In other news... (humorous news items)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby jareds » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:02 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
Diadem wrote:So I take a laptop, throw out everything inside the case, put in a mobile phone connected to the laptop screen, running windows 7, and fill the rest of the laptop with explosives. Perhaps too high-tech for your average terrorist, but it seems to me it's entirely feasible.

I do think you are right. They merely seem to want to check that the laptop / phone is real. I just wonder if this is in any way an adequate test.

Probably feasible, but you'd have to test the design quite a bit to make it look at least reasonably laptop-like on an x-ray scan.

In the late 1990s, you could generally skip sending an electronic device through the X-ray by submitting it to manual inspection, presumably because convincing people that X-rays wouldn't damage it wasn't considered worth the bother. And manual inspection would consist of the same practice we're discussing of turning on a device to make sure it's real.

Once in that time frame, when I was traveling with an associate who had a laptop, he skipped sending it through the X-ray, and security asked him to turn it on. He did so, and then turned it off during the Windows 95 splash screen. As we walked out of earshot, I quietly but casually commented that that was a really poor test because you could trivially replace the CD-ROM with explosives and/or get a laptop with two battery bays and replace one with explosives, and slightly less trivially flash the BIOS with a simple mock-up of the Windows 95 splash screen and replace the hard drive with explosives. He gave me a look, and said that I'd probably do a good job of blowing up an airplane.

This conversation would be a horrible idea nowadays, of course. Of course, even then I did not argue with security in this manner.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Magnanimous » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:37 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:'salready an issue. Large chunks of traffic signals lack power.

Traffic lights are just someone's opinion, man.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:58 am UTC

Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mambrino » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:36 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:I knew enough about smallpox to know it wasn't an actual thing anymore, so I asked the med tech why I was being vaccinated. What she told me, and I repeat this story for entertainment purposes only; I have no reason to believe it's true, is that as smallpox was being eliminated around the world the CDC began an ethical discussion of whether it was okay to deliberately cause the complete extinction of a species. To resolve this a few vials of smallpox were kept at the CDC, and the Soviets did the same at their commie equivalent of the CDC.

There are certainly vials of Smallpox around. The reason for keeping them wasn't an ethical 'it would be wrong to completely destroy a virus' thing, though. They were kept for research, in many locations around the world. In the 1970s someone was infected by the virus in a British lab, died, and the lead scientist committed suicide. After that all known stocks were moved to two WHO labs, the US CDC, and the Russian State Research Center. The WHO concluded that stocks were unnecessary for research, and posed too big a risk, so recommended they all be destroyed. The US and Russia refused, on the basis that they could be useful for developing new vaccines or fighting future diseases (the WHO disagrees), so those two labs still have stocks.


I thought the real reason was that neither size wanted / wants to grant the other a monopoly to the possibility of weaponizing smallpox. If forgotten smallpox vials turn up now and then, how difficult it would be to claim "yes, we concede all our stockpiles to international observers or destroy them in front of them" and yet hide a couple of vials?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:39 pm UTC

Photobomb!

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Krealr » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:47 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Photobomb!

Spoiler:
Image


It would have been even better if the bird blocked enough of the picture to make it impossible to determine who won. :mrgreen:

Also did they give the seagull second place?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby freezeblade » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

that was at Golden Gate Fields right?

I'm sure that sort of thing happens all the time, bloody seagulls are everywhere in the bay.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:52 pm UTC

Mambrino wrote:
Adacore wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:I knew enough about smallpox to know it wasn't an actual thing anymore, so I asked the med tech why I was being vaccinated. What she told me, and I repeat this story for entertainment purposes only; I have no reason to believe it's true, is that as smallpox was being eliminated around the world the CDC began an ethical discussion of whether it was okay to deliberately cause the complete extinction of a species. To resolve this a few vials of smallpox were kept at the CDC, and the Soviets did the same at their commie equivalent of the CDC.

There are certainly vials of Smallpox around. The reason for keeping them wasn't an ethical 'it would be wrong to completely destroy a virus' thing, though. They were kept for research, in many locations around the world. In the 1970s someone was infected by the virus in a British lab, died, and the lead scientist committed suicide. After that all known stocks were moved to two WHO labs, the US CDC, and the Russian State Research Center. The WHO concluded that stocks were unnecessary for research, and posed too big a risk, so recommended they all be destroyed. The US and Russia refused, on the basis that they could be useful for developing new vaccines or fighting future diseases (the WHO disagrees), so those two labs still have stocks.


I thought the real reason was that neither size wanted / wants to grant the other a monopoly to the possibility of weaponizing smallpox. If forgotten smallpox vials turn up now and then, how difficult it would be to claim "yes, we concede all our stockpiles to international observers or destroy them in front of them" and yet hide a couple of vials?


That is likely a more practical reason...though I am indeed aware that the other argument comes up. For instance, I've heard folks within the USFS argue for moderation in anti-mosquito efforts based on similar grounds.

Leaving aside the severe improbability of us actually wiping out mosquitos, or subspecies thereof, I'm perfectly ok with murderizing a disease like smallpox. Or mosquitos, if I was relatively confident that the ecological changes would be a net gain. Practicality is an obstacle, but morality...no issues there.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:58 pm UTC

There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby DSenette » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:59 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Mambrino wrote:
Adacore wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:I knew enough about smallpox to know it wasn't an actual thing anymore, so I asked the med tech why I was being vaccinated. What she told me, and I repeat this story for entertainment purposes only; I have no reason to believe it's true, is that as smallpox was being eliminated around the world the CDC began an ethical discussion of whether it was okay to deliberately cause the complete extinction of a species. To resolve this a few vials of smallpox were kept at the CDC, and the Soviets did the same at their commie equivalent of the CDC.

There are certainly vials of Smallpox around. The reason for keeping them wasn't an ethical 'it would be wrong to completely destroy a virus' thing, though. They were kept for research, in many locations around the world. In the 1970s someone was infected by the virus in a British lab, died, and the lead scientist committed suicide. After that all known stocks were moved to two WHO labs, the US CDC, and the Russian State Research Center. The WHO concluded that stocks were unnecessary for research, and posed too big a risk, so recommended they all be destroyed. The US and Russia refused, on the basis that they could be useful for developing new vaccines or fighting future diseases (the WHO disagrees), so those two labs still have stocks.


I thought the real reason was that neither size wanted / wants to grant the other a monopoly to the possibility of weaponizing smallpox. If forgotten smallpox vials turn up now and then, how difficult it would be to claim "yes, we concede all our stockpiles to international observers or destroy them in front of them" and yet hide a couple of vials?


That is likely a more practical reason...though I am indeed aware that the other argument comes up. For instance, I've heard folks within the USFS argue for moderation in anti-mosquito efforts based on similar grounds.

Leaving aside the severe improbability of us actually wiping out mosquitos, or subspecies thereof, I'm perfectly ok with murderizing a disease like smallpox. Or mosquitos, if I was relatively confident that the ecological changes would be a net gain. Practicality is an obstacle, but morality...no issues there.


it's probably more efficient to modify the skeeters so that they can't carry disease... there was a thing on NPR last year where a group was able to modify something about the gut of a mosquito that made it impossible to carry malaria, but didn't hurt the mosquito at all, so you wouldn't have any ecosystem problems

...I can't find the article now because of a flood of other GM mosquito articles that are talking about actually killing the mosquitoes http://time.com/2852568/genetically-mod ... t-malaria/
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Coyne » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:06 am UTC

Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.
In all fairness...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:39 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.


Wouldn't you need such stocks to be able to create vaccines as well? So it's not just MAD, but also actual defence.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:48 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.


Despite all the fears regarding MAD...the world did not, in fact, end in a nuclear apocalpyse. So, maybe it's not THAT crazy.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:53 pm UTC

Well, it hasn't yet. Which is why we're currently still able to say that.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:14 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Coyne wrote:
Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.


Despite all the fears regarding MAD...the world did not, in fact, end in a nuclear apocalpyse. So, maybe it's not THAT crazy.

All it takes is for one madman to reach a position where he can push the button. MAD only works when both sides are sane.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Diadem » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:28 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Coyne wrote:
Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.


Despite all the fears regarding MAD...the world did not, in fact, end in a nuclear apocalpyse. So, maybe it's not THAT crazy.

Do you have any idea how close we came to a nuclear apocalypse though? Pretty damn close, is how close. In fact pretty damn fucking close.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:43 pm UTC

More than once, in fact.

That said, MAD also kept the cold war cold. If we didn't have nukes, there's a very real chance that any of the many conflicts during the cold war could have turned into a full scale shooting war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact and millions would have died.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:55 pm UTC

MAD was supposed to keep WW1 cold as well.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:00 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:More than once, in fact.

That said, MAD also kept the cold war cold. If we didn't have nukes, there's a very real chance that any of the many conflicts during the cold war could have turned into a full scale shooting war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact and millions would have died.


Instead we only risked billions of people dying.

I wonder if nuclear missile interception will ever be perfected, or if it can be. If we do get to that point though, we might start getting a lot more conventional wars between superpowers that previously avoided such conflict due to not wanting the world to explode. Sigh.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:09 pm UTC

If the European empires and the USA hadn't wanted to destroy the Soviet Union, there wouldn't have been a cold war either.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:15 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:More than once, in fact.

That said, MAD also kept the cold war cold. If we didn't have nukes, there's a very real chance that any of the many conflicts during the cold war could have turned into a full scale shooting war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact and millions would have died.


Instead we only risked billions of people dying.

I wonder if nuclear missile interception will ever be perfected, or if it can be. If we do get to that point though, we might start getting a lot more conventional wars between superpowers that previously avoided such conflict due to not wanting the world to explode. Sigh.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Diadem » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:35 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:More than once, in fact.

That said, MAD also kept the cold war cold.

Did you read the links I posted?

The cold war only stayed cold by the barest of samples. So to test the hypothesis "MAD kept the world safe" we have a sample size of 1, and in that sample things came about as close to going wrong as possible. That is not convincing in the slightest.


As an aside: I never understand why Kennedy is liked so much in the USA. First he invades Cuba, and completely botches it, driving Castro into the hands of the Soviet Union. Then he escalates the Vietnam war. And as if that isn't enough, he nearly destroys the fucking planet. How is it possible that he is not regarded as the worst president ever not just of America but in the history of the entire world? I mean, yes, the civil rights bills and the space program are awesome, but that doesn't even come close to making up for the Vietnam war, let alone the Cuba crisis.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:25 pm UTC

Technically, we have a sample size of 2. India/Pakistan are both nuclear-armed states who have engaged in a number of conventional wars against each other, and are currently maintaining a peace between them via nuclear deterrent.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:28 pm UTC

If that counts, then wouldn't India/China count?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:29 pm UTC

Or China/US, given that China's nukes were ostensibly built to 'deter US aggression'?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:31 pm UTC

I wonder if the Korea situation could be considered to count. The DPRK doesn't have nukes, but they have enough conventional weapons to level Seoul before we could stop them so it works much the same way in practice.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby nitePhyyre » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:More than once, in fact.

That said, MAD also kept the cold war cold.

Did you read the links I posted?

The cold war only stayed cold by the barest of samples. So to test the hypothesis "MAD kept the world safe" we have a sample size of 1, and in that sample things came about as close to going wrong as possible. That is not convincing in the slightest.


As an aside: I never understand why Kennedy is liked so much in the USA. First he invades Cuba, and completely botches it, driving Castro into the hands of the Soviet Union. Then he escalates the Vietnam war. And as if that isn't enough, he nearly destroys the fucking planet. How is it possible that he is not regarded as the worst president ever not just of America but in the history of the entire world? I mean, yes, the civil rights bills and the space program are awesome, but that doesn't even come close to making up for the Vietnam war, let alone the Cuba crisis.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:35 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:If that counts, then wouldn't India/China count?


There isn't really much indication, AFAIK, that India/China were ever really intending on engaging in a conventional war. Sort of like saying you had MAD between France and the US. Both states do have nukes, but it doesn't really make sense to call it a nuclear deterrent to each other because neither state really had any interest in attacking the other to begin with.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:42 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Don't speak ill of the dead?

Why? Not like they can take offence.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:58 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:There isn't really much indication, AFAIK, that India/China were ever really intending on engaging in a conventional war.
Are you consciously discounting the 1959 war? I mean - that's justifiable, it's not a major conflict. Just wondering.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:00 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:There isn't really much indication, AFAIK, that India/China were ever really intending on engaging in a conventional war.


Are you consciously discounting the 1959 war? I mean - that's justifiable, it's not a major conflict. Just wondering.


No, I just forgot about it.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:03 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I wonder if the Korea situation could be considered to count. The DPRK doesn't have nukes, but they have enough conventional weapons to level Seoul before we could stop them so it works much the same way in practice.


Umm... Yes they do. But their main deterrent is all the chemical weapons.

Or arguably, their horribly run country is the real deterrent. One of the privilege blindnesses is the misplaced idea that every group of people is equal. This is not the case. Genetically there is mostly negligible difference. But a people's capability depends on a whole lot more than genetics alone. The people of North Korea are retarded. Literally retarded, due to malnutrition. Their average height has fallen 3 inches due to government incompetence. Insufficient and improper nutrition does a number on emotional and mental capabilities as well, the result being a starving mass of incapable workers. Things like iodine and vitamin A deficiency cause further health problems among the population, and then there are the diseases and parasites which further cripple the population. South Korea would suffer heavily in the short and mid term with reunification, even if it's better long term.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

It's a fair point that nuclear weapons are only one type of WMD.

A South-North reunification would be unlike anything we've seen before in recent history. Maybe South Africa's end of apartheid? (For very different reasons, but still a downtrodden population reuniting with a rich, educated one).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:28 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:It's a fair point that nuclear weapons are only one type of WMD.

A South-North reunification would be unlike anything we've seen before in recent history. Maybe South Africa's end of apartheid? (For very different reasons, but still a downtrodden population reuniting with a rich, educated one).


West/East Germany, maybe.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:29 pm UTC

The reunification of Germany is probably the closest. A number of people didn't want it (and many were surprised at how fast it happened) for fear of economic instabilities (and ze Germans!)
But I suspect East Germany was in a far better position than North Korea.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:46 pm UTC

Also West Germany people probably never perceived the East ones as a military threat. South Koreans may feel different about the North.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adacore » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:03 pm UTC

I don't think most South Koreans feel that the North Korean people are a threat. The crazy government, maybe, but the general perception here is that the populace of North Korea is largely ignorant and downtrodden, but would probably welcome reunification if/when it happens. It would be a huge economic drain on the South, but public opinion is still definitely in favour of reunification.

The biggest danger is that if North Korea collapses, China will almost certainly move troops in to claim it at the same time as South Korea and the US move in from the DMZ. They'll meet somewhere in the middle and without a clear plan as to what happens next, small misunderstandings or miscommunications could result in a shooting war. And of course, creating such a plan is impossible, at least publicly. It would be political suicide for any South Korean government to tell their populace that they had any treaty/plan to cede Korean land (in the North or South) to China, and China can't announce such a plan without making North Korea - and significant portions of the political and military elite in China - absolutely furious.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Coyne » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:49 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Coyne wrote:
Angua wrote:There's still a lot of rinderpest hanging around for research purposes apparently as well.

I think it's a case of no-one trusting anyone else to completely get rid of their stocks of smallpox/rinderpest so wanting to have stocks around just in case :P

We must have our MAD, you know.


Wouldn't you need such stocks to be able to create vaccines as well? So it's not just MAD, but also actual defence.

For smallpox, no. The smallpox vaccine is actually made from cowpox.

There is no advantage to retaining the smallpox virus for purposes of vaccine, since the enemy would presumably try to alter a bio-weapon to make the existing vaccines unusable. To then make a vaccine, you would need the enemy's virus; your own stock would help you very little (if at all).

No, I think the real reason is so both sides know the other has it...a variation of MAD.


SlyReaper wrote:All it takes is for one madman to reach a position where he can push the button. MAD only works when both sides are sane.
.
Which is the whole problem with MAD strategy: One zealot or mental incompetent and everyone dies. Which makes the MAD strategy technically insane...and you have people who created that insane strategy claiming they are sane enough to manage it. Should give anyone who actually is sane the willies.

(Just as a thought problem...we have people with the same mindset running NSA and the other TLA's today. Doesn't that comfort you? Do you understand why so many of us have concerns about NSA activities?)
In all fairness...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:13 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:All it takes is for one madman to reach a position where he can push the button. MAD only works when both sides are sane.
.
Which is the whole problem with MAD strategy: One zealot or mental incompetent and everyone dies. Which makes the MAD strategy technically insane...and you have people who created that insane strategy claiming they are sane enough to manage it. Should give anyone who actually is sane the willies.

(Just as a thought problem...we have people with the same mindset running NSA and the other TLA's today. Doesn't that comfort you? Do you understand why so many of us have concerns about NSA activities?)


You have an extremely strange view of sanity.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:41 am UTC

Adacore wrote:I don't think most South Koreans feel that the North Korean people are a threat. The crazy government, maybe, but the general perception here is that the populace of North Korea is largely ignorant and downtrodden, but would probably welcome reunification if/when it happens. It would be a huge economic drain on the South, but public opinion is still definitely in favour of reunification.

The biggest danger is that if North Korea collapses, China will almost certainly move troops in to claim it at the same time as South Korea and the US move in from the DMZ. They'll meet somewhere in the middle and without a clear plan as to what happens next, small misunderstandings or miscommunications could result in a shooting war. And of course, creating such a plan is impossible, at least publicly. It would be political suicide for any South Korean government to tell their populace that they had any treaty/plan to cede Korean land (in the North or South) to China, and China can't announce such a plan without making North Korea - and significant portions of the political and military elite in China - absolutely furious.

I read a book about Wild Places.
It was non-Fiction.

The DMZ is an Island for wildlife.
Not really an Island. A strip.

A sacred Crane that was almost extinct lives there.
The numbers have gone up to the point, flocks fly over.

That is what the book said.
I thought it was funny.

The Humans can not Go There.
It is illegal and dangerous.

There are unexploded ordinance.
The animals are doing well.

If there were a reuniting of the Korean people.
I hope they keep the DMZ as a park.

The information signs can explain both the war and the wildlife.

The Tale of the DMZ may be in this Book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us

There was another example of War forcing humans out and nature taking over in that book.
I don't remember where. It was a developed City, Someplace Nice.

And; Of course, Chernobyl.
Chernobyl and all her plants and animals are being monitored.

oh. Sorry.
That's not funny.
Is it?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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