German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

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German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri May 20, 2011 1:32 pm UTC

Pretty much what the title says...

I don't quite know what to say...

The company says that it is "not the usual way of rewarding employees", that the party "was a mistake" and that the replacement of the person responsible "had a very personal commitment" to not hiring 20 prostitutes for their staff.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri May 20, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

What, were we expecting this not to happen?
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 2:11 pm UTC

And it turns out that prostitutes actually have customers.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Lucrece » Fri May 20, 2011 2:17 pm UTC

Talk about incentives :lol:
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 2:32 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Talk about incentives :lol:

I dunno, a scheme like this doesn't sound too attractive to me. Imagine the situation: you're a salesman of the company, and you have to go to a party with 99 of your colleagues, where you take turn with the 20 prostitutes who get a stamp on their arm to show how often they have been used. I would feel seriously awkward.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby broken_escalator » Fri May 20, 2011 2:43 pm UTC

We agreed on no eye contact. :evil:

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Aikanaro » Fri May 20, 2011 2:54 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Talk about incentives :lol:

I dunno, a scheme like this doesn't sound too attractive to me. Imagine the situation: you're a salesman of the company, and you have to go to a party with 99 of your colleagues, where you take turn with the 20 prostitutes who get a stamp on their arm to show how often they have been used. I would feel seriously awkward.

You could also argue that it's unfair to those who are in committed relationships, particularly marriage. You're offering rewards, except for those who are married and don't want to deal with legal repercussions. :roll:
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 3:00 pm UTC

I suspect that is the point, really. For this part of the business at least they want salesmen who live for the job and are more than ready to break the rules. If they just wanted to encourage them, they'd give them cash. This is about creating a certain vibe in the business.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Dauric » Fri May 20, 2011 3:17 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:I suspect that is the point, really. For this part of the business at least they want salesmen who live for the job and are more than ready to break the rules. If they just wanted to encourage them, they'd give them cash. This is about creating a certain vibe in the business.


I don't think this is about "creating" a certain vibe in the business as it is that their sales force, in order to be rewarded, has to sacrifice so much of their personal time and autonomy that it's difficult to have any relationships outside of their work. The office is filled with single guys with "no time" for a relationship, and to one of these guys that made it to an administrative level rewarding them with hookers seems like a good idea.

In other words it's the business environment that encourages hookers, and not the hookers that encourage the business environment.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby the_bandersnatch » Fri May 20, 2011 3:29 pm UTC

"The women wore red and yellow wrist bands. One lot were hostesses, the others would fulfil your every wish.

"There were also women with white wrist bands. They were reserved for board members and the very best sales reps."

"After each such encounter the women were stamped on the lower arm in order to keep track of how often each woman was frequented,"


You can tell it was a German orgy, it was very efficiently planned.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

Was in Hungary.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Moo » Fri May 20, 2011 3:47 pm UTC

I also like how this highlights the company's positive attitude towards women and how well represented they must be in the sales force.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri May 20, 2011 4:00 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:What, were we expecting this not to happen?
Zamfir wrote:And it turns out that prostitutes actually have customers.


Sarcastic forumites are sarcastic! [slow, derisive clap]
But as quickly established, this underlines a signigifcant issue; depening on how you see the causality of the whole mess either a business is actively trying to encourage risky, amoral behavour and a lack of serious interpersonal relationships in its staff members... or a buisness has a culture and working practices which de-facto demands risky, amoral behavour and a lack of serious interpersonal relationships... and that's not even starting on the attitude (should that be attidude?) to women problems or the fact that not only did corporate governance measures fail to stop this supposedly rogue incident, but that there were members of the board in attendance!

Clearly something is very fucked up!
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 4:15 pm UTC

Yeah, it's sick. A lot of sales is sick, based on old-boys mutual bonding rituals like visiting brothels together. It's what expensive brothels in every city of the world run on.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Dauric » Fri May 20, 2011 4:24 pm UTC

Sales, at it's most basic level (and this includes advertising), assumes people are livestock. Sheep is a fairly adequate description; an animal to be "shorn" of anything of value, put back out to pasture to grow more before taking their value again.

I went to a graphic design school (because I have some modest talent at illustration), I've been around people that actually liked advertising, and that's how they talk about -you-.

It's also how they talk about themselves.

So:
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, it's sick. A lot of sales is sick...


Yes, yes it is.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 20, 2011 5:34 pm UTC

Why was I applying for Swiss Re when I could've been applying to Munich Re all along?

But anyway, did they use condoms at least? I don't know how popular condoms are over in Europe, but knowing some sales people, I wouldn't want to use the prostitute they just used without a condom (or at all; condoms can only protect against diseases that travel only through bodily fluids).
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri May 20, 2011 5:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Роберт » Fri May 20, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

Did they have anything for gay salesmen or straight saleswomen?
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Lucrece » Fri May 20, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

Hmmm, were all the prostitutes women? Still can't wrap my mind around it, corporate orgy-- seems like something out of genre porn. Although anything involving suits is pretty hot >_>;
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Dark567 » Fri May 20, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Did they have anything for gay salesmen or straight saleswomen?

Having worked in the American business world where sales reps will often take clients to strip clubs.... probably not.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 20, 2011 5:55 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Hmmm, were all the prostitutes women? Still can't wrap my mind around it, corporate orgy-- seems like something out of genre porn. Although anything involving suits is pretty hot >_>;


Yay, we agree on something!

Also, red plaid skirts.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri May 20, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But anyway, did they use condoms at least? I don't know how popular condoms are over in Europe, but knowing some sales people, I wouldn't want to use the prostitute they just used without a condom (or at all; condoms can only protect against diseases that travel only through bodily fluids).


Now I don't have experience here; but from what I've heard from knowing a few too many people with low-brow tastes and big stag-do budgets condoms are wildly popular with european prostitutes. That makes sense as their sexual health is their livelyhood and any VD\STD\STI would be a big financial, emotional and in regulated countries - legal headache for them.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 20, 2011 5:59 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:But anyway, did they use condoms at least? I don't know how popular condoms are over in Europe, but knowing some sales people, I wouldn't want to use the prostitute they just used without a condom (or at all; condoms can only protect against diseases that travel only through bodily fluids).


Now I don't have experience here; but from what I've heard from knowing a few too many people with low-brow tastes and big stag-do budgets condoms are wildly popular with european prostitutes. That makes sense as their sexual health is their livelyhood and any VD\STD\STI would be a big financial, emotional and in regulated countries - legal headache for them.


Good to know; avoid the illegit prostitutes like the plague (that they probably have).

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Mittagessen » Fri May 20, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

News about stuff like this happening gets out rather regularly over here although it's usually a more selective circle of company representatives participating (and smaller scale). Siemens and Volkswagen had similar scandals a few years back. It's probably the equivalent of taking the clients out to a strip club in the US. But who actually cares? It's not like orgies are the root cause of the chauvinistic atmosphere in those companies. They're, at least on my opinion an expression of one the many aspects of corporate corruption, starting with company cars and private retreats for executives.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Dark567 » Fri May 20, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

Mittagessen wrote:. It's probably the equivalent of taking the clients out to a strip club in the US. But who actually cares?

Thats basically what I equated it too, but I still care. Although for that matter every time a sales guy invites a bunch of guys to a strip club, a large portion always turn it down, and it doesn't ever seem to affect their careers. So not going to strip club doesn't really seem to hurt careers. Now being a teetotaler on the other hand.....
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby jules.LT » Fri May 20, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

Mittagessen wrote:News about stuff like this happening gets out rather regularly over here although it's usually a more selective circle of company representatives participating (and smaller scale). Siemens and Volkswagen had similar scandals a few years back. It's probably the equivalent of taking the clients out to a strip club in the US. But who actually cares? It's not like orgies are the root cause of the chauvinistic atmosphere in those companies. They're, at least on my opinion an expression of one the many aspects of corporate corruption, starting with company cars and private retreats for executives.

Is it corruption if it's a reward for your own employees?? There are several ways in which it can be considered immoral, but I don't see what law it breaks.
Giving stuff to corporate clients beyond a place where you can discuss business at ease (and I don't see how a strip club could qualify), on the other hand...
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby buddy431 » Fri May 20, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:
Mittagessen wrote:News about stuff like this happening gets out rather regularly over here although it's usually a more selective circle of company representatives participating (and smaller scale). Siemens and Volkswagen had similar scandals a few years back. It's probably the equivalent of taking the clients out to a strip club in the US. But who actually cares? It's not like orgies are the root cause of the chauvinistic atmosphere in those companies. They're, at least on my opinion an expression of one the many aspects of corporate corruption, starting with company cars and private retreats for executives.

Is it corruption if it's a reward for your own employees?? There are several ways in which it can be considered immoral, but I don't see what law it breaks.
Giving stuff to corporate clients beyond a place where you can discuss business at ease (and I don't see how a strip club could qualify), on the other hand...

Yeah, I largely agree. Giving rewards to successful employs is a pretty standard and accepted practice. I'd have a lot more problem with this if they were hiring prostitutes for their potential clients, from a corruption side of things. From a moral perspective, this is certainly indicative of a male-dominated corporate culture, but it's a symptom, not a cause.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Mittagessen » Fri May 20, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

buddy431 wrote:Yeah, I largely agree. Giving rewards to successful employs is a pretty standard and accepted practice. I'd have a lot more problem with this if they were hiring prostitutes for their potential clients, from a corruption side of things. From a moral perspective, this is certainly indicative of a male-dominated corporate culture, but it's a symptom, not a cause.


I didn't want to imply that the act of having an orgy with prostitutes is in any way immoral (I couldn't care less what happens between consenting adults). Munich Re accepted bailout loans from the German government so I personally believe they should be more... frugal with what could be considered excessive benefits for their employees (I personally consider most benefits like company cars etc. even under normal circumstances little more than managment level enrichment).
Additionally, most similar scandals in the past had more to do with organizing sex trips for potential private and government sector clients.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 20, 2011 11:25 pm UTC


Is it corruption if it's a reward for your own employees?? There are several ways in which it can be considered immoral, but I don't see what law it breaks.
Giving stuff to corporate clients beyond a place where you can discuss business at ease (and I don't see how a strip club could qualify), on the other hand...

The problem runs deeper. Why do people assumed that a brothel is a good reward for most of their employees? Most likely, because their salesmen are used t taking customers to brothels, so the company already knows their salesmen visit brothels. But why do you take customers to brothels, instead of simply bribing them?

That's the nasty part of sales. You want to build up a relationship, especially a trusting relationship with your customer's representatives, and they with you. You want to know the other side has your back, so when management wants you to arrange something quick, you know you can call the other side and they will arrange it, and in return you will do them favours.

How do build such a relationship? At first, you go out for diner, talk about stuff, get to know each other. Everyone with a job involving client relationships knows this. It's good for business. Next step, go boozing. Open up, tell things you would not ordinarily tell, let go of your guard. Become mates, even if you are still perfectly aware you are buyer and seller. It's the grease of business. Most companies do this, if you send in an expense containing lots of booze with a relationship, finance will be surprisingly easy.

Next step, do immoral things together. This is real salesman territory, and only in particular markets. Something I have no interest in getting close to, but some people specialize in it. Doing something together on the border of accepted morality is a great way to build trust, especially if it involves base desires. Strip clubs, dope, prostitutes, small-scale bribes to and forth. You're building up this feeling of being in it together.

Scary thing is, it might well work. Good salesmen (including the sleazy type) not only sell well, they really establish close links between businesses. Business relations are always under strain from small and large irritants, and it really pays to have someone able to call the other side and ask 'What's the real story behind those complaints about the c-10 pumps? You can tell me, I won't use it against you'. And apparently, it sometimes really helps if the other side thinks 'Charlie's is reasonably trustworthy on things like this, he's a good guy, we had a laugh when we shared that hooker in Dusseldorf'.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Diadem » Fri May 20, 2011 11:44 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:You could also argue that it's unfair to those who are in committed relationships, particularly marriage. You're offering rewards, except for those who are married and don't want to deal with legal repercussions. :roll:

Of all the good arguments against this, that is not really one of them. Compare it with a company giving away engraved fountain pens as a present. Is this unfair to people who already have one, or who don't like writing with them? Not really. when you give presents there's always the risk some of the recipients already have or are not intested in what you are giving them. That doesn't make it unfair. Doesn't matter if you're giving away fountain pens or women.

The fact that they have the kind of company culture where giving away women as presents is acceptable on the other hand, that is a problem.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby netcrusher88 » Sat May 21, 2011 2:34 am UTC

Diadem wrote:The fact that they have the kind of company culture where giving away women as presents is acceptable on the other hand, that is a problem.

I'd break that up a bit. The fact they have a corporate culture where giving away sex as a performance bonus is a thing, that's one problem. The fact they have one so hetero-male normative that renting 20 female bodies for a party is a thing... well, that's another (just as big in my opinion) and far more widespread.

That's a terrible way to phrase it, renting female bodies. On a lot of levels. I mean that that bit - that would apply to strippers too. Hiring people as objects, not people. ...I hope I'm making more sense than I think I am.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Sat May 21, 2011 3:03 am UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
Diadem wrote:The fact that they have the kind of company culture where giving away women as presents is acceptable on the other hand, that is a problem.

I'd break that up a bit. The fact they have a corporate culture where giving away sex as a performance bonus is a thing, that's one problem. The fact they have one so hetero-male normative that renting 20 female bodies for a party is a thing... well, that's another (just as big in my opinion) and far more widespread.

That's a terrible way to phrase it, renting female bodies. On a lot of levels. I mean that that bit - that would apply to strippers too. Hiring people as objects, not people. ...I hope I'm making more sense than I think I am.


Normally, you rent out the use of your mind, skills, time, etc. Prostitution is renting out your genitals as well.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat May 21, 2011 3:39 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:Yeah, it's sick. A lot of sales is sick, based on old-boys mutual bonding rituals like visiting brothels together. It's what expensive brothels in every city of the world run on.

Hence my lack of surprise, yeah. This is modern business in some departments: live for the job, and the good old boys will get you some floozies. Yes, it's sick, yes, it's immoral, yes, it disgusts us. But it's entirely predictable and will keep happening until an actual effort is made to change it beyond simply gasping in shock.
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Outchanter » Sat May 21, 2011 10:00 am UTC

Роберт wrote:Did they have anything for gay salesmen or straight saleswomen?

If the gender ratio is balanced among the straight salesmen and saleswomen, they could hold an orgy without any "hired assistance". And the gay salesmen could hold an orgy just by themselves!

Funny realization of the day: Randall's TV Romantic Drama Equation also applies to salesmen orgies.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby dumbzebra » Sat May 21, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

Oh Germany, my mother, you never cease to embarrass me!
Anyway, funny thing is, it was probably perfectly legal
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 22, 2011 12:37 am UTC

It's perfectly legal to cover yourself in marshmallow fluff and run around telling people you are the Michelin Man, but if a major company had 100 people doing that it'd receive a lot of publicity.

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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sun May 22, 2011 1:20 am UTC

I know some of my friend would be jealous that they weren't invited. That's the big deal
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Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Zamfir » Sun May 22, 2011 8:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It's perfectly legal to cover yourself in marshmallow fluff and run around telling people you are the Michelin Man, but if a major company had 100 people doing that it'd receive a lot of publicity.

I am pretty sure Michelin regularly paid people to run around in a costume saying they were the Michelin man.

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Lucrece
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Lucrece » Sun May 22, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It's perfectly legal to cover yourself in marshmallow fluff and run around telling people you are the Michelin Man, but if a major company had 100 people doing that it'd receive a lot of publicity.


Must. Resist. The. Urge.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

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Mabus_Zero
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:30 am UTC

Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby Mabus_Zero » Mon May 23, 2011 3:38 pm UTC

My kind of company. That's what I call thinking outside the box.
Image

Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

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CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: German insurer 'Munich Re' held orgy for salesmen!

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 23, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

Or inside the box. 20 of them.

I couldn't resist


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