTC

Gellert1984 wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:This is why, if someone knocks down my door, I'm offering them a cup of tea first.
If it's police, they accept. If it's thieves, my wallet is the next thing to be offered.

Deep respect for the guy defending his family though. He had no way to know what was going on, but kept them safe.


He didn't get to the door, he was shot in the kitchen.


Oh, I did not mean to suggest he did the wrong thing. Just how I would respond. If your shot through the door, that's not really giving you many options.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Dauric » Wed May 18, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Every single one of them should lose their jobs and be tried for manslaughter or accessory to same...


*shrug* If the guy standing in the window with the AR-15 had been with a Mexican drug cartel lookout instead of a citizen exercising his constitutional right to self-protection, then firing 71 rounds into him would have been the right decision. I'm all for calling folks out on police misconduct, but I can't quite imagine how a SWAT agent could have made the correct assessment here without putting their own lives in jeopardy.

If I'm looking for some murderers here, then my search would be for the person who approved sending a paramilitary unit into such a vague mission where there was such a significant risk to civilians.


By the time SWAT were on-scene the fatal mistake had already been made at the bureaucratic level by the issuance of the relevant warrants. The responses by SWAT and the Ex Marine were as close to pre-determined as you can get when two forces of highly combat-trained individuals meet in hostile conditions.

Unfortunately the article doesn't go in-depth in to the warrant process used, or how the "Multi-House" raids were executed, or results in any of the other residences so raided.

Other relevant thread
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 18, 2011 7:38 pm UTC

I'm not sure if less-lethal weapons would've prevented this (electric shotgun slug or whatever), or the "safety" would cause so many more incidents that even more people are killed.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Belial » Wed May 18, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:By the time SWAT were on-scene the fatal mistake had already been made at the bureaucratic level by the issuance of the relevant warrants. The responses by SWAT and the Ex Marine were as close to pre-determined as you can get when two forces of highly combat-trained individuals meet in hostile conditions.


Though, I mean, not to repeat ourselves, but there's that bit where they delayed the paramedics. If you wanted to look at a place where the cops themselves fucked up large rather than their superiors, I'd look there.

"I'm bleeding to deeeeeaaaaath"

"Not now, we're brainstorming how to explain that you were actually completely a threat so none of us look bad"

"Can you do that when I'm not dying?"

"No, hush, our jobs are on the line"
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby mosc » Wed May 18, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

It's an interesting case but the thread opening link sucks. It has no detail on the important legal stuff like "what was their warrant for?" or "what proof did they have justifying a swat team?". The story doesn't give enough detail to actually say the marine was innocent either. Not enough information.

And 71 bullets, the guy was probably dead with or without an ambulance, lets be honest here. Phasers were clear not set to stun.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby savanik » Wed May 18, 2011 8:04 pm UTC

mosc wrote:And 71 bullets, the guy was probably dead with or without an ambulance, lets be honest here. Phasers were clear not set to stun.


Out of those 71 bullets, probably only 2 or 3 actually hit him. It's quite possible he would have survived with prompt medical attention. The delay really is quite unconscionable.

I admit some sympathy for the police's initial response, though. If you see a guy running towards you with an AR-15 in hand, if you take the time to ask, 'Hable espanol?' you're probably going to get answered in automatic gunfire. That's not a risk anyone, police or not, wants to take.

Of course, if this had not been a no-knock warrant, or if police had clearly identified themselves on entering the home, repeatedly and loudly, say, with bullhorns, all of this could have been avoided. Senseless, tragic, easily preventable.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby mosc » Wed May 18, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Yeah, you don't use SWAT for subtle situations. It's a sledgehammer designed for jobs so dangerous and so deadly that maximum aggression is justified. The risk of civilian casualties when wielding a weapon like that is understandably high, as is the risk of death for those who serve. SWAT may have been used in a situation where it should not have been but you have to respect those people putting their lives on the line in high pressure situations where people sitting on their ass get the luxury of second guessing their split second decisions for months on end...

Swat is the gun. If you have a problem with who they shot, it's more likely a problem with the shooter. The pen behind the sword.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Dauric » Wed May 18, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Dauric wrote:By the time SWAT were on-scene the fatal mistake had already been made at the bureaucratic level by the issuance of the relevant warrants. The responses by SWAT and the Ex Marine were as close to pre-determined as you can get when two forces of highly combat-trained individuals meet in hostile conditions.


Though, I mean, not to repeat ourselves, but there's that bit where they delayed the paramedics. If you wanted to look at a place where the cops themselves fucked up large rather than their superiors, I'd look there.


I'd be hesitant about making that call without knowing the layout and size of the residence. EMTs are generally prohibited from entering a crime scene until the area is clear of hostiles/suspects/etc. to prevent them from being casualties/hostages themselves. Now in excess of an hour to clear a house for potential hostiles... I make a little less than $40k/year and I'm looking at buying a house in the 2,500 Sq Foot range and it takes about half an hour to look one over for obvious flaws at a fairly brisk pace, but by a similar token I'm not looking under beds or searching for hidden attic entrances or people in crawlspaces (though one house had a dead squirrel in an otherwise inaccessible basement that my agent and I took some time trying to figure out how the sucker got in.) much less searching in such a way that assumes hostiles. Also most of the houses I've been looking at are Bank Owned, which means the house is vacant. It was easy to see that dead squirrel since there wasn't the usual basement clutter down there. It takes longer to really look at a house where someone is still in residence (though I hate intensively looking at those, it feels intrusive).

mosc wrote:It's an interesting case but the thread opening link sucks. It has no detail on the important legal stuff like "what was their warrant for?" or "what proof did they have justifying a swat team?". The story doesn't give enough detail to actually say the marine was innocent either. Not enough information.


This is the thing. The article makes it sound like a warrant was issued for the entire neighborhood, and that's troubling if that was the case. I suspect that like the Ismael Mena case in Denver, this is going to make Arizona take a closer look at the laws these kinds of raids are set up and performed under.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby IcedT » Wed May 18, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

Walking out with an AR-15 was just asking for trouble, but still... what the fuck SWAT? SEVENTY-FUCKING-ONE bullets?

Fucking Pima County. Goddamn.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Nath » Wed May 18, 2011 8:28 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Though, I mean, not to repeat ourselves, but there's that bit where they delayed the paramedics. If you wanted to look at a place where the cops themselves fucked up large rather than their superiors, I'd look there.

"I'm bleeding to deeeeeaaaaath"

"Not now, we're brainstorming how to explain that you were actually completely a threat so none of us look bad"

"Can you do that when I'm not dying?"

"No, hush, our jobs are on the line"

While 74 minutes is completely excessive, some delay is to be expected. They've got to make damn sure there's nobody else around before they can let paramedics in. I don't know how much of a delay is par for the course in these situations.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Gellert1984 » Wed May 18, 2011 8:32 pm UTC



Spoilered are links to relevant articles on the Arizona Daily Star's website. Linked for information purposes.

The warrants, evidence seized and related documentation have been sealed.

4 houses in total were raided.

No information will be forthcoming until an investigation is concluded.

The raid involved multiple agencies.

No reason is given for stopping EMT's from helping Guerena, who was shot about the hands and chest. According to the article, 60 out of the 71 rounds hit Guerena. It is not made clear in the article whether Guerena was fired on by police outside the building, or those in the process of raiding the building.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Роберт » Wed May 18, 2011 8:40 pm UTC

From those articles:
"Tucson is notorious for home invasions and we didn't want to look like that," said Lt. Michael O'Connor of the Pima County Sheriff's Department. "We went lights and sirens and we absolutely did not do a 'no-knock' warrant."

It looks like a he-said/she said on the way the raid was performed.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby folkhero » Wed May 18, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Every single one of them should lose their jobs and be tried for manslaughter or accessory to same...


*shrug* If the guy standing in the window with the AR-15 had been with a Mexican drug cartel lookout instead of a citizen exercising his constitutional right to self-protection, then firing 71 rounds into him would have been the right decision. I'm all for calling folks out on police misconduct, but I can't quite imagine how a SWAT agent could have made the correct assessment here without putting their own lives in jeopardy.

If I'm looking for some murderers here, then my search would be for the person who approved sending a paramilitary unit into such a vague mission where there was such a significant risk to civilians.

The people who ordered the raid certainly share some of the responsibility, the SWAT officers are in no way free from blame. Lets just look at what the Sheriff's department was reporting. First they said that the victim fired first; this turned out to be a blatant lie, but it would certainly be the official story if the victim had fired his gun at some point, even if it was after he was fired on. Now, why would they have made this lie if not to cover their own asses because they know they made the wrong decision to kill this man? Their second story is that a SWAT officer accidentally fired his gun, which set off all the other shooting(actually they said the gun misfired, because we all know how often well maintained firearms discharge for no reason). Assuming that this story is true, and not another ass-covering lie, that means that at least one of the officers was grossly n egligent and incompetent and that negligence lead to a person's death. There is a term for that: negligent manslaughter. If that 2nd story isn't true, then it means that they are lying to cover their own asses because they know they did something wrong. There is also the fact that they didn't allow him medical treatment for well over an hour.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Роберт » Wed May 18, 2011 8:45 pm UTC

folkhero wrote: Lets just look at what the Sheriff's department was reporting. First they said that the victim fired first; this turned out to be a blatant lie, but it would certainly be the official story if the victim had fired his gun at some point, even if it was after he was fired on.

This is sadly ringing very true to me.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby IcedT » Wed May 18, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

Also- a man's been through two tours of duty in a combat zone, and the police department's decision is to send in men with black masks and automatic weapons? What is... I don't even...

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby mosc » Wed May 18, 2011 8:58 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:There is also the fact that they didn't allow him medical treatment for well over an hour.

A guy with 60 bullets in him does not need medical treatment. SWAT was perfectly capable of determining the individual in question as diseased and rendering ambulance services a secondary priority. That is nothing new or unique or incorrect. They shoot to kill in lots of engagements. That's why they're SWAT. They are quite capable of determining if an ambulance would have some use. Denying a paramedic access to a crime scene where no LIVING person is injured is not negligence.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Dauric » Wed May 18, 2011 9:03 pm UTC

IcedT wrote:Also- a man's been through two tours of duty in a combat zone, and the police department's decision is to send in men with black masks and automatic weapons? What is... I don't even...


From a purely intel analysis perspective the fact that he's been through two tours of combat duty only means he's potentially dangerous, he has after all been trained to react to combat situations. There's plenty of examples of ex and currently serving military personnel that have become addicted to illicit substances while overseas, and some that have decided that their military training makes it easy to make a quick buck in smuggling. (there was a Discovery or History channel program recently about the drug wars, and one of the 'ride alongs' caught three soldiers smuggling large quantities of marijuana packed in to standard U.S. issue gear bags.)

SWAT would have been briefed on this, which probably put them more on edge... Double edged there, on one hand if it really is a threat they need to be cognizant of that, but on the other, what actually happened.

Like Mosc said, SWAT is a sledgehammer. They're not investigative, their job is -supposed- to start -after- the investigators have done their job and the judge has signed off that he's satisfied in the quality of the investigator's work. When SWAT hits the door it's long, long past time for investigating the situation.
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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Tirian » Wed May 18, 2011 9:05 pm UTC

mosc wrote:SWAT was perfectly capable of determining the individual in question as diseased and rendering ambulance services a secondary priority.


:shock: That is the most unfortunate misspelling I'm going to see all week.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby IcedT » Wed May 18, 2011 9:07 pm UTC

mosc wrote:A guy with 60 bullets in him does not need medical treatment. SWAT was perfectly capable of determining the individual in question as diseased and rendering ambulance services a secondary priority. That is nothing new or unique or incorrect. They shoot to kill in lots of engagements. That's why they're SWAT. They are quite capable of determining if an ambulance would have some use. Denying a paramedic access to a crime scene where no LIVING person is injured is not negligence.
Did you read the articles? A call was sent in but they prevented response units until he was already dead, using a variety of bullshit excuses. This was not a large house and besides the Marine, there was a woman and a toddler. Either they're bastards or they're impossibly negligent or both.

daric wrote:From a purely intel analysis perspective the fact that he's been through two tours of combat duty only means he's potentially dangerous, he has after all been trained to react to combat situations. There's plenty of examples of ex and currently serving military personnel that have become addicted to illicit substances while overseas, and some that have decided that their military training makes it easy to make a quick buck in smuggling. (there was a Discovery or History channel program recently about the drug wars, and one of the 'ride alongs' caught three soldiers smuggling large quantities of marijuana packed in to standard U.S. issue gear bags.)

SWAT would have been briefed on this, which probably put them more on edge... Double edged there, on one hand if it really is a threat they need to be cognizant of that, but on the other, what actually happened.
Soooo you agree that sending SWAT was far more likely to lead to a violent confrontation than if this manner had been handled professionally by regular cops?

daric wrote:Like Mosc said, SWAT is a sledgehammer. They're not investigative, their job is -supposed- to start -after- the investigators have done their job and the judge has signed off that he's satisfied in the quality of the investigator's work. When SWAT hits the door it's long, long past time for investigating the situation.

They were apparently servicing search warrants against several houses. Sounds like investigator's work to me.

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Re: Marine serves two tours in Iraq, killed by SWAT.

Postby Dauric » Wed May 18, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

IcedT wrote:
daric wrote:From a purely intel analysis perspective the fact that he's been through two tours of combat duty only means he's potentially dangerous, he has after all been trained to react to combat situations. There's plenty of examples of ex and currently serving military personnel that have become addicted to illicit substances while overseas, and some that have decided that their military training makes it easy to make a quick buck in smuggling. (there was a Discovery or History channel program recently about the drug wars, and one of the 'ride alongs' caught three soldiers smuggling large quantities of marijuana packed in to standard U.S. issue gear bags.)

SWAT would have been briefed on this, which probably put them more on edge... Double edged there, on one hand if it really is a threat they need to be cognizant of that, but on the other, what actually happened.
Soooo you agree that sending SWAT was far more likely to lead to a violent confrontation than if this manner had been handled professionally by regular cops?


Completely, and especially in this circumstance where both the homeowner, and the SWAT team were trained to react to combat situations. I have a friend who's ex-marine, and if a no-knock was executed on my apartment when he's over I have no doubt that he would react to the threat the way he was intensively trained to react to combat situations.

daric wrote:Like Mosc said, SWAT is a sledgehammer. They're not investigative, their job is -supposed- to start -after- the investigators have done their job and the judge has signed off that he's satisfied in the quality of the investigator's work. When SWAT hits the door it's long, long past time for investigating the situation.

They were apparently servicing search warrants against several houses. Sounds like investigator's work to me.


That's not how SWAT works though. SWAT secures the site, makes sure any occupants are secured or neutralized, and a quick search for any obvious threats (booby-traps, bombs, etc.). Once SWAT is finished securing their objectives -then- detectives and investigating officers go through the house taking pictures and securing evidence that -confirms the suspicions- they operated on to get the warrant in the first place.

The thing is the warrant itself is -supposed- to mean that a certain legal threshold of proof has been reached with regards to the suspect. Observed hand-off of drug packages, attempts to buy/sell from undercover officers, recorded phone taps discussing deliveries and payoff amounts, routine meetings with known drug smugglers, etc., etc., ... The Judge isn't supposed to sign off on it unless all the checkboxes have been ticked and verified that 'Yep, they've done their homework'.

Now in this case the warrants have been sealed so there's no way for us random jack@$$es on the intertubes to know if there's misleading information (IE: a 'regular contact with a known drug smuggler' may have been them playing Poker every weekend or something, and had nothing to do with drug smuggling), so it's hard to say. However in similar cases it usually works out that the investigators took shortcuts or relied on anonymous tips for information that should have been independently verified long before any SWAT ops were set in motion.
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