In other news... (humorous news items)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:55 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Yes and homosexuals can be cured. Bah! Being ignorant isn't a defect or a disability. And defining a behavior that you don't like in that fashion is analogous to what people who say homosexuality can be cured are doing. Making it up.


Imagine having been beaten senseless every time you questioned any teaching about the bible. Imagine now that you have a psychological condition that so much as considering that a pastor or such could be wrong brings intense psychological pain. How is this not a disability?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:02 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Yes and homosexuals can be cured. Bah! Being ignorant isn't a defect or a disability. And defining a behavior that you don't like in that fashion is analogous to what people who say homosexuality can be cured are doing. Making it up.


Some folks do claim to be "cured" by such indoctrination camps. Not a great many, certainly. But surely you accept that these camps do have an effect. For instance, they're pretty horrible in terms of provoking suicides. Me, I view the claimed "successes" as unfortunate individuals who probably have a lot of issues as a result.

The issue is not just that those folks "make things up". Plenty of folks make shit up. But the dude who really believes in aliens probably isn't going to force you through training in an attempt to alter your mind. Those sorts are mostly harmless cranks. The gay-curers and the young earth creationist folks are not this. They actively view children as weapons to be molded in service to a culture war.

We have institutions that require faculty pledges to discard evidence that clashes with their worldview. That's...beyond making shit up. That's actively opposing learning. Pre-emptive measures are taken to avoid seeking the truth. That's not a rational mindset. Feel free to talk to your friendly psychologist about if such patterns are healthy, and should be promoted.

Imagine having been beaten senseless every time you questioned any teaching about the bible. Imagine now that you have a psychological condition that so much as considering that a pastor or such could be wrong brings intense psychological pain. How is this not a disability?


Spare the rod, spoil the child. The same subset that embraces creationism also loves the crap out of fundamentalist religion(no coincidence there), and of course, embraces corporal punishment.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:05 pm UTC

Yes, prolonged child abuse (or abuse of any kind) can definitely have serious mental health effects, but (1) no one was talking about years of child abuse until just now and (2) PTSD is not the same thing as mental retardation.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:07 pm UTC

And I happen to know a creationist who's parents weren't abusive. He's my brother-in-law, so I happen to know his life's story pretty well. Just because you have creationists as parents doesn't necessarily mean that said parents believe in corporal punishment.

Yes, my sister (his wife) and I find his creationism stance baffling, but yeah its a different in opinion that honestly has no major effects on many things (his work, his school, etc. etc.). He's never told me if he was young earth or old earth creationist... but he's also been pretty quiet about the subject now that he knows that my sister and I are evolutionists.

The issue is not just that those folks "make things up". Plenty of folks make shit up. But the dude who really believes in aliens probably isn't going to force you through training in an attempt to alter your mind. Those sorts are mostly harmless cranks. The gay-curers and the young earth creationist folks are not this. They actively view children as weapons to be molded in service to a culture war.


That issue is tangential to creationism. As noted, my brother in law is rather quiet about the issue (which leads me to think that he's young earth creationist and just doesn't want to admit it to me). But my sister is probably going to raise him hell if her kids are to grow up young earth creationist.

I think we can agree that anti-intellectualism is harmful. But there are plenty of creationists who aren't in that camp.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:11 pm UTC

I love how teaching Wrong Thinking (particularly in a field that has literally no impact whatsoever on daily life unless you are a paleontologist) equals inflicting mental handicap equals abuse. That's definitely a sensible view of things and not ridiculous extremism.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:36 pm UTC

It is not merely failing to believe in evolution, though I feel safe saying that many a biologist would say that overlooking such basic concepts in education is unwise in itself, but in the training of an individual to believe falsehood, and to not be able to even be able to properly converse with the opposition. They go beyond mere anti-intellectualism to actively teaching folks to misunderstand what the opposition is saying.


That has not been my experience actually. Creationists have "trained responses" to "evolutionists", and I bet that most people will not be able to beat them at their own game on their own turf. IE: They tend to focus on Charles Darwin particularly (which is why I gave my advice to keep Darwin from becoming a "prophet of evolution". He isn't one, he's a scientist and was wrong on some issues). In any case, strawmen arguments are common in grade school and even high-school education (see... all of history and social studies). From "Christopher Columbus discovered America" to "Native Americans used the entire Buffalo", there are plenty of lies and falsehoods taught in general education. I don't believe that these facts actively harm my brain however.

My experience with Creationism Literature is mostly aimed at arguments taught as basic facts from my high school education. My high-school biology teacher for example, explained that carbon dating the fossils is enough to prove that evolution happened.

This factoid is false however, and set me up for a bad encounter with a particular old-earth creationist. It was this creationist who explained to me that carbon dating has an effective lifespan of only a few thousand years. Later, I verified his argument... and carbon dating only has an effective range of ~50,000 years or so. Evolution happens on a scale longer than what carbon dating is effective, and is thus mostly a history tool as opposed to a biological one. The other forms of radioactive dating aren't too useful either, since Uranium, lead, or isn't found in living things very often.

Which means, "dating" fossils more or less relies on a geochronology. (The rocks around this fossil are dated to be X years old, therefore this fossil is likely X years old). Creationists tend to attack geochronology itself (at least old-earth creationists do)... not actually the dating methods used to date the rocks found in the ground. And then the argument becomes a mess after that.

Sure, 90% of creationists aren't going to be making arguments like this... but your standard evolutionist on the street probably won't be able to tell you whether or not the carbon dating argument is bunk or not. At the end of the day, the arguments that make up evolution... on both sides... are filled with falsehoods. From Charles Darwin's original viewpoints of pangenesis, to misunderstandings of carbon dating... there is enough misinformation out there for a serious Creationist to attack.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Whizbang » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:45 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote: From Charles Darwin's original viewpoints of pangenesis, to misunderstandings of carbon dating... there is enough misinformation out there for a serious Creationist to attack.


It is important to note that attacking misinformation about Evolution is not the same as attacking Evolution itself. "Evolutionists" should be more than happy if others attack misinformation.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:49 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:I love how teaching Wrong Thinking (particularly in a field that has literally no impact whatsoever on daily life unless you are a paleontologist) equals inflicting mental handicap equals abuse.
No. Pay attention.

I used the word "abuse" to describe things like the following:
Tyndmyr wrote:Spare the rod, spoil the child. The same subset that embraces creationism also loves the crap out of fundamentalist religion(no coincidence there), and of course, embraces corporal punishment.
CorruptUser wrote:Imagine having been beaten senseless every time you questioned any teaching about the bible.
CorruptUser wrote: If someone suffered from PTSD where being taught by anyone triggered horrible flashbacks, just because it's not biological the way dyslexia is doesn't make it any less disabling.


Being beaten regularly is most definitely abuse, anything that causes PTSD is almost certainly abuse.

Also, even if creationism is being taught in a totally non-abusive manner, it still creates and anti-intellectual and anti-scientific perspective that is dangerous in all aspects of life where a bit of critical thinking is necessary. Creationism correlates with things like global warming denial and anti-vaccination perspectives that really do have far-reaching consequences well beyond the daily lives of paleontologists.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:52 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote: From Charles Darwin's original viewpoints of pangenesis, to misunderstandings of carbon dating... there is enough misinformation out there for a serious Creationist to attack.


It is important to note that attacking misinformation about Evolution is not the same as attacking Evolution itself. "Evolutionists" should be more than happy if others attack misinformation.


While that is true, when a creationist "wins" in a debate, they solidify their viewpoint even more. Its these smaller arguments and smaller wins that the rational creationists are likely beating on a day-to-day basis. It is surprisingly rare to come across an evolutionist who can actually hold his (or her) own in a debate.

Losing an internet debate due to the carbon dating thing was my foray into this Creationism vs Evolutionism subject many years ago. Underestimate the debate skills of others at your own peril! You might find yourself getting owned. And again, Charles Darwin is a trap. Avoid it and make sure your debate opponent understands that the theory of evolution has grown since it's introduction in the 1800s.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:02 am UTC

Whatever Ben Carson or Creationists are or aren't, they don't get a pass because bad things happened to them or because they were fed information that is wrong by my lights. They have the capacity to know. And the capacity to find the data. My son has Downs and that is what it is. Ben Carson has several degrees, if he chooses to ignore what he has been taught then it is on him.
gmalivuk wrote:Also, even if creationism is being taught in a totally non-abusive manner, it still creates and anti-intellectual and anti-scientific perspective that is dangerous in all aspects of life where a bit of critical thinking is necessary. Creationism correlates with things like global warming denial and anti-vaccination perspectives that really do have far-reaching consequences well beyond the daily lives of paleontologists.
And I know people who shouldn't be let loose without a leash. But that isn't the way it works. Describing them as "retards" or trying to imply they are somehow disabled is BS. Ben Carson is dangerous because he's plausible. Attack his policies, fear those and make other voters fear them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:23 am UTC

Have you paid any attention whatsoever to the position I've been taking this entire time?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:31 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:I love how teaching Wrong Thinking (particularly in a field that has literally no impact whatsoever on daily life unless you are a paleontologist) equals inflicting mental handicap equals abuse.
No. Pay attention.

I used the word "abuse" to describe things like the following...

I thought commodorejohn was responding to the people you're quoting, not to you.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:17 am UTC

But they didn't describe teaching wrong thinking as abuse, they described actual abusive actions. I don't know if they think those always or usually go hand-in-hand with teaching creationist bullshit, but even if they do, it's the actual abuse that counts as abuse, not the creationism.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:49 am UTC

I was responding to the claims that only things that are biological are "retardation". No, psychological disorders including those from trauma are "retardation".

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:53 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Have you paid any attention whatsoever to the position I've been taking this entire time?
Yes. You were a launching point, not the focus. On this rare note we are in agreement. I took commodorejohn comments as sarcasm.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:57 am UTC

You are not being funny.
I come here for funny news and find you chatting about something that has become serious news in the US.

The people that are Creationists are a fairly diverse group.
And; That bunch of people can do a lot of damage.

I swear; Holds hands in a serious vow position. One open palm out the other over my heart.)
And; Mean! Holy Fuck! I have had members of the Creationists Movement turn Mean on me.

Sometimes it looks like a way to keep the people of the US divided among themselves.
It also serves to keep the people of the US divided against European Intellectuals.

When faced with snotty Creationists that have worked and kissed ass into positions of power over other people,
I am not allowed the luxury of a "You lead your life; I'll lead mine." attitude.

The US has some very serious problems.
The strength and unity of the anti-intellectual creationist movement is a symptom of something else and it is serious.

The chant, Death to Baby Killers! Death to Evolutionist! Atheists are Satan! Death to them!"

Is hovering just under the surface.
Some of those people frighten me.

A working RN can be a young earth creationist; No harm done.
Working Police can be young earth creationists; No harm done.

Working Social Workers can be a young earth creationists; No harm done.
Yet; When empowered and working together, there is harm done.

Such passion these people have.
These people are so easily led.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:43 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:I thought commodorejohn was responding to the people you're quoting, not to you.

A bit of both. I wasn't quite clear enough with what I was responding to, and I didn't parse it carefully enough. My apologies. My intended target was more the general propositions being put forward here that A. teaching Wrong Thinking is "dangerous" or harmful (a claim I have never, ever, ever seen made in any other context than either the veiled implication or the outright statement that it ought to be suppressed,) and B. most creationists are crazed, child-beating whackjobs (which I can only attribute to either sampling bias or profoundly bad luck, as I've known dozens of creationists who are perfectly nice people, whatever you think of their beliefs,) but primarily A.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:27 am UTC

Not all Wrong Thinking is equal, and when the wrong thinking is creationism, with its inherent opposition to science and critical thinking, I am absolutely comfortable describing that as dangerous, for a variety of reasons including the two I've already mentioned.

Opposition to critical thinking means opposition to a reliable ability to tell when someone is lying to you. Of course teaching that is a dangerous influence.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:11 am UTC

Of course you are, because it's the Others who are "dangerous" and not you. But you'd be singing a different tune if it were the Others talking about how you're the "dangerous" one, no doubt with some rationalization that makes just as much sense to their way of thinking as yours does to you. It's astonishing to me how few people understand this, when practically all of history has been a lesson in the various guises that line of thinking can take.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Quercus » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:17 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, psychological disorders including those from trauma are "retardation".


No, no they are not (a few could be if they sufficiently affect a child's intellectual development, but most are not). I say this not as a political or PC viewpoint, but as a point of fact based on the criteria that are actually used to diagnose mental retardation:

Psychology Today wrote:Mental retardation (MR) is a condition diagnosed before age 18, usually in infancy or prior to birth, that includes below-average general intellectual function, and a lack of the skills necessary for daily living. When onset occurs at age 18 or after, it is called dementia, which can coexist with an MR diagnosis. Intelligence level as determined by individual standard assessment is below 70, and the ability to adapt to the demands of normal life is impaired.

Anyone who tests above 70 on an IQ test does not suffer from mental retardation by definition. They may suffer from other psychological or neurological disorders, but unless they meet the criteria above it is not retardation as we currently understand and use the term. I mean wikipedia even says:

Because of its specificity and lack of confusion with other conditions, the term "mental retardation" is still sometimes used in professional medical settings around the world, such as formal scientific research and health insurance paperwork.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:30 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:But they didn't describe teaching wrong thinking as abuse, they described actual abusive actions. I don't know if they think those always or usually go hand-in-hand with teaching creationist bullshit...

That seems to be what's implied when you challenge what they say about creationism, and then they defend their claim by suddenly talking about physical abuse. As you pointed out originally, nobody was talking about abuse until then.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Zamfir » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:10 am UTC


Time to move this discussion to a creationism thread.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:43 pm UTC

Created separate thread over in SB for responses, this is kinda long, yeah. Hopefully, someone can move stuff there.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Yablo » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:42 pm UTC

To (hopefully) move things back toward the humorous ... I found this.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34118482

Apparently there's such a thing as a robot ethicist, and one such ethicist is calling for a ban on sex robots. Also ...
Sex dolls already on the market are becoming more sophisticated and some are now hoping to build artificial intelligence into their products.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:12 pm UTC

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -from-1648

TL;DR: Yale receives museum artifact of 1648 "Perpetual Bond" on some parcel of land owned by "de Stichtse Rijnlanden" in Netherlands. Yale has decided to call up said organization to demand their bond money.

Yale, which has an endowment of $23.9 billion, paid 24,000 euros to acquire the bond in 2003 as an artifact. The university hasn’t been paid interest since the acquisition, according to the agency. The bond was issued to pay for a small pier in the Netherlands’s Lek river.


At this point, the money is small enough that I think they're doing it mostly for the symbolic meaning of having the "oldest recorded bond still active"... like some sort of Guinness world record or something. In any case, Yale is receiving 136.20 euros for their bond.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:02 am UTC

Now that is the kind of content that I come to this thread for.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Zamfir » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:55 am UTC

I pay water maintenance taxes to the Stichtse Rijnlanden. This little "joke" is going to cost me 0,0002 cent. And more for every g*****n year until I die, or move.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:59 am UTC

You'd better hope that pier was worth it.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Carlington » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:05 am UTC

The rent is 0.0002 damn high.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:08 am UTC

I'm pretty sure the linked article got its numbers wrong. The bond interest is 25 guilders, which is €12.33. I have no idea where the €136.20 figure comes from, but it's clearly absurd, since that would mean an interest rate over over 25%.

It's pretty awesome though. Apparently bonds were actually invented by the Dutch water boards. The is the 5th oldest one, but the oldest one was issued by the same water board (well actually nearby one, but they have since then merged).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby firechicago » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:15 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm pretty sure the linked article got its numbers wrong. The bond interest is 25 guilders, which is €12.33. I have no idea where the €136.20 figure comes from, but it's clearly absurd, since that would mean an interest rate over over 25%.

I believe they're asking for back payments for the whole time they've owned the bond, so 11 or 12 years worth of payments.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:19 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm pretty sure the linked article got its numbers wrong. The bond interest is 25 guilders, which is €12.33. I have no idea where the €136.20 figure comes from, but it's clearly absurd, since that would mean an interest rate over over 25%.


2004 to 2015 would be 11 years. 11 * 12.33 == 135.63. Which is "close enough" to the quoted value of 136.20.

Yale acquired the artifact in 2003. So if the board hasn't payed in 11 years, then Yale probably has the right to demand 11 years of interest?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:33 am UTC

Putin, Berlusconi, and a bottle of 250 year-old Crimean Wine

Putin and Berlusconi decided to uncork a bottle of 240 year-old wine and make a toast to giant egos and pissing people off (I'm extrapolating on that last bit).

Problem? The wine was owned by the Ukrainian government prior to Russian annexation--which means in Ukraine's view, they still own it. So of course they absolutely flipped out over the fact that Putin and Berlusconi drank it on them.


But seriously? Putin, Berlusconi, and 240 year-old allegedly-stolen wine. There has to be a goldmine of humor in there.

Mutex
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mutex » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:15 am UTC

There are bigger injustices against the Ukrainian people Putin has committed recently.

Still, amazing to think of all the history that bottle of wine has gone through. All the wars, empires rising and crumbling, all the changes and revolutions that happened to that region in all that time. And then it gets drunk on a whim by a pair of pricks.

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Djehutynakht
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:27 pm UTC

Yeah.. it had a pretty inglorious end.

However, it does remind me of a parable by Khalil Gibran

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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:35 pm UTC

Local news for me, but hate crime at mosque brings different groups together. It looks like some nut was trying to get the Muslim community to attack the Jews, it was spray-painted in hebrew letters that don't actually mean anything in hebrew, because the guy apparently couldn't be half-assed to use Google-Translate.

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addams
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:18 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:Yeah.. it had a pretty inglorious end.

However, it does remind me of a parable by Khalil Gibran

Thank you.
Pleasant old fashioned reading.
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KnightExemplar
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:05 pm UTC

Well... its the thought that counts kid.

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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:09 pm UTC

But how do we know that none of the refugees are creepers?


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