In other news... (humorous news items)

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induction
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:39 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:47 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:There's a long tradition of this


Well, if its part of their traditions to usurp the civilian control of the military, I guess they totally get a pass on this.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:23 am UTC

induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby yurell » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:33 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.


Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:07 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.


Let me elaborate. Geologically speaking, you are making me cry.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby firechicago » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:24 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Well, if its part of their traditions to usurp the civilian control of the military, I guess they totally get a pass on this.

Hey, I'm definitely not defending it. Throughout the Cold War, SAC had a blinkered arrogance that was truly terrifying in it's implications. It's not a coincidence that this is the same era that had smart political scientists like Sam Huntington really worried about the military-civilian balance of power.

The issue is that no matter what oversight you have, if the military bureaucracy is actively opposed to you, you're not going to be able to make much headway in changing the way things are done, no matter how much power you have in theory.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:06 am UTC

yurell wrote:Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.


Is a piece of a meteor is a space rock, but a piece of a planet not a space rock? After all, the only difference is size.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:09 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
yurell wrote:Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.


Is a piece of a meteor is a space rock, but a piece of a planet not a space rock? After all, the only difference is size.


Likewise, I was born in space.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:13 am UTC

induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:
yurell wrote:Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.


Is a piece of a meteor is a space rock, but a piece of a planet not a space rock? After all, the only difference is size.


Likewise, I was born in space.


Can you please define your cutoff for something originating in space as opposed to not originating in space?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:13 am UTC

I traveled more than several decades in time to say that I approve of this conversation.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adacore » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:31 am UTC

I do kinda agree that if you're going to say that all rocks originate in space, you could equally say that all rocks are always in space, even after they've hit you in the head. I'm still not sure I'd want to be hit by one.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:59 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:
yurell wrote:Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.


Is a piece of a meteor is a space rock, but a piece of a planet not a space rock? After all, the only difference is size.


Likewise, I was born in space.


Can you please define your cutoff for something originating in space as opposed to not originating in space?


'Space' has many reasonable definitions, but in the context of the origins of an object, something along the lines of 'everything in the universe outside of the volume bounded by the edge of Earth's atmosphere' works ok. Alternately you could exclude other planets if you want to, depending on your mood.

Similarly, rocks are more than just collections of atoms. The atoms in rocks are highly structured as a result of chemical processes and this structure is just as important in differentiating rocks as the elemental composition is. In other words, the exact same atoms can form any number of different rocks, depending on the formation process. If these chemical processes occurred inside the volume bounded by the edge of Earth's atmosphere, then they did not originate in space (even if the atoms they are made out of originated in the big bang (hydrogen) or the interior of a star (almost everything else)). Since (100-epsilon)% of all of the rocks currently within the volume bounded by the edge of Earth's atmosphere were formed by chemical processes that occurred inside the volume bounded by the Earth's surface, we don't even have to worry about the nebulosity of the phrase 'the edge of Earth's atmosphere'.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:06 am UTC

The atomic makeup of the asteroids in space are not what they were 4 billion years ago, so does that mean asteroids aren't space rocks?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:54 am UTC

I don't follow. The processes that formed the asteroids occurred in space. Any subsequent alteration also occurred in space. They are space rocks.

I admit that the simple categorical system I described allows for fringe cases. A meteorite falling through the atmosphere is altered (though mostly at the surface) by its passage through the atmosphere. If it stays on Earth for a long time, it could conceivably be subject to further chemical alteration. Most would still call it a space rock, but it doesn't fit the category as neatly as an asteroid.

Nonetheless, the existence of fringe cases does not justify the statement, 'all rocks originated in space'.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:02 am UTC

Like the asteroid, didn't the subsequent alterations to Earth occur while Earth was in space?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:15 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Like the asteroid, didn't the subsequent alterations to Earth occur while Earth was in space?


Earth is in space, the rocks in and on Earth are not.

space = everything in the universe outside of the volume bounded by the edge of Earth's atmosphere

You seem to be arguing for a different definition:
space = the universe

Under that highly non-standard definition, I agree that all rocks originated in space.

Same for plants and people. And hippos.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Suzaku » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:16 am UTC

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby yurell » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:17 am UTC

@Thresh Meanwhile you're demonstrating that you can survive in space without a space suit or artificial life support, Yuri Gagarin wasn't the first man in space etc., rendering the term 'in space' pretty meaningless from a conversation standpoint. And then we just get into a linguistics argument about what it means to be 'in space', and what the difference is between being 'in' something versus being surrounded 'by' something, and whether an 'absence of something' that we have nouned can meaningfully be used in such a way and so on.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:19 am UTC

induction wrote:Earth is in space, the rocks in and on Earth are not.


Then the rocks on asteroids are not in space?

induction wrote:space = everything in the universe outside of the volume bounded by the edge of Earth's atmosphere


That's an extremely terracentric definition.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:27 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Then the rocks on asteroids are not in space?


Only if the asteroids are inside the volume bounded by Earth's atmosphere.


That's an extremely terracentric definition.


Earthophobe.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:50 am UTC

Earth is in Space. Therefore everything on Earth is in Space.




All atoms heavier than helium were at some point, formed by supernovae. The matter ejected ended up in the vast emptiness of space until it became part of the relatively small clump of matter that is dominated by the star Sol. Various pieces clung via static electricity until large enough to form a body with enough gravitational pull to attract enough dust particles and other clumps to form a small planet. Then another planet collided with this first planet, the result of which ejected enough matter to form a moon around a new, larger planet. (Theoretically 3 moons, but the other two collided again with the larger moon or with the planet or simply escaped). Several billion years later, we were born. All of this matter was once part of something else out in Space.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:57 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby elasto » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:53 am UTC

Dunno if this better belongs in the gun control thread. Amazing how different Northern European societies are though; Sometimes it feels like they're not on the same planet (in a good way):

Icelandic police have shot dead a man who was firing a shotgun in his apartment in the early hours of Monday. It is the first time someone has been killed in an armed police operation in Iceland, officials say.

Tear gas canisters were fired through the windows in an attempt to subdue the 59-year-old, who lived in the east of the capital, Reykjavik. When this failed he was shot after firing at police entering the building. Between 15 and 20 officers took part. Back-up was provided by special forces.

The tear gas was used when the man, who has not been named, failed to respond to police attempts to contact him and continued shooting.

[...]

"Police regret this incident and would like to extend their condolences to the family of the man," Icelandic police chief Haraldur Johannessen told reporters. The incident was "without precedent" in Iceland, he said.

[...]

Counselling is being provided to the special forces team.


link

Also came across this set of stats:

Homicide count in 2009

Brazil 43,909
US 15,241
UK 724
Denmark 47
Iceland 1

Last edited by elasto on Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:03 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:00 am UTC

Iceland has about 300,000 people, almost negligible poverty, a high standard of education, and a very low Gini coefficient. It should be expected that crime is rare.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby elasto » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:07 am UTC

There's a difference between 'it should be expected that crime is rare' and 'this is the first time the police have ever killed anyone in an armed operation' and 'only one person was murdered in Iceland in 2009' don't ya think?

Or are you so worldly-wise that there is nothing that surprises you?

For me, I'm not ashamed to be one of the ten thousand newbies on this topic today.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:12 am UTC

Yes. To coment on the story from Iceland;
Not only do those people seem to have a stable affluent homogenous culture, they also seem to be sensitive to human needs.
The Police are getting special debriefings and condolences have been offered to the family of the victim.
This was their first Police shooting. I hope it is their last, in a long long time.


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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Soralin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:35 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Earth is in Space. Therefore everything on Earth is in Space.

Fallacy of division

CorruptUser wrote:All atoms heavier than helium were at some point, formed by supernovae. The matter ejected ended up in the vast emptiness of space until it became part of the relatively small clump of matter that is dominated by the star Sol. Various pieces clung via static electricity until large enough to form a body with enough gravitational pull to attract enough dust particles and other clumps to form a small planet. Then another planet collided with this first planet, the result of which ejected enough matter to form a moon around a new, larger planet. (Theoretically 3 moons, but the other two collided again with the larger moon or with the planet or simply escaped). Several billion years later, we were born. All of this matter was once part of something else out in Space.

Fallacy of composition

Something being true for every component of an object, does not mean it is true for the object itself, and vice-versa. All that infalling matter crashing together melted, from kinetic energy, and radioactivity, and out of it cooled rocks. And much of the planet, below the crust, is still molten, and new rocks are formed all the time. I mean, Radiometric dating is used to determine the age of rocks, and obviously not all rocks are the same age. The age of the atoms in the rock is not the age of the rock, anymore than the age of the atoms in you is the age of you.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:42 am UTC

1. Iceland is awesome. And it astounds me that police officers were shot in the face and yet they're still very sorry for shooting the guy.

Obviously we can't exactly model Iceland, but we should look at them more.


Anyways:

2. This "Space" debate is starting to transcend any actual discussion of the news... well, it stopped doing so a while ago.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby AliceKing » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:00 am UTC

"Paul Walker" died this Satruday. Will the Fast and Furious be the same without him, who should replace him in the movie.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Chen » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:57 pm UTC

AliceKing wrote:"Paul Walker" died this Satruday. Will the Fast and Furious be the same without him, who should replace him in the movie.


He died in a fiery car crash that was possibly due to a street race. The universe apparently has a somewhat sick sense of irony.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:31 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:1. Iceland is awesome. And it astounds me that police officers were shot in the face and yet they're still very sorry for shooting the guy.

Obviously we can't exactly model Iceland, but we should look at them more.


Anyways:

2. This "Space" debate is starting to transcend any actual discussion of the news... well, it stopped doing so a while ago.

The Space debate looks like things that The Young have been discussing sense, forever.

What is our place in the Universe?
Where did we come from?

Are we a part of everything?
No. Idiiot! Everything is a part of us.
Get dressed! There must be something we are supposed to be doing.


Don't call me Idiot!

Now that is inside my head, too. Thanks a lot, Idiot.
Don't call me Idiot!!

I have to. It's your Indian Name.
Hey! I have on a Uniform! Back off.


See? People are smart. What other animal will look at the stars and argue about it?

Spoiler:
I once knew two men that had the same name.
I have known more than two. Some names are common.
David, Jose, Peter, Paul and Henry.

I knew two men that lived in the same flat.
They were both Maggot in a Man's Suit.

One of them acted very badly when he had his name translated.
The other one was speachless. To me. He was like a girlie, girlie Magot in a Man's Suit.

Not all Indian Names are flattering. Almost all have a story.
I don't know one fattering Indian Name.

There is Vomits A Lot; Pees on Leash; Pick E. Easter.
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She Who is most likely to Marry A Stranger. He Who is most likely to die in a Horrible Lab Accident.

Be grateful they are discussing the Cosmos. If you are thinking about them too much; You can rename them.
If you can code, you can go into the program and rename them.

Or; You can let them talk it out. If they hurt one another, someone will complain. right?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.


Let me elaborate. Geologically speaking, you are making me cry.


Astrophysically speaking, you are making me cry.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:09 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.

No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.

Let me elaborate. Geologically speaking, you are making me cry.

Astrophysically speaking, you are making me cry.

Blatantly ignoring the role of God in rock creation is making baby Jebus cry.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
AliceKing wrote:"Paul Walker" died this Satruday. Will the Fast and Furious be the same without him, who should replace him in the movie.


He died in a fiery car crash that was possibly due to a street race. The universe apparently has a somewhat sick sense of irony.


That's kind of the opposite of irony.

Irony is a brothel in Virgin, Utah, not Intercourse, Pennsylvania.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:20 pm UTC

You people are so funny.
Is there a Brothel in Virgin, Utah?
If not a Coffee House named Brothel might be a good idea.

The gentiles for miles around might show up for coffee and a giggle.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby MartianInvader » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:42 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure that, by induction's definition, the earth is not in space.
Let's have a fervent argument, mostly over semantics, where we all claim the burden of proof is on the other side!

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Choboman » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
Thesh wrote:
induction wrote:
Thesh wrote:Technically all rocks originated in space.


No.

While your argument is strong, I must still disagree.


Well, it depends if the property of 'rock' applies to its raw constituents — if it can, then yes, all rocks originate in space. If not, then rocks are routinely made and destroyed on terrestrial bodies — if you wish to point out that these are in space, then the statement is true but utterly meaningless.

Can also be dependant on the interpretation of 'originated'. In some senses, we could say that all rocks (and hippos, and space itself) originated with the big bang, no?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:50 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:I'm pretty sure that, by induction's definition, the earth is not in space.


Earth is in space. Earth's contents are not. Earth is the definitional opposite of space.


Choboman wrote:Can also be dependant on the interpretation of 'originated'. In some senses, we could say that all rocks (and hippos, and space itself) originated with the big bang, no?


Only if you equate rocks and hippos with fundamental particles. Geology is actually a thing. Rocks are not just collections of quarks.


SlyReaper wrote:Astrophysically speaking, you are making me cry.


I'm totally down with astrophysics. Solidarity brother.

I accept that the division of the universe into Earth and space is arbitrary. This isn't science, it's just categorization. It's done by Earthlings, so it's a fairly natural division for us to make. Plus it keeps the astronomers from getting all up in our business.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:04 pm UTC

I was more talking about the materials that make up rocks coming from space, even if you hold by the arbitrary earth/space divide. The way I see it, cosmic dust particles are just very very small rocks. Earth rocks are space dust clumped together. For that matter, so are people. The fact that it may have spent a few billion years as magma or whatever, so what? The atoms came from the stars.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby induction » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:22 pm UTC

So you wouldn't mind if someone served you dog poop and called it pudding? It's all just space dust.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

Delicious space dust.
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