In other news... (humorous news items)

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LaserGuy
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:47 pm UTC

Buying it second-hand doesn't generally benefit the creators either. You're just subsidizing someone else's purchase.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Fire Brns » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby PeteP » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.

You can just delete the pirated copy when your self defined acceptable test period expires.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Fire Brns » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:11 pm UTC

Do you expect a majority of people to do that? It breaks down to: "free stuff with no immediate added effort or consequences" or "drop some cash into something I already 'own' when I could buy nachos with same money"?

I know this dilemma very well, I was raised a cheap bastard. I have to force my morality to override my desire to save a few bucks. A lot of people who had reason to pirate in the first place generally started with tight purse strings and it just becomes habit to do even when income increases.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:27 pm UTC

*shrug* I pirated music a lot in college. Haven't done it in many a year now. 'course, I have much more money now than in college. Even there, though, I bought some software, music etc. If piracy was unavailable, my total demand could not have risen to the amount of media I consumed...I simply did not have much in the way of money. I'd merely have consumed less.

However, the stuff I pirated then definitely did influence the stuff I purchased later. In fact, I went back and made an effort to purchase copies of the stuff I really liked. Seemed only fair.

Some people hold up piracy like a boogyman, or as some wonderful tool. It's really not completely either. Yes, piracy is a wonderful publicity option...but the content creator eventually needs that publicity to translate into sales. Publicity with only more piracy resulting would do no good. Yet, on the flip side, piracy does not always(or even usually, IMO) represent lost sales.

I like this approach. It reaches out to and engages pirates. Gives them food for thought. Much better than treating the whole situation like a war.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mike-l » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.


Both these actions, from an economic point of view, hurt* the developer equally as pirating the game, or, also as equally, as just never buying the game.

*This is not to imply any morality or legality
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:45 pm UTC

Games with demos are very much a dying breed*, and publishers seems more than happy to kill the used (and by extension, loaned) game market - particularly with PC games, which I assume are both the most pirated and the most sold in digital-only form. Steam's solution - cheap sales in the same price brackets as used games - isn't awful, but there really isn't much way to try a game before you put down cash these days. Does piracy drive some sales? I am sure it does, and anyone who argues otherwise is being disingenuous at best. Increasing total sales is a completely different question, one that is rather hard to answer.

Anecdote time: I used to pirate a lot of games, and I don't think I ever went on to purchase most of those. Now I have enough disposable income that I'd rather spend a few dollars on Steam to have a game just work without messing around with keygens and no CD cracks and iffy software, and the games I choose to buy now are (I think) fairly influenced by the games I used to play. I'd be curious if there's been any research done around a "bad for games, good for game industry" theory.

*As of this writing, none of the 10 newest releases on Steam has a demo, though one is free to play. Of the top sellers, 2 are not released yet, and none of the other 8 have demos. If we extend that to top-20 for each, Kerbal Space Program appears in the top sellers and becomes the sole game to have a demo*. There is, naturally, some amount of overlap, but I think it's fairly representative.

*Thanks, HarvesteR
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Роберт » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:15 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.


Both these actions, from an economic point of view, hurt* the developer equally as pirating the game, or, also as equally, as just never buying the game.

*This is not to imply any morality or legality

Yeah, libraries are totally anti-authors. :roll:
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:18 pm UTC

XCom had a demo.


Funny story, I couldn't find MoO2 anywhere. So I downloaded the demo. But the demo WAS the full game, just with a different exe file. So I just used the official patch. Bam, free full game, technically legal!
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:19 pm UTC

Libraries pay publishers a licensing fee IIRC.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Роберт » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:25 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Libraries pay publishers a licensing fee IIRC.

...I can't find anything remotely close to that for regular books. Even eBooks can be "owned" by a library: http://lj.libraryjournal.com/2012/10/op ... insider/#_

“This is our business model: we sell copies of our ebooks to an approved list of library wholesalers, and those wholesalers are supposed to resell them to libraries. In our view, this purchase constitutes ownership of the book by the library. It is not a license.”
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Fire Brns » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:55 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.


Both these actions, from an economic point of view, hurt* the developer equally as pirating the game, or, also as equally, as just never buying the game.

*This is not to imply any morality or legality
The secondhand market was/is a big part of the industry, because it is a subsidy to people who may otherwise not buy future games. Half the used console games you find at a secondhand store are Madden/NBA/MLB '10/'11/'12 and the people that want these newest game tend not to keep their old games. So they will sell off last year's old games to be able to afford this year's new games.

The temporariness of borrowing over pirating the game is the most important. If you have to pay before you play the (full) game (after getting a taste of it) it's a stronger motivator than pirating to try it out and then saying "I'll pay for it eventually". Even as in Tyndmyr's example of going back to buy it much later it relies on a strong will of effort.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:59 pm UTC

The pros and cons of the used game industry isn't clear cut. Developers don't see a penny of the used game market, so it cuts into their sales. i.e. 2 people buy a game at release vs 1 guy buys a game, and then resells it after he's done. However, games lose value as they age anyway.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adam H » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Ottawa 'accidentally misplaces' $3,100,000,000 in anti-terrorist funds.

"It was there a minute ago," says Auditor-General Michael Ferguson.

[Treasury Board President Tony Clement] pointed out that some of the spending – from 2001 to 2006 - went back to the "previous Liberal government."
So whose fault is it REALLY? :roll:
-Adam

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Yoshisummons » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:05 pm UTC

Buying used games would not be a problem if it was worse than buying it full priced (when was the last time you bought a used car that worked as good as brand new). I think problem for the high piracy rate is the low re-playability of the game, I mean it'd make a fun couple hours of dicking around video gaming history(become a big publisher of adult pornographic games on the commodore64), similar to being a war crazed Gandhi in Civ5. Hardly worth the money for someone who subsist on Ramen noodles. As for the lack of demos, there is no problem in waiting until after the game launches and watching someone on YouTube or Twitch playing the game to see if it is worth playing now. Which is why a lot of publishers are really pushing the pre-order deals.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby johnny_7713 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:06 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Libraries pay publishers a licensing fee IIRC.

...I can't find anything remotely close to that for regular books. Even eBooks can be "owned" by a library: http://lj.libraryjournal.com/2012/10/op ... insider/#_

“This is our business model: we sell copies of our ebooks to an approved list of library wholesalers, and those wholesalers are supposed to resell them to libraries. In our view, this purchase constitutes ownership of the book by the library. It is not a license.”


Whatever the proper legal term, Dutch libraries pay a small fee whenever a (dead-tree) book is lent out. That money then goes (via a coordinating agency) to the publishers and authors. I imagine other countries have similar arrangements. The library certainly owns the physical copies of the book, by they are not allowed to just lend them out without paying the copyright holder.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:12 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Libraries pay publishers a licensing fee IIRC.

...I can't find anything remotely close to that for regular books. Even eBooks can be "owned" by a library: http://lj.libraryjournal.com/2012/10/op ... insider/#_

“This is our business model: we sell copies of our ebooks to an approved list of library wholesalers, and those wholesalers are supposed to resell them to libraries. In our view, this purchase constitutes ownership of the book by the library. It is not a license.”


Depends on the country, I guess. It's called a public lending right. Often they only support local authors though...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Роберт » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Роберт wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Libraries pay publishers a licensing fee IIRC.

...I can't find anything remotely close to that for regular books. Even eBooks can be "owned" by a library: http://lj.libraryjournal.com/2012/10/op ... insider/#_

“This is our business model: we sell copies of our ebooks to an approved list of library wholesalers, and those wholesalers are supposed to resell them to libraries. In our view, this purchase constitutes ownership of the book by the library. It is not a license.”


Whatever the proper legal term, Dutch libraries pay a small fee whenever a (dead-tree) book is lent out. That money then goes (via a coordinating agency) to the publishers and authors. I imagine other countries have similar arrangements. The library certainly owns the physical copies of the book, by they are not allowed to just lend them out without paying the copyright holder.

Wow, that's really weird. I'm from the U.S. and I didn't think to check the laws of other countries. In the U.S., if you buy a book, you don't have to pay any royalties to lend it out.

I guess calling it a "foreign concept" to me is appropriate. :P

So yeah, I was totally talking about U.S. Libraries.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Fire Brns » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The pros and cons of the used game industry isn't clear cut. Developers don't see a penny of the used game market, so it cuts into their sales. i.e. 2 people buy a game at release vs 1 guy buys a game, and then resells it after he's done. However, games lose value as they age anyway.

But the game is generally resold well enough after the release and the retail price is knocked down a few bucks too by that point.
It's important to understand what is being paid for on the customer end with a new copy as well and a lot of people don't. I remember a particular big budget studio releasing a DLC for 10 bucks and then 8 months later making it free. A lot of people were like "hey! We paid for our copies" and the studio responded by saying "and you got to play it for 8 months before anyone got it for free".
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Ottawa 'accidentally misplaces' $3,100,000,000 in anti-terrorist funds.
"It was there a minute ago," says Auditor-General Michael Ferguson.

[Treasury Board President Tony Clement] pointed out that some of the spending – from 2001 to 2006 - went back to the "previous Liberal government."
So whose fault is it REALLY? :roll:

... the people who were supposed to track the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEY WERE GIVEN. Why bring partisan politics into it?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:I remember a particular big budget studio releasing a DLC for 10 bucks and then 8 months later making it free. A lot of people were like "hey! We paid for our copies" and the studio responded by saying "and you got to play it for 8 months before anyone got it for free".
How many of the purchasers knew they were spending 10 bucks for early access, though? And how many would have decided to just wait if they knew they could get it free in 8 months (or less, because not ALL the buyers bought the DLC immediately upon release)?

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Why bring partisan politics into it?
I believe my added emphasis answers this.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:06 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:I remember a particular big budget studio releasing a DLC for 10 bucks and then 8 months later making it free. A lot of people were like "hey! We paid for our copies" and the studio responded by saying "and you got to play it for 8 months before anyone got it for free".
How many of the purchasers knew they were spending 10 bucks for early access, though? And how many would have decided to just wait if they knew they could get it free in 8 months (or less, because not ALL the buyers bought the DLC immediately upon release)?


How many people bought Portal 2 knowing that it would be $5 last weekend?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adam H » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:14 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Adam H wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Ottawa 'accidentally misplaces' $3,100,000,000 in anti-terrorist funds.
"It was there a minute ago," says Auditor-General Michael Ferguson.

[Treasury Board President Tony Clement] pointed out that some of the spending – from 2001 to 2006 - went back to the "previous Liberal government."
So whose fault is it REALLY? :roll:

... the people who were supposed to track the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEY WERE GIVEN. Why bring partisan politics into it?

In case it wasn't clear, I was being sarcastic and my eyeroll was for Tony Clement.
-Adam

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:18 pm UTC

Ah, ok, my bad. I've been a little twitchy with "OH MY GOD THE LIBRRRLS!" crap these days.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

Remember, the Conservatives are still trying to clean up the mess of the country that Pierre Trudeau made of it. We'll need at least another decade of Conservative majorities before anything becomes their fault :wink:

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Xeio » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:30 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How many people bought Portal 2 knowing that it would be $5 last weekend?
Or any of the numerous games that were originally subscription based that went F2P over the years.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:35 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Remember, the Conservatives are still trying to clean up the mess of the country that Pierre Trudeau made of it. We'll need at least another decade of Conservative majorities before anything becomes their fault :wink:


It's strange how things work, because in the US the economy is now all Obama's fault and he's only on his fifth year as President. Granted he does refuse to work with Conservatives (who are completely open to things like stimulus spending, if only Obama would talk to them).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:45 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:How many people bought Portal 2 knowing that it would be $5 last weekend?
Or any of the numerous games that were originally subscription based that went F2P over the years.

Portal 2 being $5: Game prices decrease over time. Sometimes products go on sale. Old stuff gets cheaper and sometimes there are deals on things. It is completely reasonable to respond to someone complaining about having paid $50 then for a now $5 game with "Well you knew the price was going to drop eventually, so why didn't you wait?"

Subscription to F2P: F2P rarely means "completely and totally free forever". Games that make this switch are very likely to employ microtransactions, which means you can budget your subscription payments for content purchases instead, and pay the same price per month except now get special items on top of access to the core game.

BOTH of these situations are VASTLY different from selling content for ten months and then deciding the content is free. The latter situation is very difficult for me to see as anything other than milking an existing fanbase before folding new work into the product to make it more appealing to newer customers.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:49 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Remember, the Conservatives are still trying to clean up the mess of the country that Pierre Trudeau made of it. We'll need at least another decade of Conservative majorities before anything becomes their fault :wink:

It's strange how things work, because in the US the economy is now all Obama's fault and he's only on his fifth year as President. Granted he does refuse to work with Conservatives (who are completely open to things like stimulus spending, if only Obama would talk to them).

Everything is everyone else's fault, all the time, and to think differently is to be quite obviously wrong forever.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Qaanol » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Funny story, I couldn't find MoO2 anywhere.

FYI you can get MoO2 by taking MoO3 and reducing it with NH3 below 470°C.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Magnanimous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:04 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Portal 2 being $5: Game prices decrease over time. Sometimes products go on sale. Old stuff gets cheaper and sometimes there are deals on things. It is completely reasonable to respond to someone complaining about having paid $50 then for a now $5 game with "Well you knew the price was going to drop eventually, so why didn't you wait?"

[...]

BOTH of these situations are VASTLY different from selling content for ten months and then deciding the content is free. The latter situation is very difficult for me to see as anything other than milking an existing fanbase before folding new work into the product to make it more appealing to newer customers.

Would they still be different if the price is moved to one cent instead of zero cents? I see it as pretty much the same thing: people can pay full price for the advantage of playing X right now, or reduced cost if they don't mind waiting a year.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Xeio » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:05 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Portal 2 being $5: Game prices decrease over time. Sometimes products go on sale. Old stuff gets cheaper and sometimes there are deals on things. It is completely reasonable to respond to someone complaining about having paid $50 then for a now $5 game with "Well you knew the price was going to drop eventually, so why didn't you wait?"

Subscription to F2P: F2P rarely means "completely and totally free forever". Games that make this switch are very likely to employ microtransactions, which means you can budget your subscription payments for content purchases instead, and pay the same price per month except now get special items on top of access to the core game.

BOTH of these situations are VASTLY different from selling content for ten months and then deciding the content is free. The latter situation is very difficult for me to see as anything other than milking an existing fanbase before folding new work into the product to make it more appealing to newer customers.
TF2 is a better matching example then? Used to be paid, became totally free to widen user base (and, of course, lure more users into spending on microtransactions)?

I don't understand what you're saying though. It's not like F2P implies you must pay for the microtransactions. If a subscription based game goes F2P I'm probably not going to keep putting in $15 a month on microtransactions just because. Weren't you just effectively paying for time-based exclusivity then? How is the argument different?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:39 pm UTC

The problem with microtransactions is this: If my only source of money is in micro transactions, I have a incentive to make the game purposely frustrating if you play legit. Take an aquarium game, you feed the fish, clean up, and collect rewards. If you mess up, you lose the fish. If I'm honest, paying and nonpaying players have fun. But what if I make nonpaying players have to feed their fish every 2 minutes, and you have to buy superfood that lets them last longer without feeding? Now what if I make it so the fish drop treasure, but only 1 gold at a time. The paying player can buy super fish that drop 1000 gold at a time. Then I make the store cost 10000 gold to buy basic items. And so on. Starting to see the problem? Also, this isn't a made up story, this is a real game.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Xeio » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:55 pm UTC

Sure, not all F2P are like that (though I'm sure there is no short supply of the crappy kind, especially on mobile platforms).

I have no problem with F2P games like TF2, Planetside 2, Path of Exile, and similar, you can pay for cosmetic, or to unlock certain things faster, but you can get any gameplay/balance-affecting item with just time. I generally just don't play the other kind of games. :mrgreen:

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mike-l » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:04 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
mike-l wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:Buying it second hand is still supporting someone who supported the developer by buying a real copy.

Borrowing from a friend is temporary. One is generally not getting the full experience of the game in the limited time frame of a day or 2 but that's entirely dependent on the specific game being lent as well.


Both these actions, from an economic point of view, hurt* the developer equally as pirating the game, or, also as equally, as just never buying the game.

*This is not to imply any morality or legality

Yeah, libraries are totally anti-authors. :roll:

Any argument that can be made about piracy can be made about libraries and vice versa.

And for the people saying that buying a used game subsidizes future purchases, the added ability of the used game seller to buy a new game is exactly the negative of the buyer buying the same new game.

Again, this is in no way saying that buying used games is bad, just from an economic point of view there is very little difference between piracy, aftermarket transactions, and lending.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Роберт » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:21 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Any argument that can be made about piracy can be made about libraries and vice versa.

Nope. One is violating copyrights, and the other is not. The significance of that fact is left as an exercise for the reader.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Magnanimous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:53 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The problem with microtransactions is this: If my only source of money is in micro transactions, I have a incentive to make the game purposely frustrating if you play legit.
More broadly, the incentive is to sell more microtransactions... and if they affect gameplay/difficulty, you are correct. But the microtransactions in the examples Xeio gave don't really affect gameplay at all, they just make the game more entertaining and engaging. Make your character or items look different, add animations, make the visual/audio effects fancier, have a pet follow you around, etc. If you start with a pretty good game that's a little bland aesthetically, people will pay to make it better if it's easy and cheap. (In theory. We'll find out how well it works in a few years.)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mike-l » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:04 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
mike-l wrote:Any argument that can be made about piracy can be made about libraries and vice versa.

Nope. One is violating copyrights, and the other is not. The significance of that fact is left as an exercise for the reader.

You're right, I'll rephrase "Any economic argument that can be made about one can be made about the other", as indicated by both of my posts that you quoted.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby folkhero » Wed May 01, 2013 12:09 am UTC

mike-l wrote:And for the people saying that buying a used game subsidizes future purchases, the added ability of the used game seller to buy a new game is exactly the negative of the buyer buying the same new game.

Again, this is in no way saying that buying used games is bad, just from an economic point of view there is very little difference between piracy, aftermarket transactions, and lending.

There is plenty economic difference. If a customer has the ability to lend or resell an item, then that item is worth more to him/her. That means customers are willing to pay more for games that they can lend and resell, which means that for any given price point there will be more customers buying the product. Many of them probably won't actually resell the games; the ability to resell it acts as a mini insurance policy if they don't like the game at all. So while the buyers in the secondary market aren't giving money to game creators, their existence and willingness to pay (in aggregate) generates extra value for them in a way that pirates do not. (With the exception of pirates who really are using the pirated game as a demo and really are willing to buy games they've already gotten for free. And even then the two are very different economically)

And the person comparing games to cars: Which do you think is going to keep more of it's value, a typical 12-year-old car or a typical 12-year-old video game?
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