In other news... (humorous news items)

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Nylonathatep
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Nylonathatep » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm UTC

U.S. farmer eaten by his own pigs

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/artic ... s-own-pigs

A family member found Garner’s dentures and pieces of his body in the hog enclosure several hours later, but most of his remains had been consumed, District Attorney Paul Frasier said. Several of the hogs weighed 318 kilograms or more.

It’s possible Garner had a medical emergency, such as a heart attack, or was knocked over by the animals, then killed and eaten, Frasier said, adding that at least one hog had previously bitten Garner.

The possibility of foul play is being investigated as well.


Awww piggies!! Oink Oink :)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Red Hal » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:47 pm UTC

We eat them, they eat us. Seems like a fair exchange.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adam H » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:43 pm UTC

Computer rental companies spy on custumers; FTC asks them not to do it any more, please ok thx.
The FTC alleged in an administrative complaint that the retailers used a software product branded as “PC Rental Agent’’ to track the location of computers rented to consumers. But the product also had the ability to capture screenshots of consumers' personal financial and medical information, log their keystrokes, and shoot webcam pictures of consumers in their homes. FTC investigators also found evidence of some retailers using the technology in highly intrusive ways to record family activities and couples engaged in intimate relations.

. . .

Under the proposed settlement orders, DesignerWare and the RTO stores would be prohibited from using monitoring software such as Detective Mode and other deceptive schemes for gathering information from consumers. The firms would also be barred from using geolocation tracking without notice and consent from consumers. The RTO stores would be prohibited from using any improperly gathered information in connection with their consumer debt collection activities.

As far as I can tell, that's the only "punishment" - being forbidden from continuing to break the law.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Computer rental companies spy on custumers; FTC asks them not to do it any more, please ok thx.
The FTC alleged in an administrative complaint that the retailers used a software product branded as “PC Rental Agent’’ to track the location of computers rented to consumers. But the product also had the ability to capture screenshots of consumers' personal financial and medical information, log their keystrokes, and shoot webcam pictures of consumers in their homes. FTC investigators also found evidence of some retailers using the technology in highly intrusive ways to record family activities and couples engaged in intimate relations.

. . .

Under the proposed settlement orders, DesignerWare and the RTO stores would be prohibited from using monitoring software such as Detective Mode and other deceptive schemes for gathering information from consumers. The firms would also be barred from using geolocation tracking without notice and consent from consumers. The RTO stores would be prohibited from using any improperly gathered information in connection with their consumer debt collection activities.

As far as I can tell, that's the only "punishment" - being forbidden from continuing to break the law.



I once worked with one of the people being sued in this case...wow small world.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:17 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Computer rental companies spy on custumers; FTC asks them not to do it any more, please ok thx.
The FTC alleged in an administrative complaint that the retailers used a software product branded as “PC Rental Agent’’ to track the location of computers rented to consumers. But the product also had the ability to capture screenshots of consumers' personal financial and medical information, log their keystrokes, and shoot webcam pictures of consumers in their homes. FTC investigators also found evidence of some retailers using the technology in highly intrusive ways to record family activities and couples engaged in intimate relations.

. . .

Under the proposed settlement orders, DesignerWare and the RTO stores would be prohibited from using monitoring software such as Detective Mode and other deceptive schemes for gathering information from consumers. The firms would also be barred from using geolocation tracking without notice and consent from consumers. The RTO stores would be prohibited from using any improperly gathered information in connection with their consumer debt collection activities.

As far as I can tell, that's the only "punishment" - being forbidden from continuing to break the law.

As the 'we're too soft on crime crowd' would say, that sort of punishment isn't going to deter anyone from pulling this kind of crap in the future...
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby yurell » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:00 pm UTC

We're too soft on white-collar crime. A lot of places go overboard on blue-collar crime, though.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:08 pm UTC

Steal a hundred dollars, return the money and go to prison; steal a hundred million dollars, keep the money and go to Maui.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

Not true at all! If you steal $100m, you have to give $20m back and promise never to do any more crime again.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:26 pm UTC

I really should be working right now, but somehow I don't have the energy.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:13 am UTC

Well clearly any woman that had a period is a murderer.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Diadem » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:46 am UTC

I may be misinformed, but isn't that how the start of pregnancy is usually defined though? Not because people think pregnancy starts before conception, but because you don't know when conception was, but you do know when the last menstruation was.

I thought the 'due date' was always based on last menstruation, for example.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Eseell » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:53 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I may be misinformed, but isn't that how the start of pregnancy is usually defined though? Not because people think pregnancy starts before conception, but because you don't know when conception was, but you do know when the last menstruation was.

I thought the 'due date' was always based on last menstruation, for example.

That's my understanding. I only know that thanks to Sex Nerd Sandra.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:06 am UTC

True or not, defining it that way for the Arizona law is not the norm and is using legal gymnastics to bend the law in ways it wasn't intended to be bent. It's like arguing that since 'life begins at conception', any American can buy alcohol at age 20 and 3 months.


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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:02 am UTC

Most (as in, all the ones I know of in the Caribbean and UK, and I remember when this article came out a few months ago, the ones in the US too, but I'm willing to accept that some countries might do it differently) ob/gyns use date from last period as how they estimate gestation age. This is because it is easy, a lot more accurate than estimating ovulation, and when you're trying to reconfirm how far along a woman is towards the end of the pregnancy (and trying to work out if you need to induce) it's something she's more likely to remember the date of (especially as patients get mixed up between what you tell them for their due date and what you tell them for the date that they're full term all the time).

Getting outraged over people defining well known medical terms is pointless.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:19 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:True or not, defining it that way for the Arizona law is not the norm and is using legal gymnastics to bend the law in ways it wasn't intended to be bent. It's like arguing that since 'life begins at conception', any American can buy alcohol at age 20 and 3 months.


They can, they just need to leave the country first.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:27 pm UTC

Sort of like how you can get abortions if you live in Kansas; just leave the state. Or same-sex marriage in Oklahoma; again, leave the state.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:12 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Sort of like how you can get abortions if you live in Kansas; just leave the state. Or same-sex marriage in Oklahoma; again, leave the state.


Exactamundo.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:44 pm UTC

Ontario couple uses Apple software to track down stolen laptop — find it at neighbours house

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/03 ... urs-house/

On Sunday, a Sarnia couple came home to find their basement apartment ransacked and their electronics missing.

The victims swiftly turned to another computer to log onto “Find My Mac,” a free app that pinpoints a device’s location through local WiFi signals.

“Astonishingly, they learned their computer was in the immediate vicinity of their residence,” read a statement by the Sarnia police released Tuesday. “In fact, it was right next door.”


Have you installed 'Find My Mac', or "LoJack" on your computer yet?

Also... I wonder if they got similar Software for Desktops.


Autism definition to be enlarged as Asperger’s diagnosis disappears

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/artic ... disappears

“As a scientific medical diagnosis, Asperger’s is merged into autism spectrum disorder,” said Lord. “Our committee felt there just wasn’t any way to justify its continuance.”

Lord is part of the American Psychiatric Association’s working group responsible for updating the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a guide used by physicians around the world. Improved diagnosis leads to better treatment.

“There was so much confusion of who had Asperger’s and who didn’t. We were also concerned that there were kids being denied services because Asperger’s sounds like a better diagnosis,” she said.


Maybe this will stop the self-diagnosed Asperger craziness.

‘Petoskey Batman’ arrested after refusing to clear crime scene

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/03 ... ime-scene/

“We didn’t want the dog to track Batman instead of the accident scene, and he was getting in the way of officers who had a job to do,” the sergeant said.

Williams wasn’t carrying any dangerous weapons, but his costume and gear were confiscated, Gorno said. He was charged with resisting and obstructing police in an investigation, and he posted bond and was released from the county jail. He is due back in court Oct. 18.


Nananannananananananannanan NA!!!!
Last edited by Nylonathatep on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:21 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mike-l » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:21 pm UTC

addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:03 pm UTC


This story has been repeated on a few other websites, but most of them aren't major news sources and this blog suggests that it was just a rumour.

My mistake. Here's a story that of actual concern...in Canada.

I'm all for self-defense, but does expanding the conditions for 'citizen arrests' really increase self-defense?

I mean, such measures aren't necessarily a bad thing when the person making the 'citizen's arrest' is using common sense, but common sense isn't always exercised. The professor in the article also notes that these laws may be redundant given recent court rulings. Rhetoric Filled Response in the Comments.

That political professor should try living in the real world and not just speak from a cloistered cocoon of learning where the elite of this country have such wonderful benefits. This store keeper was defending his vegetable patch when a repeat help-yourself character made off with the veggies. So what happened? The hard-working businessman was arrested, paid a fortune for legal representation, lost days of business, was inconvenienced severely with court appearances, loss of income, fearful for his future, shamed by the arrest, etc. So, Mr. Professor, who was the real loser in this fiasco. Thank goodness we have a government who is going to protect the little man and woman from those who always got a slap on the wrist after eating all the stolen bananas. And who paid for his legal representation?


To note, the 'Honest Hard-Working Businessman', David Chen, performed his citizens arrest an hour after the thief, Anthony Bennett, had stolen something from his store. Mr. Bennett had called the police for a theft a few days before and it took them five hours to show up. This time around, his response was to tie the man up and tossed him in a delivery van. The articles about the incident don't mention what he did with the man afterwards, but it did end with him being charged with unlawful confinement and assault, charges that were eventually dropped after a lengthy court case.

I mean, some people just seem to think our justice system is too soft on crime, and maybe that's true, but are more severe punishments really the answer? And how much power can we give to people to 'take the law into their own hands' before it becomes excessive? Necessary Force? Lethal Force? Angry Mobs? Or is it that in a conflict between a criminal and a victim the victim is 'always right' and no degree of force is 'too much' (like the man who knocked an armed robber unconscious with one shot, then walked over to him and killed him with a second shot to the head)?

Oh, and bonus from the comments.

Canadians need to have to the right to use excessive force when it comes to protectiing our homes when home invaders come in.


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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby nitePhyyre » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:13 pm UTC

Yai! Sugar!

Triangle_Man wrote: The professor in the article also notes that these laws may be redundant given recent court rulings. Rhetoric Filled Response in the Comments.
The article wrote: "Myer Siemiatyki, a politics professor at Ryerson University, questions whether the law even needs changing, given that the courts actually upheld the arrest made by Chen"

This new law is about not arresting Chen. The fact that Chen's arrest of the other guy was upheld, does not make a law to prevent future Chen's from being arrested. There is no redundancy. Especially considering that the judge ruled "However, the judge in Chen's case called the one-hour issue a 'red herring,' saying the thief had gone back for more loot." So there isn't actually any binding precedent set by this case. So it double not redundant.

I'm definetely not conservative, but I find Canada falls on the wrong side of castle doctrine. We have a 'duty to flee'.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:04 pm UTC

So both myself and the guy in the comments who told the professor to 'actually live in the real world' misinterpreted said Professor's comment?

And okay. I think I may have misinterpreted the law being proposed. My major concern was that the changes could create situations where someone making a citizen's arrest on the mere suspicion of a crime protected by the law. That isn't likely, though; reading it again, the effects of the new bill would basically only increase the length of time a Citizen's Arrest could be legally made, so I was likely worrying about nothing and cannot see anything terribly wrong with this bill.

Or maybe I wasn't. Anyone who wants to correct me on that is free to do so.

I also looked up the 'Castle Doctrine'. I'm guessing that the right to defend your home and how much force/what tactics you're allowed to use in doing so is another ongoing issue? And are you implying that Canada is a bit too restrictive on Self-Defence Laws?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:06 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I'm all for self-defense, but does expanding the conditions for 'citizen arrests' really increase self-defense?

I mean, such measures aren't necessarily a bad thing when the person making the 'citizen's arrest' is using common sense, but common sense isn't always exercised.


More importantly, expanding citizen's arrest rights are necessary legal groundwork for Batman.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:53 pm UTC

Earth’s magnetic field overdue for a chaos-causing (possibly life-altering) flip

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/03 ... ring-flip/

Scientists say earth’s magnetic field is weakening and could all but disappear in as little as 500 years as a precursor to flipping upside down.

It has happened before – the geological record suggests the magnetic field has reversed every 250,000 years, meaning that, with the last event 800,000 years ago, another would seem to be overdue.

“Magnetic north has migrated more than 1,500 kilometres over the past century,” said Conall Mac Niocaill, an earth scientist at Oxford University. “In the past 150 years, the strength of the magnetic field has lessened by 10 percent, which could indicate a reversal is on the cards.”


Just wondering if there's any truth in this article.

Dying star shows all its cosmic glory in NASA photo

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/04 ... asa-photo/

Spoiler:
Image


A dying star is throwing a cosmic tantrum in this combined image from NASA’s Spitzer Space Telescope and the Galaxy Evolution Explorer, provided by NASA Wednesday Oct. 3, 2012. In death, the star’s dusty outer layers are unraveling into space, glowing from the intense ultraviolet radiation being pumped out by the hot stellar core. This object called the Helix nebula, lies 650 light-years away in the constellation of Aquarius.


New dinosaur discovery a cross between ‘a bird, a vampire and a porcupine’

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/04 ... porcupine/

The strange-looking species, which Sereno has named Pegomastax africanus, or “thick jaw from Africa,” lived between 100 million and 200 million years ago.

“I describe it as a bird, a vampire and a porcupine,” Sereno said. It had the weight of a small house cat and stood less than a foot off of the ground.

It had a thick jaw and a blunt beak with a “heightened tooth that sticks down, dagger-like,” Sereno said. He said it would have been part of one of three groups that form the base of the dinosaur tree.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:28 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:It had a thick jaw and a blunt beak with a “heightened tooth that sticks down, dagger-like,” Sereno said. He said it would have been part of one of three groups that form the base of the dinosaur tree.


I didn't realise that "vampire, bird and porcupine" were the groups that form the base of the dinosaur tree.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:32 pm UTC

Maybe the dinosaurs evolve from present day animals, develop time travel, and end up dead in the past?

IT COULD HAPPEN.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Steax » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:47 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
Scientists say...



I wish people realized that making up a line like this simply requires a sufficiently drunk/insane/indifferent scientist from the age of 7 or older, and convincing them to say whatever you want.

Not to say this has no merit, but I do think people need to understand that "Scientists say" is as meaningful as "Someone said".
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Radical_Initiator » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:49 pm UTC

Steax wrote:
Nylonathatep wrote:
Scientists say...



I wish people realized that making up a line like this simply requires a sufficiently drunk/insane/indifferent scientist from the age of 7 or older, and convincing them to say whatever you want.

Not to say this has no merit, but I do think "Scientists say" is probably as meaningful as "Someone said".

So ... some have said that "scientists say" is really more or less equivalent to something some might have said?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:Earth’s magnetic field overdue for a chaos-causing (possibly life-altering) flip

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/03 ... ring-flip/

Scientists say earth’s magnetic field is weakening and could all but disappear in as little as 500 years as a precursor to flipping upside down.

It has happened before – the geological record suggests the magnetic field has reversed every 250,000 years, meaning that, with the last event 800,000 years ago, another would seem to be overdue.

“Magnetic north has migrated more than 1,500 kilometres over the past century,” said Conall Mac Niocaill, an earth scientist at Oxford University. “In the past 150 years, the strength of the magnetic field has lessened by 10 percent, which could indicate a reversal is on the cards.”


Just wondering if there's any truth in this article.


It's impossible to predict magnetic field reversals. The cartoon story is that the dipole weakens and then reverses polarity every 250,00 years, but there are several problems with this account, the most important of which is the variance on that number. Chrons (polarity eras) are nowhere near uniform in length. The longest one we know about is the cretaceous superchron, which lasted 40 million years. The field is not really a dipole, but the dipole term usually dominates, and assuming it's dipolar simplifies discussions and analysis. When it starts to 'weaken', though, things get more complicated and it becomes unclear whether its best analyzed as a wandering dipole or simply a more complex field. Sometimes the pole wanders away from north and then returns, sometimes it wanders all the way south. There's no way to know whether it will go all the way south until after the fact

When transitions do occur, they take ~1000 years (huge variance again) and the field never really fades to zero, but becomes less dipolar. This makes it difficult to talk about the 'strength' of the field because it can no longer be described by a single number. It's not easy to analyze exactly how strong the field is when averaged over the whole Earth because there are not enough usable rock samples to make complete field maps of different eras.

There is no consensus on exactly why the field reverses (physics-wise). There are numerical and physical simulations of magnetic fluid eddies (liquid sodium in rotating spherical containers, extremely dangerous), but you can only get them to behave like the Earth's field if you use parameters that are many orders of magnitude different from what are believed to realistic. Some of these simulations show reversals, some don't. Contrary to The Core, Earth's core is not spinning with respect to the mantle, although it probably oscillates just a little. Some whole-Earth seismologists would disagree, but even they would only estimate a maximum rotation of about 1 degree per year. Geomagnetists point out that such a rotation would cause electrojets at the Earth's equator that should be measurable but are not observed.

Fun fact: the north geographic pole is magnetically a south pole. Almost every illustration you seen of the Earth's magnetic field in a textbook shows it as a bar magnet with magnetic north pointing at geographic north. It's actually more similar to a disk magnet with magnetic south pointing at geographic north.

Also, the fading of the Earth's field during a reversal does not leave us unprotected from cosmic rays, as is commonly feared. These are scattered by the atmosphere, not blocked by the magnetic field. We would be more exposed to the solar wind, but the increased risk of cancer over a lifetime is estimated to be roughly equivalent to smoking a pack a day for one year, which is not that bad. Satellites would be more likely to be damaged, though.

Edit:
the article wrote:The European Space Agency is taking the issue seriously. In November, it plans to launch three satellites to improve our fairly blurry understanding of the magnetosphere.

The project – Swarm – will send two satellites into a 450 kilometre high polar orbit to measure changes in the magnetic field, while a third satellite 530 kilometres high will look at the influence of the sun.


The Swarm mission has little or nothing to do with the possibility of impending reversals. It will measure spatial variations and very short-term temporal variations of the field in order to make more detailed maps of the current magnetic field. It will tell us nothing at all about how likely the field is to reverse.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:39 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Yai! Sugar!

I'm definetely not conservative, but I find Canada falls on the wrong side of castle doctrine. We have a 'duty to flee'.



That's not at all true.

Section 40 of the criminal code of canada states:

40. Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority.

In short, threats of violence, actual violence, and up to and including lethal violence are allowed to be applied if this is what is necessary to prevent someone from entering a dwelling-hose without lawful authority. The trick is convincing a jury that your actions were required to prevent such.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:42 pm UTC

If I see a bunch of klansmen on my front lawn burning a cross, does the Castle Doctrine allow me to pick 'em off with a rifle?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:55 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If I see a bunch of klansmen on my front lawn burning a cross, does the Castle Doctrine allow me to pick 'em off with a rifle?


In Canada, we don't have 'real' castle doctrine. If they try to enter your home, you can totally plug them.

If they're standing out there, sipping a beer beside their burning cross, or lounging on chairs... Less so... But it's a grey area.

Here's the relevant document. You're looking for the areas around section 40.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... lText.html

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:Section 40 of the criminal code of canada states:

40. Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority.

In short, threats of violence, actual violence, and up to and including lethal violence are allowed to be applied if this is what is necessary to prevent someone from entering a dwelling-hose without lawful authority. The trick is convincing a jury that your actions were required to prevent such.
Yeah, then why didn't you bring up any cases? Or better yet, a statistical analysis of cases?

If you look at people getting arrested, I think you'll find that "justified in using as much force as is necessary" is (almost) always "none, you could have fled". Whenever people defend themselves, they are arrested and tried. You always need a trial to determine whether the force applied was 'necessary' or 'excessive'. If the only way to not get arrested is to use no force, I call that 'duty to flee'. It is, at best, extremely extremely weak castle doctrine.

Either way, if you defend yourself in your home and then have to defend yourself at a trial, I maintain we fall on the wrong side of castle doctrine.

OTOH, it could simply be that the news only reports the times when the laws is misapplied. I could see that bias happening in me. So yeah, statistical analysis?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:05 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Either way, if you defend yourself in your home and then have to defend yourself at a trial, I maintain we fall on the wrong side of castle doctrine.


Eh. If arrests and trials aren't done routinely for people claiming self defense or castle doctrine, then you end up with George Zimmermans.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:25 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Yeah, then why didn't you bring up any cases? Or better yet, a statistical analysis of cases?

If you look at people getting arrested, I think you'll find that "justified in using as much force as is necessary" is (almost) always "none, you could have fled". Whenever people defend themselves, they are arrested and tried. You always need a trial to determine whether the force applied was 'necessary' or 'excessive'. If the only way to not get arrested is to use no force, I call that 'duty to flee'. It is, at best, extremely extremely weak castle doctrine.

Either way, if you defend yourself in your home and then have to defend yourself at a trial, I maintain we fall on the wrong side of castle doctrine.

OTOH, it could simply be that the news only reports the times when the laws is misapplied. I could see that bias happening in me. So yeah, statistical analysis?


Well, you sort of have to have an investigation... You can't just say "This guy was on my property, so I shot him dead", and the police take you at your word without any investigation to determine if you were actually being truthful. What if the person was someone you invited over and then just murdered? Even if you kill someone in self-defense, you can still be charged with murder--self-defense is an affirmative defense that the accused can claim in order to be acquitted of the charges. There is some discretion by the Crown as to whether or not they want to go ahead to trial based on the facts of the case, but, yeah, you're probably at least going to be arrested.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby omgryebread » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:34 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Yeah, then why didn't you bring up any cases? Or better yet, a statistical analysis of cases?

If you look at people getting arrested, I think you'll find that "justified in using as much force as is necessary" is (almost) always "none, you could have fled". Whenever people defend themselves, they are arrested and tried. You always need a trial to determine whether the force applied was 'necessary' or 'excessive'. If the only way to not get arrested is to use no force, I call that 'duty to flee'. It is, at best, extremely extremely weak castle doctrine.

Either way, if you defend yourself in your home and then have to defend yourself at a trial, I maintain we fall on the wrong side of castle doctrine.

OTOH, it could simply be that the news only reports the times when the laws is misapplied. I could see that bias happening in me. So yeah, statistical analysis?
Wait, you (rightly) call him out on not citing any cases, and then you... don't cite any cases?

R. v. Forde
R. v. Cain

Both uphold that a jury cannot consider an ability to retreat when deciding whether lethal force is allowable. From the first case (emphasis mine):
[55] Having regard to these authorities, I reject the Crown’s position that while retreat from one’s own home is not a necessary element to claiming self-defence, it may nonetheless be a factor for the jury to consider. By giving an instruction along the lines the Crown suggests, the danger would always remain that the jury would all too quickly leap from the factor of retreat to the inference that there is no entitlement to self-defence. As the case law referred to above establishes, a jury is not entitled to consider whether an accused could have retreated from his or her own home in the face of an attack (or threatened attack) by an assailant in assessing the elements of self-defence under s. 34(2).


According to these cases, the relevant section isn't 40 like stevey_frac quoted, but 34(2).

(2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if

(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and

(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm.


A stastical analysis would be nice, but common law doesn't work like that. If the case law is mixed, then it's interesting, but one theory should still win out over the other at some point. Presumably that's for your Supreme Court to decide. (It's stare decisis, any decision they made on the issue would be binding.)

CorruptUser wrote:If I see a bunch of klansmen on my front lawn burning a cross, does the Castle Doctrine allow me to pick 'em off with a rifle?
In Canada, from my understanding of the Criminal Code, no. You need to reasonably believe you're at risk of death or bodily harm. In the US, it may depend on state, but most probably have the same requirement as Canada. Though of course, you could argue that a bunch of klansmen burning a cross on your front yard gives you reason to fear for your life.

An important thing to remember about self-defense is that it's a legal defense: the burden of proof is on you, the defendant. You have to prove that you had a reasonable belief that you were threatened, instead of the prosecution proving that your belief wasn't reasonable.


I am not a lawyer, in the US or Canada, and this doesn't constitute legal advice.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Shivahn » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:45 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:Either way, if you defend yourself in your home and then have to defend yourself at a trial, I maintain we fall on the wrong side of castle doctrine.


Eh. If arrests and trials aren't done routinely for people claiming self defense or castle doctrine, then you end up with George Zimmermans.

There is a pretty big difference between the Zimmerman incident and any case where castle doctrine is applicable.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:23 am UTC

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive ... nhancement

a few experts make quotes on the future of human enhancement, I thought it was kind of interesting.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Arrian » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:34 pm UTC

Hey guys, we've been doing it wrong! We shouldn't be skeptical of data mined research because, apparently, "correlation does not imply causation" is just a tired phrase trolls use to avoid meaningful discussion.

There are even graphs, so it must be true!


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