In other news... (humorous news items)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby krogoth » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:41 am UTC

if people want to continue on about
morality?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=112025
or
further to OT sexism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=111729
Or we can dedicate a new thread to the morality of different types of marriage if people want to go on, though I would say we would need a "defining morality" thread though it probably is just a sub topic on the first thread I've listed.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:28 pm UTC

Remember that trick to escape from jail that was used a lot in old movies. The one where you tie bedsheets together and climb out the window. Well...

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/a ... l-inmates/
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby PeteP » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:04 pm UTC

I'm unsure what exactly they were trying or what is thought they were trying if they can't even fit through the window. Maybe they bound something to it's end and used it to get a message to their man outside and succeeded and letting it hang there is just a diversion from their real plan!^^

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Coyne » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:34 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:I'm unsure what exactly they were trying or what is thought they were trying if they can't even fit through the window. Maybe they bound something to it's end and used it to get a message to their man outside and succeeded and letting it hang there is just a diversion from their real plan!^^


For openings that aren't so extreme, the most common limitation, as I understand it, is width of the shoulders (male) or hips (female). Barring that, the next main restriction is the skull, the largest bone in the body. That seems to apply in this case, given the height of the windows.

(You should read this, for example, as, "A male can get through any opening through which both his skull and his shoulders will fit.")

According to this page the average width of a human skull varies from roughly 17 to 18 centimeters. According to the dimensions given in the news article, the width of each window is 4 7/8 inches, which is 12.4 centimeters.

The prisoners were going nowhere...at least, not if they liked having their brains inside a solid bone. Now, if we assume they were serious about escaping through the window, then they have a serious problem with logical sequence.
In all fairness...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Whizbang » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

I am guessing prank, diversion, or maybe an attempt to smuggle something IN rather than someone out. Let out the rope, someone on the outside ties something to the end, draw it back in, and viola. This assumes that the building is not surrounded by a fence, but if they felt the possibility of escape was legitimate, I assume this side of the building, at least, had no fence.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:06 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
From a jurisprudence point of view:
Imagine a world where a divorce can be granted without any reason being given....


Others have already pointed out that you're mistaken about the rules but to add: traditionally certain things which may not be nice still get included in the realm of "things people are still allowed to do to one another that are nobody elses business" as the alternative is a dystopia far far darker than Brave New World or 1984.

People are allowed to break each others hearts without busybodies from wider society barging in and claiming authority.

jewish_scientist wrote:From a ethical point of view:
Marriage is not some fickle thing that you throwaway once you get bored. It is suppose to be a everlasting connection between two people. By making divorce a difficult process, people will only get married when they 'found the one.' ...


People respond to incentives. Make marriage insanely hard to get out of even if both parties want to and one of the results can be people being less willing to get into it unless you offer massive massive incentives. If enough people do that you eventually kill the institution itself.

In some countries it can be insanely hard to fire someone no matter how dangerously inept, it can take huge investment and months of many lawyers time. As a result institutions become vastly vastly less willing to actually hire people and contract workers with almost no rights or other workarounds become the norm.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:44 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But they didn't have a priest nor witnesses, so they couldn't have been.

God Himself married them, and He definitely trumps priests who act in His name.

Regarding the implied incest of their children: Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, genetically pure. Not in some racist Nazi way, but free from genetic mutation. So there were no recessive genes alleles for dementia or mental retardation or stunted growth; those were due to random mutations, probably a dozen or more generations later.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Whizbang » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:00 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:But they didn't have a priest nor witnesses, so they couldn't have been.

God Himself married them, and He definitely trumps priests who act in His name.

Regarding the implied incest of their children: Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, genetically pure. Not in some racist Nazi way, but free from genetic mutation. So there were no recessive genes alleles for dementia or mental retardation or stunted growth; those were due to random mutations, probably a dozen or more generations later.

[citation needed]

How on Earth did you (or anyone) figure out the genetics of people whom we have no direct physical evidence of any kind?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby DSenette » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

duh, the serpent in the garden was an allegory for free radicals and background radiation.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:24 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:Regarding the implied incest of their children: Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, genetically pure. Not in some racist Nazi way, but free from genetic mutation. So there were no recessive genes alleles for dementia or mental retardation or stunted growth; those were due to random mutations, probably a dozen or more generations later.

What about alleles that offer heterozygote advantage? In order to be genetically perfect Adam and Eve must presumably have possessed those, but at the same time that would have made them carriers of potentially harmful alleles. What about combinations of alleles (at different loci) that are advantageous when expressed apart from each other, but disadvantageous when expressed together? A bit of a catch 22. What I'm saying is that the idea of "genetic perfection" is internally inconsistent.

Unless of course homologous recombination and the random assortment of chromosomes are consequences of the fall and/or the work of the devil, and things would have been rather more planned and controlled within Eden.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:47 pm UTC

<singing>
If you're wondering about genes and aleiles
and other science facts
Just repeat to yourself it's just an allegory
I should really just relax
for Mystery Religion Theater (negative)3000
</singing>
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:21 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:But they didn't have a priest nor witnesses, so they couldn't have been.

God Himself married them, and He definitely trumps priests who act in His name.

Regarding the implied incest of their children: Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, genetically pure. Not in some racist Nazi way, but free from genetic mutation. So there were no recessive genes alleles for dementia or mental retardation or stunted growth; those were due to random mutations, probably a dozen or more generations later.

[citation needed]

How on Earth did you (or anyone) figure out the genetics of people whom we have no direct physical evidence of any kind?

I'm not sure where I first heard or read this explanation, but it makes perfect sense to me (the aforementioned mutations were a direct consequence of sin and the Fall.) It may have been from one of my college professors or textbooks. At any rate, I didn't come up with the idea, and it is a common Christian explanation.
http://www.creationmoments.com/content/ ... ice-incest
http://crossexamined.org/did-they-reall ... m-and-eve/
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby doogly » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:25 pm UTC

it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:30 pm UTC

doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby DSenette » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:36 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

then i suggest you stop using anything that is the result of scientific advances in the understanding of how the universe works.....like...light bulbs....or computers.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:37 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.


Not to really get into it, but what do you do when your axioms are shown self-contradictory? You can PM me if you want (or not, whatever), and so as to avoid general mod-wrath.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:44 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

then i suggest you stop using anything that is the result of scientific advances in the understanding of how the universe works.....like...light bulbs....or computers.


I had that thought too, but I find Mathmannix's interpretation to be more disturbing. If our 'limited minds' and 'available tools' are inadequate for understanding the universe, then it would tend to mean the universe is more like Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu. If our brains can't figure out the universe, than writing the truth of things in a book (another of our 'available tools') won't make it any more comprehensible. Actual exposure to the concepts involved would break our 'limited minds' and result in varying flavors of insanity as the mortal brain tries to reconcile it's limited ability to understand with the neuron-shattering reality behind it all.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:46 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
DSenette wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

then i suggest you stop using anything that is the result of scientific advances in the understanding of how the universe works.....like...light bulbs....or computers.


I had that thought too, but I find Mathmannix's interpretation to be more disturbing. If our 'limited minds' and 'available tools' are inadequate for understanding the universe, then it would tend to mean the universe is more like Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu. If our brains can't figure out the universe, than writing the truth of things in a book (another of our 'available tools') won't make it any more comprehensible. Actual exposure to the concepts involved would break our 'limited minds' and result in varying flavors of insanity as the mortal brain tries to reconcile it's limited ability to understand with the neuron-shattering reality behind it all.


Yeah, that was my take on it as well.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Yablo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:49 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:[citation needed]

How on Earth did you (or anyone) figure out the genetics of people whom we have no direct physical evidence of any kind?


As God created man in His image, it's reasonable for the purpose of the discussion to assume Adam and Eve were the Platonic ideal of man and woman.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:51 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

I don't see that as a necessary axiom for a purely scientific worldview. Sure, we have been able to figure out some stuff about how the universe works (stated more formally, we have a set of models about how the universe works with demonstrated predictive power), and it seems likely that there is substantially more we will be able to explain and predict with better models; but there's nothing in any formulation of the scientific method (that I know of) that states that humans must be able to work out everything about how the universe works. In fact I would be very surprised indeed if that were possible (especially given that humans will become extinct at some point).

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Yablo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:01 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
DSenette wrote:I had that thought too, but I find Mathmannix's interpretation to be more disturbing. If our 'limited minds' and 'available tools' are inadequate for understanding the universe, then it would tend to mean the universe is more like Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu. If our brains can't figure out the universe, than writing the truth of things in a book (another of our 'available tools') won't make it any more comprehensible. Actual exposure to the concepts involved would break our 'limited minds' and result in varying flavors of insanity as the mortal brain tries to reconcile it's limited ability to understand with the neuron-shattering reality behind it all.

While the cynic and poet in me tends to prefer the bleak Lovecraftian view of the universe (as you may be able to tell from the thread in my sig), the philosopher in me leans toward Plato. Our souls are perfect, and as such they have perfect knowledge and understanding, but our bodies and minds are imperfect, and they therefore must interpret and filter. Everyone's filters are set by their experiences and bound by their intellect. Our souls have all the same knowledge and understanding, but our minds pass that through our filters, and so we have vastly differing and varying viewpoints. By exploring those other viewpoints, we can expand our own filters. Also, if we were confronted by the 'neuron-shattering reality behind it all', our filters would ideally help interpret it in a way we can accept.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:13 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:While the cynic and poet in me tends to prefer the bleak Lovecraftian view of the universe (as you may be able to tell from the thread in my sig), the philosopher in me leans toward Plato. Our souls are perfect, and as such they have perfect knowledge and understanding, but our bodies and minds are imperfect,

The philosopher in me (who I will freely admit, is not a very advanced philosopher) leans very strongly away from this from this form of dualism - I see no evidence that the mind and soul are more than abstractions of the workings of the entirely physical brain; but rather than finding this worldview bleak I find it the most astonishingly beautiful idea I have ever encountered. We are part of a universe that spontaneously generates conscious, sentient minds: that's one hell of a trick for a few physical laws and a healthy portion of time to pull off.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:27 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
Yablo wrote:While the cynic and poet in me tends to prefer the bleak Lovecraftian view of the universe (as you may be able to tell from the thread in my sig), the philosopher in me leans toward Plato. Our souls are perfect, and as such they have perfect knowledge and understanding, but our bodies and minds are imperfect,

The philosopher in me (who I will freely admit, is not a very advanced philosopher) leans very strongly away from this from this form of dualism - I see no evidence that the mind and soul are more than abstractions of the workings of the entirely physical brain; but rather than finding this worldview bleak I find it the most astonishingly beautiful idea I have ever encountered. We are part of a universe that spontaneously generates conscious, sentient minds: that's one hell of a trick for a few physical laws and a healthy portion of time to pull off.


Also not a terribly advanced philosopher, and I tend to shy away from the dualism. However I believe Plato or one of his contemporaries suggested that sharing our flawed experiences led us to greater understanding of the "perfect truth". It's an oversimplification, but the idea that different people have understanding of different pieces of the whole, and an open and academic examination of those pieces allows for the understanding of the whole, ultimately leading to improvement of the flawed mortal form (thus justifying Plato's entire field and why people should spend money on it....)

Now whether there's mind/soul dualism or not, this does fly counter to the idea that the universe is unexplainable and unknowable unless <$diety> intrudes and explicitly explains it to us mortals.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:29 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Not to really get into it, but what do you do when your axioms are shown self-contradictory? You can PM me if you want (or not, whatever), and so as to avoid general mod-wrath.
Axioms of magic can't be self contradictory.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:31 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
Whizbang wrote:[citation needed]

How on Earth did you (or anyone) figure out the genetics of people whom we have no direct physical evidence of any kind?


As God created man in His image, it's reasonable for the purpose of the discussion to assume Adam and Eve were the Platonic ideal of man and woman.


It's further possible to assume, according to Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 5:1, and Genesis 9:6 that God is both male and female. English translations--including the one I've cited--tend to refer to God as "he/his/him," but "they/their/theirs/them" pronouns seem more appropriate. Especially given that the word "Elohim" is plural.

A digression, but this was never going to stay on topic anyway.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby doogly » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:33 pm UTC

But what does the Elohist know? Definitely the lesser of two sources.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:37 pm UTC

To add to my statement without merely editing:
mathmannix wrote:Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with only* our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

* - i.e., without God's inspiration and guidance. God is the source of all goodness, truth, wisdom, and knowledge. He wants us to use our minds He gave us, yes, not to wallow in the darkness but to stand in the Light of His Presence. But, to put it in somewhat scientific terms, just because we can make simple machines which (follow simpler Newtonian principles) with our Tinkertoys doesn't mean we understand quantum physics, or ever will. We should marvel at the beauty of the universe, but not try to become its master.

Knowing everything would of course shatter our limited, mortal minds, but once we receive our immortal minds in heaven, we will see everything clearly.

ObsessoMom wrote:It's further possible to assume, according to Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 5:1, and Genesis 9:6 that God is both male and female. English translations--including the one I've cited--tend to refer to God as "he/his/him," but "they/their/theirs/them" pronouns seem more appropriate. Especially given that the word "Elohim" is plural.

To be blunt, God doesn't need genitals. "He" is the traditional pronoun used, and there's really no reason to change it to She just because "She" is equally valid (or really equally invalid.) And of course "It" in English is considered derogatory for a person, much less God. But fine, just as God created man in His image, God created woman in Her image.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:43 pm UTC

@Dauric: I like that viewpoint, even though I'm not sure whether I accept that there is an attainable "perfect truth". I don't think the lack of that makes any practical difference though

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:54 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:To add to my statement without merely editing:
mathmannix wrote:Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with only* our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.

* - i.e., without God's inspiration and guidance. God is the source of all goodness, truth, wisdom, and knowledge. He wants us to use our minds He gave us, yes, not to wallow in the darkness but to stand in the Light of His Presence. But, to put it in somewhat scientific terms, just because we can make simple machines which (follow simpler Newtonian principles) with our Tinkertoys doesn't mean we understand quantum physics, or ever will.
So what? Your assertion that we will never fully understand everything is not contrary to anything in science or in the worldviews most scientists hold.

The process of science only depends on an assumption that we can understand more than we currently do, which is absolutely objectively true, your religious defeatism be damned.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:57 pm UTC

I mean, all modern semi-conductor technology is based directly on quantum mechanics (wouldn't exist in classical physics) and GPS uses relativity but sure, let's pretend we're just at Newtonian toys.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:15 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:@Dauric: I like that viewpoint, even though I'm not sure whether I accept that there is an attainable "perfect truth". I don't think the lack of that makes any practical difference though


I doubt the existence of a 'perfect truth' as well, but I was paraphrasing (my admittedly limited understanding of) classical philosophy so it seemed appropriate. I agree that it makes little practical difference whether such is attainable, as Gmalivuk points out, Science isn't about knowing everything, it's about striving to know more tomorrow than we know today.

gmalivuk wrote: Your assertion that we will never fully understand everything is not contrary to anything in science or in the worldviews most scientists hold.


This is actually the thing I find most deeply religious types don't really understand about science and the people that find it compelling. Science isn't about knowing everything. It's an impossibility as each answer leads to more questions. If we discover the mechanisms behind "String Theory" or whatever the next level deeper is, those mechanisms themselves pose questions by their existence. For the scientist it's about asking the questions and working to find answers to those questions. To the scientist, the practice of science is about the journey, an endless journey, not some intellectual destination or attaining perfection.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Yablo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:@Dauric: I like that viewpoint, even though I'm not sure whether I accept that there is an attainable "perfect truth". I don't think the lack of that makes any practical difference though

It doesn't make any practical difference. It's the quest to attain "perfect truth" that philosophy and religion promote.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:10 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.


Just an FYI: not all Christians believe in Biblical Literalism. Myself for example am a Catholic... the Bible can contain errors with regards to history or scientific knowledge as per the ruling in the Second Vatican Council. I realize not everyone here is a Roman Catholic, but I just wish to remind people that the views towards religion are extremely diverse. To take a parable of a parable... mustard seeds are not literally the smallest of all seeds (Mathew 13:31)... but we read the Bible to understand the metaphor Jesus was trying to communicate.

In any case, science never seeks to understand the whole universe. Science only seeks to understand the universe that we humans can perceive and experiment upon. The realm of genetics (discovered by a Catholic Monk btw) forms a cornerstone of modern evolutionary theory. There is no meta-physical argument needed to discuss evolution, genetics or whatever. Just discuss the facts as they are.

FYI: Evolution, Quantum mechanics, and everything are scientific principles that we humans are able to predict, take advantage of, and use in our tools. Quantum Mechanics need to be understood to create and design lasers, various chemicals, semiconductors, and other very small items. Evolution has been harnessed in AI, proving that the "genetic code" of mutations does indeed progress forward as expected. Finally, knowledge of genes and mutations have led to the creation of many drugs and medical treatments. Evolution, genetics, quantum mechanics... these are all "correct enough" that our machines and inventions work as predicted.

God's truths, whatever they are, will reveal themselves through science. Unless you believe in a malevolent god who "entraps" the life work of legions of scientists by allowing our machines and inventions to work... only to hide the "real truth" from us... IMO such a god is too malevolent and pretentious. I don't believe such a god exists. Or are you the kind to believe that God is testing us in a jackass Jobian fashion by placing dinosaur bones into the earth exactly as predicted by our geological models to test our faith and send a bunch of scientists to hell because of their misunderstandings god himself planted into the ground?

Nah man. Two truths doctrine. What God reveals in science has to match up with what he reveals in faith. We believe in a benevolent God, and a benevolent God will not muck with our science and screw with us. (Although I guess it is hard to believe in a benevolent God if you're still a Biblical Literalist due to the entirety of the book of Job...)
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:21 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
doogly wrote:it is a little fascinating to see what bending you have to do when faced with the preponderance of scientific evidence against creationist accounts, like watching someone really good at limbo, but mostly it is horrifying.

Well, that's really what evolution and most paleontology and astronomy looks like to me. We are starting from a different set of axioms. Mine includes that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, absolute truth. You do not accept this. Yours includes that human beings are capable of figuring out how the universe works with our very limited minds and available tools. I do not accept that.


Just an FYI: not all Christians believe in Biblical Literalism.


I would argue that this isn't strong enough. The overwhelming majority of Christians do not believe in Biblical Literalism. While it's fairly common in the United States (about 3 in 10), outside of that particular country, it's pretty hard to find literalists anywhere else. Neither was it a common view in historic Christianity, only dating to the 18th Century or so.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby krogoth » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:31 am UTC

I never under stood the literalism/non-literalism thing. It's fairly clearly not literal, Adam and Eve though to a little after the exodus are evidently* false, but then we have apostles listing genealogies of mythical characters to Jesus, and it seems unusual at best that the events at his death/resurrection(sun darkening) not mentioned by historians and all the resurrected zombies in Matthew 27:51-53, not even mentioned by either other disciples.

Clearly this is a harry potter/star trek/spiderman fanfic gone haywire. Some real places with maybe some real-ish events(magic healer walking around preforming 'miracles' ), but then with fantasy novelists going a bit more over the top each time they write about the fictional characters, and turning simple tricks into over the top things though exaggeration.

*is that the word I'm looking for?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby sardia » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:51 am UTC

krogoth wrote:I never under stood the literalism/non-literalism thing. It's fairly clearly not literal, Adam and Eve though to a little after the exodus are evidently* false, but then we have apostles listing genealogies of mythical characters to Jesus, and it seems unusual at best that the events at his death/resurrection(sun darkening) not mentioned by historians and all the resurrected zombies in Matthew 27:51-53, not even mentioned by either other disciples.

Clearly this is a harry potter/star trek/spiderman fanfic gone haywire. Some real places with maybe some real-ish events(magic healer walking around preforming 'miracles' ), but then with fantasy novelists going a bit more over the top each time they write about the fictional characters, and turning simple tricks into over the top things though exaggeration.

*is that the word I'm looking for?

It's just an extreme version of religious people willfully being ignorant. We don't bring it up because it's like telling children that Santa Claus is your parents. Except those children have guns, and money...which makes attacking those beliefs quite a challenge. You either look like an asshole for bullying this poor retard about his stupid beliefs, or you get run out of town by people with pitchforks. Most of the time, both happen.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:09 am UTC

Using the phrase "poor retard" is offensive in the extreme.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby DSenette » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:16 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:But they didn't have a priest nor witnesses, so they couldn't have been.

God Himself married them, and He definitely trumps priests who act in His name.

Regarding the implied incest of their children: Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, genetically pure. Not in some racist Nazi way, but free from genetic mutation. So there were no recessive genes alleles for dementia or mental retardation or stunted growth; those were due to random mutations, probably a dozen or more generations later.

so, if we assume this is true...and assume that this is actually how genetics works...what did he do with noah and his family? reset the genes? the concept of original sin is kind of like shingles....if you've had sin once, it's already inside youtm. so, if sin caused all the genetic problems of incest....how did noah and his kids repopulate the earth?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby speising » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:07 pm UTC

I have a hard time understanding how someone can believe in Adam and Eve (=> creation, not evolution) and at the same time in random mutation (=>change over time).

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ahammel » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:03 pm UTC

speising wrote:I have a hard time understanding how someone can believe in Adam and Eve (=> creation, not evolution) and at the same time in random mutation (=>change over time).

It helps to completely misunderstand what "evolution" means.
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